Hard Light Happiness?

Discussion in 'War Room (Powers, Artifacts, & Builds)' started by SixSigma, Jul 28, 2017.

  1. CaptainColdJr007AKAFreeJohnson Committed Player

    It's because for over like 80% of the revamp testing phase, there was a fan bug that was making hl parse above average. When that bug got fixed, hl went down to average with extreme power cost. Rifle tap was nerfed at the end of the testing phase. And any combos that do CC in dps stance get a damage reduction. Notice that Impact and Ram are the only powers for ranged 3 targets that don't have a damage reduction with Ram being faster than Impact along with the fact that Impact doesn't actually combo into anything good for 3 targets either. Even though Ram is a 200 power cost, it hits harder than Fan after that nerf took place even though it's a 300 because of CC. Ram->Whip is actually the strongest combo for midrange, Ram->Fan is for further back out of whip range and if you clip fast enough, it's actually 10 times* before chompers. Fan was originally your second clipping tool and because of it you could use Fan as well as Snap on 3 targets but both are gone. Light Claws was strong at the start of revamp, but took 4 trolls to power Light Claws -> Final Claw clip Ram->Whip because power out was so horrible from trolls. They reduced the power cost, but because of the damage formula, they nerfed the damage and it was trash after that. Spamming Light Weight (the actual spin at melee did damage) and clipping it with Ram->Whip was actually the highest meleee damage for HL until version 1.7+ where it got nerfed. Chainsaw got a buff at the very end which is why it took over for HL Melee but for content it doesn't hit everything because of it's limited range so most of the time you are just using Ram->Whip or just Ram->Fan. HL had a power cost issue at the start with excessive damage, then had a bug cause a severe damage nerf to have a power cost issue with average damage.

    That bug caused HL to lose any of it's clipping for 3 target damage. I believe Mighty even posted several charts talking about how the HL combos were all weaker than Ram->Whip and several times footage of the HL power cost problem were shown. Nothing was done for HL individually as a result of this feedback. All of the changes to HL's power management were done via changing skill points/mods which affected every power, which didn't help relatively. HL can still burn power the fastest but now that Ram->Whip is the strongest for 3 targets, any clipping of 300's is wasted power and a damage loss. And for single target where you can use some of the 300's to do more damage, you don't have the power management to clip them consistently because HL was never addressed individually for its power cost. You'll run dry within 30 seconds even with 2 trolls for some of the better single target rotations.

    P.S. - So you guys have an idea of the trade off's that we had to deal with for 7 months for dps when you talk about possible changes.

    shifting CC to troll stance only -> damage increase
    adding CC to dps stance -> damage decrease
    lowering power cost -> damage decrease
    increasing power cost -> damage increase

    Haven't been able to get them to budge to break that formula in the entire time. The closest we've gotten is some powers now being considering "melee" and they got a small damage buff from that.

    P.S.S. - You spec for Might/Pow in your sp. Mods can be straight Might or Might/Pow. Forgot to answer that question.
    • Like x 9
  2. SixSigma Well-Known Player

    Thanks for the insight and details about what happened during testing. Glad to know people were trying and sad to hear the devs disregarded the individual changes to what seems to be an "ease of coding" issue. I'm not gonna lie, I've taken the easy route myself with programing but I've also never developed a game, lol.

    So overall what your saying is that in attempting to keep the combo damage on par, the power use was just too much. Did you guys actually get to see what the formula was in calculating the damage per ability used as a construct vs pfft?
  3. CaptainColdJr007AKAFreeJohnson Committed Player

    Not that I am aware of, but if you are referring to PftT as in the infinite combo, that's done like maybe 1/2 to 1/3rd of the damage of clipping rotations since revamp came out. That's not even an option for viable dps, that's last case scenario for solo/duos and even then doing weapons combos would out damage that. Mighty might have the numbers you're looking for, prob not a formula, I only have parsing experience.
    • Like x 1
  4. SixSigma Well-Known Player

    I only have parsing numbers myself. I tested many a load out and so far clippng is the only viable option when using powers. Pure weapons mastery does get close but I've found higher numbers with weapon mastery using gadgets, strange enough. My only concern now is if the devs are going to give the construct combos more attention to allow them to be just as viable as clipping.

    Not knowing the formula and going off of your example, what the devs have said, and the way it plays currently... it seems that there are 2 hard numbers for base damage, one being adjusted for cast time and the second being for power cost. Using these 2 numbers a base damage amount per ability is calculated when being triggered from the tray. What it appears to be doing right now is that when creating a construct combo using certain abilities, the power cost base damage is no longer being calculated and all we see is the cast time base damage from there on out.

    Before I swapped to Gadgets it seemed that using LB from the tray would hit harder than LB being the 3rd chain in a combo. I can't test it anymore since I swapped powers but if someone could that'd be good to know. Knowing this could mean that maybe there are some abilities and that DO calculate correctly and that CAN be chained so that at least some kinda of combo is still viable.
    • Like x 1
  5. CaptainColdJr007AKAFreeJohnson Committed Player

    As a side note, there's a clipping damage penalty if I remember right. And the damage from combos across the board have been re-done like 4-5 times xD Gonna see if I can find the post.
    • Like x 2
  6. CaptainColdJr007AKAFreeJohnson Committed Player


    • Like x 2
  7. Green Lantern Fadi Loyal Player

    I'm happy af!!! I can use what ever I want :D
    • Like x 3
  8. Mighty Committed Player

    Oh for Pete's sake. Ok. I'm going to try and explain this again. Thought exercise time. Please, stop formulating your reply until you have read the last word in this post. Please, read and try and let sink in what I am telling you before you hit reply.

    1. When infinitely comboing, almost all of one's damage comes from construct combos.

    2. If infinite combos were to be made competitive along other types of dps with light or other powers, then construct combos would need to be buffed.

    3. If construct combos are buffed to the degree that infinite combos do damage on par with other competitive dps, the construct combos will need to be buffed to the point of being tagged with a cost of 200- 300- or more.

    4. Right now, casting a 200, comboing to a 100, and clipping with a 200 puts light on the edge of sustainable power consumption.

    5. Casting a 200, comboing to a 200 or a 300, and clipping with another 200, and doing that 10 times every 12 seconds would not be sustainable. Clipping would be significantly curtailed. That's assuming we'd be allowed to clip, which we likely would not, because ...

    6. The damage output of casting a 200, comboing to a 200 or 300, and clipping with another 200, for what little time a person had power to do so, would be enormous and would create a huge imbalance between light and the other powers. The devs understand this. They would not let us push extreme damage at extreme consumption in such a way, and the tradeoff would be dovetails and removing the ability to clip combos. This is not a Mighty thing. This is not me just making rules up. This is the developer tradeoff calculus.

    7. Can I make it any more clear and plain than this?

    8. Fire up that response about how I don't understand.
    • Like x 3
  9. SixSigma Well-Known Player

    Wow, so it totally appears that maybe it should have been kept prec based for construct combos as the calculations might have been easier to maintain. I totally understand why it was changed but maybe keeping it prec for construct combos and leaving clipping for the PftT would have been the better option for the power. But at this point it would just be going back and forth with HL which I'd be patient for but A LOT of community would not be, lol.

    Though honestly, that would have been nice to have both Combos and Clipping be viable options whether it was white or yellow numbers. As much as I loved combos it wasn't fair to all those who loved clipping.
    • Like x 2
  10. SixSigma Well-Known Player

    Funny enough I just gathered all that in the links that Cap posted but thanks for the reiteration. I didn't know they weren't able to adjust the power cost enough. I totally think it can still be done to have the best of both worlds without making it grossly unbalanced compared to other powers.
  11. Mighty Committed Player

    We asked about it after the changes to construct fan earlier this month, and after we tested combo powers vs. hybrid and weapons playstyles and saw how strong precision/weapons was, but a return to precision unfortunately wasn't practical at that stage because it would have required recalculating damage not just for hard light, but for balance sake the other combo powers as well.
  12. Rebel230 Well-Known Player

    I really want to thank you for this response. So for speccing my points, I should choose powers as my focus, then crit and then might. And my mods should be ne might, might and power. I prefer to play at range so would my current best set up be chompers into fan/ ram? I just think its sad that we have access to all the powers but to be effective we really only use 2. Also, what am I looking for to restart this rotation so to speak? When/ why would I go back to chompers fan ram? Does the PI reset?
    • Like x 2
  13. SixSigma Well-Known Player

    Was it ever suggested to take an adjusted prec calc formula modified for might base numbers for the combo side. I feel like that would have been the first thing tested, but I just don't know if it was. This way they wouldn't have to change the might work they've done already but just use a separate "triggered" formula when a combo was being used past a specified number of powers in a chain.

    Granted, I say that like it's easy. I know first hand, when it comes to any coding it's not, but when it comes to programing... there's always a way.
  14. CaptainColdJr007AKAFreeJohnson Committed Player

    yes. and chompers sets up your pi for 12 seconds for 10% damage increase on your combos. So after like 9-10 combos depending on clipping speed, 12 is up and you use chompers again to refresh the pi. chompers is also a 100 power cost move instead of a 200 like ram and it isn't using a combo clip after so its breathing room to slow down your power consumption for a second ever so often. Originally back when fan was good, I could do
    - chompers -
    - hb solar flame -
    - ram -> whip - clip - fan - rifle tap
    - ram ->whip - clip - ram -> whip - fan - rifle tap (a few times)
    then back into chompers. chompers would be 100 compared to 200/300 and because it stopped my combo, I would do a weapon combo afterward for power regeneration instead of say hitting fan->impact when i want to use a hb combo but that was back before they added the superpowered mastery when all we had was what is now called "hybrid mastery".

    Same principle still applies even if rifle tap and fan are gone if you're looking for power management outside of raids.
  15. The Horn'd One Well-Known Player

    My suggestion: Fill out all your skill points to Weapons. ALL the weapons. Grind to get the highest damage weapons available. Choose Hybrid so that you get the best benefits from that skill tree. Since you're HL, take Light Barrier from the Iconics list; swap out Fan if you already have it in your Loadout. It will still be there in your combos, which is fine. Get Robot Sidekick if you don't already have it & stick it on #1. YES, Chompers is always a safe bet & does help when attacking.
  16. LT Schmitt Committed Player

    I must be missing something but with 260sp I can run combo all day with no problems
  17. TheDrone Well-Known Player

    Maybe I'm wrong, but I always was under the impression that those infinite combos were kinda the point of the HL Power. The fact that they made those combos possible indicated (to me at least) that it's what we were expected to do. Not that we had to do them, but it's at least theoretically something that they wanted us to do. Making that no longer the case just seems like they've fundamentally altered the HL Power in a way that loses much of its uniqueness. It would be like suddenly removing all of the animal transformations from Nature. It's something fundamentally unique to the Nature Power.
    • Like x 1
  18. AbBaNdOn_IGN Committed Player

    I just tried my first combo power post revamp , Rage, and uuuugh!. Totally dreading trying HL and celestial now. I can PFFT sorcery now but not combo powers lol.

    Combo inputs should not cost power, that is beyond stupid.

    Executing combos to thier fullest should reward the most damage since your taking the most risk of being interrupted.

    But in any event, im sad i cant use these powers like i did Pre-revamp.
    • Like x 1
  19. Greenchain Well-Known Player

    I could give a large rodents hindquarters about clipping vs Infinite Combo. I've had to relearn combos as the game has changed and frankly my dear I dont give a damn if I have to learn another. It is what it is here and now and what we all have to live with.

    My 2 cents on revamp (Note I did not participate in this long round of testing. I did a lot during the Tunso Testing debacle. The results of that and dramatically less time due to a job change did not leave the necessary time to dedicate to proper testing.)


    1. Love having all the powers unlocked. This was a great idea, at least in concept
    2. Simple Stat trees (although speccing near 300 SP is quite tedious for two armories on multiple toons especially on Console)
    3. The idea of Might Combos, still a bit iffy on the application but seems to drastically narrowed (not eliminated) the Might vs Precision powersets.
    4. I am really liking LWS. Neat animation, SC generator and PI all in one.


    1. The mega nerf to support role stats
    2. Still seem to be some FOTM powers (Rage, Earth I've observed so far)
    3. The only way to increase Power from SP is to also buy Might. Not a huge problem if you are well north of 250 SP but maybe that is Working as Intended (TM)

    HL specifc issues:

    1. Again, no issue with clipping but even with PI up, I dont feel like Melee combos are hitting for the kind of risk vs reward they pose. Whether in Live areas or on Test dummies, it looks like they are hitting for about 1/2 of range combos. The initial casts don't seem so bad and maybe the first tap combo but taps 2-4,5 are trash.

    2. PftT users got screwed on Inspiration yet again. Where did our critical strike chance go? Best I can come up with is to install the Crit head mod and pray a little.

    3. Avair IIRC made a big deal about SC's being important. Well, offensively we got a SC that leaves you stuck in animation, unable to move but a perfect target, that does decent damage a couple of times on a full bar or a SC that kinda sucks and completely drains your SC. Cut their costs in 1/2 and I could deal with them

    I have HL, Ice, Celestial and Atomic at endgame and a Mental and Sorcery I work on when I have time. Haven't reset my Atomic yet. Of the three I have retooled, I think Celestial has benefited the most. As usual, HL is a few tweaks (buff melee attacks, grant Inspiration a Crit bonus even if you have to increase the cost, lower SC costs) and I think HL would be fine if not borderline great.

    HL has always required a slightly higher situational awareness and the revamp doesn't change that and if anything has increased it. There should be a reward for the effort involved.
  20. Mighty Committed Player

    I think the point was more about personal expression. You could pop a tray ability and combo to a copy of another tray ability. It wasn't until Tunso connected up a bunch of the ranged combos were you able to infinitely combo without eventually lunging the target and being in point blank range.

    Infinitely comboing, however, was never good until Tunso made it an AM. By never good, I mean it was like trying to compare just weapon taps to actually using full weapon combos clipped with abilities. The uniqueness with light has always been the speed with which you can cast the abilities from the tray, combo them, and then clip them. It's that actual uniqueness that posed such a big challenge in balancing the power.