Dev Discussion GU95: Survival Mode Rewards

Just because you want it to happen, doesn't mean it will nor should. It would again be darn beautiful if they could cater their releases to MY personal schedule though, but to expect that to actually happen is another thing entirely.

That depends on the content now, doesn't it? Is the content still in circulation? Then you'll have another go when it comes back around.

I just realized where you posted this..... if you want to talk about seasonal rewards do it here. The statement you quoted was designed to contextualize concerns about SM seasons, not derail the dev feedback thread.

I didn't mean to derail, what i'm addressing is a direct response to YOUR post in THIS thread, regarding a player's expectations on temporary content-releases and rewards whether it's SM or Seasonals. You WERE talking about temporary/limited time-instances in the initial post I first responded to, correct? That post WAS in fact posted in THIS thread, correct?

Yes but you kinda went off exclusively on the non-SM seasonal aspect which is why I redirected you to a thread on that. In the context of SM, since this content isn't coming back and contains BiS combat pets, it is very alienating to people who can't devote the time to get them. I was gone during previous SMs but it didn't bother me because rewards were purely aesthetic. This SM enters Superman's 80th Emblem territory... unless they plan to power creep better combat pets in every SM which would also be a terrible idea.

Edit: The combat pet thing is exacerbated by the fact that one of the pets is an entirely new utility via non-Orbital, unmissable burst damage on a short cd and another is straight up ~30% better than the previous top pets.

Seasonal rewards were only mentioned here because again your initial post that I responded to in THIS thread mentioned Seasonal feats/rewards, I am again merely talking in regards to your expectations regarding content and rewards of this nature.

How do you know that this content ISN'T coming back? Have they officially stated that? If so, I have missed it. If they haven't, the previous SM's in the past serves as a pretty big indicator that we may see this SM-season returning aswell. Of course, we'll have to wait for an official statement on that too.

In regards to the Pets, the Dev who designed them highly hinted during SM-Test Feedback at the possibility of these types of pets and its unique functions making a return in other pieces of content aswell, outside of SM. Of course that most likely means reskins, but with the same Combat functions.

They said that the contents of the left vendor (all purely aesthetic) will return while the contents of the right vendor (heavily non-aesthetic) will not. I'll hold my breath on the pets dealio. I agree with you that if that holds true we'll likely see reskins. That said, that'd be kinda dickish of them as well in that the pets (the practical aspect, not the aesthetics of them) were a big motivator for a lot of people.

Kinda feels like they're in a weird place with SM rewards where they realize they need to do more to motivate the general playerbase to care while still trying to keep it a masochistic slog for the people who want that, which is something of a losing battle on both fronts with the way they tried to approach it with this iteration. Mentioned it in the other feedback thread but the most effective way to fix this would be:

1. Make "normal" SM more approachable to the general playerbase by adding permament checkpoints before every boss, then;
2. Add an "Endless Mode" that unlocks once you clear the final round of normal mode. Endless Mode contains no checkpoints (not even rest stops), has even less downtime between waves, and ends when the group wipes. Alternatively, they could make it "Sudden Death" mode, with no checkpoints and standard elite revive rules (ie. you get one death then you're out). Rewards for this/these modes should be purely aesthetic and comically irreverent and maybe include a different crown/trophy system for w/e group makes it the furthest; and
3. SM content stays permanently available but each "season" is cr capped so it never gets easier. Similarly, "seasonal" rewards get added to the general vendor the same way old open world seasonal events' rewards get added to their own vendors.

This could also be achieved by putting the actual rewards all in lower levels to encourage the purchase of replay badges, leaving higher levels to be purely for epeen for the fraction of the playerbase that cares.

If anything, didn't they mention in the very SM-livestream that the vendor with the Base items and such will remian, while the actual Season SM-vendor will change? Meaning, come Season 2 you'll obviously not have the Season 1-rewards available, as that's exclusive to Season 1. But have they actually officially stated that Season 1 won't returned? If so I again have missed that, if not, we can almost expect a return but again, they'll have to officially announce that too.

How would it be dickish? First you complain about the possibility of never seeing them again, and now it would be dickish if more Combat-pets of this nature would be implemented? Following that logic they should never have made any other Trinket pets aside from the first ones. I don't think it's dickish at all if they were to create more pets of this nature, if anything people would most likely appreciate having more of them, especially in the form of other skins.

SM is designed around a temporary nature and there's a reason for it. Especially so in between episodes to give players something of interest to play when they get tired of the current episode, aswell as giving an extra incentive to work on your character progression. If they stick to that as all previous SM's did, you'll have this Season coming back around for people to play.

Making it permanently available just means people can knock it out, finish off all the rewards they want and like other, old pieces of content it gets forgotten about and slowly turns into a Ghost town unless it somehow stays relevant, of which content of this nature does as it is only up for limited times and makes a return where you can continue the grind where you left off.

I was under the understanding SM seasons don't return, since they're semi-tied to episode flavour. I can't remember where I saw/read/heard that though.

That wasn't what I was getting at, sorry. I didn't mean it'd be dickish that they'd be making more pets/reskins like them. That would actually be far better than locking BiS gear behind a temporary event. I meant it just strikes me as a little disingenuous with the implication that they were tied to a temporary event, prompting players to hella grind for them and buying replays and such. To be completely honest, if I wasn't under the impression these were going away forever (I didn't catch that same reference you mentioned from test feedback) I likely wouldn't have bothered and the only reason I bothered with 30 is because you're already so close at 25. Other people I've played with had similar thinking, though a lot only care about 25 and not 30. Say they'd added these pets to normal content first and then put aesthetic reskins in the SM vendor, that would feel a lot more on the level. The use of pets like this is weird in general since we have no idea how long they'll be BiS for. Sometimes they've had a long life and, more recently, they don't seem to last long.

But it also went away for a long time. I agree with what you're saying but it has to be marketable to survive. They can't devote dev time to something that isn't making money and if the content isn't approachable and fun, it will flounder. This is aggravated by the fact that SM actively detracts from other content (I haven't run a single non-SM thing since it was released I've barely used replays), making the game kinda suck for everyone who can't do SM or who is more interested in the core game. It's also a massive time commitment because of the temporary release, which will lead to player burnout. Also, it would still accomplish all the same goals if it wasn't temporary as they'd still release new "seasons" during the lulls between episodes. That's the whole point of season passes and whatnot in modern gaming, and other games don't remove previous seasons when new seasons are released.

If the specific Seasons were to not return, i'm sure they would have officially announced that much clearer by the very beginning or atleast by now. Until they officially announce that, I feel confident in the guess that they plan on having each Season return, like how the previous SM's worked being cycled through each year.

But the SM-specific pets will most likely not make a return outside of SM, the specific skins still encourage a grind in SM if you want them, while the possibility to get Combat pets of this nature still remains possible in other content. I see nothing disingenous about it imo.

Yes it did, after several years of players getting to run it and earn the rewards, and now it's back with a new Season that also reintroduces the olders base items, so we got covered in both ways. Well, i'd say they pulled off "marketable" with its return, as evidenced by all kinds of player-feedback regarding its rewards lol. IMO it's though it's probably too early to deem it either a success or complete failure until we get more official information about upcoming Seasons, whether they cycle through it as i'd assume they would, etc.

That's true in regards to accomplishing the same goals, except that that goal will diminish with time having all the seasons be a one-time release and then permantently available, as to keeping it on a seasonal rotation. It gives all the more incentive, has the potential to draw more players back during the lulls between episodes and in general. This happens all the time with the Seasonals for example, a player finds incentive to return from his break or what not to keep running the seasonal. This goal won't last as long were all content to just be permantent, so on that regard seasonal content in this fashion better fullfills that purpose.

Actually this isn't uncommon in other games at all, especiallly in MMO's. It's not like DCUO is alone in having Seasonal content/events on rotation, that isn't just permanent at all times. I'm sure you can find this situation in quite a bunch of other games out there.

There really isn't that much non bug-related feedback and it's mostly from a handful of people. A lot isn't overly positive. I agree it's too early to tell but my impression from people ig and on forums is that people doing it mostly just tolerate it, with a small percentage of masochists on the forums wishing it was grindier. It still only applies/appeals to a fraction of the playerbase and it's an even smaller, almost negligible percentage that can actually reap the rewards. It did bring some players back though, so that's good.

Seasonal content is common. Temporary, one-time only content/rewards are less common, especially non-aesthetic ones. I'll wait and see if this SM season comes back but I'm fairly certain it isn't. If it did, it would have to be CR capped and it would be even deader than it is now, which strikes me as being DOA.

Sounds like a matter of what type of feedback one wishes to lift up there lol, because I've seen a lot of feedback praising the return of SM and a lot of the negative feedback i've seen have been from a handful of players and/or usual suspects of which most of them have outright claimed to not be into the type of content that SM is designed around, so there's that.

My impression is that the type of players that SM actually is intended for are mostly enjoying it being back and most of the feedback not necessarily positive are from players who don't even want to run SM because it's not their prefered type of content, but they feel some form of entitlement to get the rewards of which is where a lot of the negative feedback i've seen is coming from. Not all, but a lot.

What is important to remember is the intended purpose this Game mode has, of which have been stated by the Devs own words and how the players this content caters around views it. If players that the content is not necessarily designed around doesn't like it, that doesn't mean that the content and intended purpose of it is a fail, mind you.

But this has yet to be deemed one-time only content, so to claim it is is nothing but incorrect at this point. I'd be highly surprised if they would come out and officially state this, unless they decide to once again cancel SM lol. We'll see.

Again, only a fraction of the playerbase can participate in SM. Fewer care. Fewer still can actually succeed in it. It'll be up to the devs to do the cost benefit analysis but it didn't disappear for years because it was making it rain.

It was again never meant to appease the vast majority of the playerbase so to expect the Game mode to make it rain would be a major mistake not only from a player PoV but from the Devs themselves. What content like SM may accomplish instead of mad cash raining, is play retention, of which it seems to me that it currently does a decent job of doing, especially so when people who otherwise couldn't care less are taking their time to progress through the higher rounds, let alone round 30.

But again, we'll see. One Season is not nearly enough to judge.

I am an outlier in that: a) I had the completionist attitude to care to do two more checkpoints after I got all the pets; b) I'm a tank so grouping is easy and I have direct control over our success rate; c) I had the skill to finish it and the fortune to know similar people; and d) I am under the impression the combat pets are available one-time only and aren't simply going to be reskinned (which was still only enough to get me to care so much about SM exactly this one time, unless it gets major QoL improvements). If anything, SM in its current state makes me enjoy the game less specifically because it does come across as a blatant, unrepentant time suck of low creative/artistic/gameplay value designed specifically to monopolize my time while other aspects of the game's development in which I'm more interested go ignored. This includes fixes for blatant, ongoing bugs and other well known issues, all while SM introduced plenty of new bugs that immediately became a higher priority due to the temporary nature of the content. It has directly resulted in my choosing to spend far less money on the game overall. It ultimately seeks to browbeat people into abstaining from playing anything else (including the rest of DCUO's content) during the breather period between episodes during which it's natural for people to take somewhat of a break before returning when the next episode launches. Similarly, this same retention enhancing effect is already in the game in a far more positive and pleasant way via holiday seasonal events, rewards weekends, and time capsules (which I feel they'd be better off not releasing at the exact same time as new episodes). SM, in its current form, is "clingy."

In regards to d) That impression is directly nullified by the statement on SM Test server-feedback on the matter by the very dev who made those pets.

How is it specifically designed to monopolize your time? Because you happened to like some of the rewards? If you are refering to you being a completionist, that's a choice one makes. If players really wish to be a completionist and get their hands on everything, they should expect a hassle.

These days we seem to have more and more "completionists" within our community, although one ironic catch is that some of these "completionists" are less inclined to go through with the effort and more so interested in going straight for the rewards and shinies. The devs can't just cater around somebody feeling like they have to have everything within the game while at the same time keeping all of it super accessible to fit everybody's convenience. I mean, they could try, and people would land right back here on the forums complaining about how boring the game has become sooner than they'd like to admit. And now i'm not talking about toward YOU in particular, by the way. Just talking in general in regards to the various threads and posts that have covered reward feedback and what not.

Also, it's unfair talking about ongoing bugs and other issues as if that is SM's fault. On that note, why did they even make a new episode? Why is anything at all being released? At this point it just feels like you're using existing bugs in an attempt to scapegoat a particular game mode you otherwise wouldn't care much about. In general I think we can both agree that they need to work on overall stability7maintenance of their game, but conveniently pointing at whatever you personally don't like isn't how this works lol.

But that result is your choice though. Nobody held a gun to your head and told you that you HAD to play SM, correct? You chose to play it, you even stated you beat it. That is a lot of time spent on something you claim to not enjoy or don't want to take part of, that time isn't exactly spent by force.

I've continued to see in-game activity during the duration of SM, but you also seem to forget we are past being in the middle of an episode where most people are being done with the current episode/progression of which leads to a lot of player's being bored aswell. That leads to a dip in activity whether SM is around or not. Wthout SM around however, a lot of players did go on breaks, some because they needed one, many others because of boredom and nothing else to do. Content like SM help keeping players around in times where most people would straight up not be playing.

Also, in terms of that breather period, you must've missed the dozens and dozens of threads and posts adressing complaints in regards to this previously. To you it might be a breather period, to a lot of others it's been like a void where nothing happens. SM filled that void, now it has returned. Anyone who wants a breather period can just take one, I don't understand how one could come to expect a Game company to just stop implementing content just to make sure that certain someone's "gets to breath" rather than just taking a little break if they need one.

Overall I can't help but feeling that your particular complaints wouldn't hold as much weight on you as they currently do, were you to not treat all content from a "Completionist's" point of view.

You said they hinted/implied, not that they made a direct statement of fact. Hence the impression. They have repeatedly, in the past, made direct statements then not followed through so I won't hold my breath on implications.

Because, as you went on to state, it's specifically designed to fill the time between episodes. It's filler content. It's literally one bland room, which mostly already existed, where we fight enemies that already existed, mostly using scripts that already existed. It is the gaming equivalent of a clip show in slow motion, using time wastage as a means of creating faux-challenge.

Manpower is limited. Time and resources are limited. SM is at fault for some of those bugs not being fixed. It isn't the sole perpetrator but SM syphoning off resources does have an impact. I'd be far less cheesed at SM if they'd get their house in order first.

Because those things are actually content, are reflective of the core game, and aren't so easily broken in that it isn't being programmed closer to the cutting edge of gameplay limitations than is advisable given server limitations and light delay. New episodes are the game. Instead of using this time to fix the plethora of broken things, they did SM.... which further highlighted the problem with a lot of broken things.

And its quality has resulted in me withdrawing a good chunk of monetary support while not encouraging me to spend money on the game. Also a choice. "Hey guys, we totally ignored all of your bug reports and complaints and did a thing that exacerbates many of those bugs or makes them even more relevant while introducing new bugs" isn't exactly a solid means of building consumer confidence.

And I continue to see people frustrated by the fact that it's harder to run anything with the players who are around doing SM. I pity anyone trying to level up atm. Without SM around, everyone would have still been here for the summer seasonal and the additions to the episodic vendors.

Or they could fix any of several other things designed to give people additional gameplay options in between episodes.

But unlike your impression, what I'm talking about is an actual Dev-response from the very Dev who created the pets. The dev directly replied in the Test Feedback session in regards to rewards and openly told us he was interested in making similar pets in the future. I'd rather trust that than baseless impressions, but that's just me.

In your opinion. A lot of people do enjoy the challenge that comes out of it, some are only in it for the reward - end result? Both parties will play the content for a reason. Calling it filler content doesn't automatically make it bad content, if filler content is actually needed, you know.

What bugs may that be, that SM is directly at fault for? I again feel like you are conveniently blaming something you don't necessarily hold interest in. Oh I can relate to that feeling sometimes, doesn't mean I can conveniently point at something I don't like and blame that on the various existing bugs and glitches we have. They simply need to hire more people so that they can keep up with everything, tbh.

This is just baseless assumptions you again conveniently use to scapegoat a game mode you don't happen to like. How exactly do you know that SM got priority over X broken things? Again, what lot of broken things?

Yet you spent the time beating all 30 rounds, atleast so you claim. Again with baseless assumptions regarding SM and bugs. Doesn't make sense to me to go on a rant on how bad of a quality it is, yet you go through all 30 rounds trying to act like somebody forced you to do it. Nope, again, you chose to. If you didn't like the experience, you chose to endure it either way.

And again a dip in activity around this time in an episode would be the case even without SM, except that now a lot of those players are still playing DCUO instead of not playing it at all until something new comes along. And so they have. Were you not online during Triple marks? If you didn't see an increase in activity during that weekend i'll call BS right now. People are still running the Summer seasonal on a daily basis, the que pops almost immediately across the 7 toons I run it on.

Doesn't have to be either or. Atleast SM is one returning aspect, one returning aspect is better than no returning aspects. Especially when they seem to have completely given up on the aspect of PvP, or else I would personally keep trying to lobby for that. The devs just don't want to realize just how much player retention lies within investing in PvP. It's a PvE-driven game now, whether we like it or not.

The devs say a lot of things and nothing comes of it... I'll believe it when I see it. And yes, with a small team and limited resources, everything about the game tends to be either/or to the extreme.

To some extent, but on that note you can't claim the contrary until you see it either.