GU50, Tunso Testing, and Player Testing

I'm reading through some of the first post of this thread. But some powers are best at mid range. Electric and Nature are two powers that are meant to be played mid ranged. So how is pointblank going to work with these two using those new testing restrictions? You can't do pointblank in a raid or you're going to drop dead.

The purpose of this post is to show how I collect and crunch the figures of a Tunso Test. Repeat the steps on a Tunso Toon and on a Live Toon. Divide the Live Mean by the Tunso Mean to determine the Mean Scaling. Divide the Live Median by the Tunso Median to determine the Median Scaling. Divide the Live Max by the Tunso Mean to determine the Max Scaling.

Scaling
> Mean: X.XX
> Median: X.XX
> Max: X.XX

Warning: In this post I am sharing a video of me authoring this post. I worry that I'm risking making the forums self-aware.



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Human Melee (Swarm)

Might: 8255
Precision: 2796

Loadout: Savage Growth, Vine Lash, Briar, Harvest, Swarm, Carnage
Weapon: Dual Wield

Rotation
Setup: Savage Growth, Vine Lash, Briar, Harvest/Carnage
Main: 6TapHold->Harvest, 6TapHold->Swarm, 6TapHold->Harvest/Carnage

Sequence
Setup->Main->Main->Main->Main->Main->Main->Main->Main

Range: 18789-24336
Mean: 20236
Median: 19884

[Summary] Damage [10.0s] 14564/s - 145642 total - 319 hits (10497 max) - 76 (23.8%) crits - 8 targets
[Summary] Damage [10.0s] 24336/s - 243363 total - 414 hits (16604 max) - 113 (27.3%) crits - 8 targets
[Summary] Damage [10.0s] 20108/s - 201075 total - 401 hits (13688 max) - 108 (26.9%) crits - 8 targets
[Summary] Damage [10.0s] 18789/s - 187890 total - 422 hits (17071 max) - 92 (21.8%) crits - 8 targets
[Summary] Damage [10.0s] 18862/s - 188617 total - 383 hits (13409 max) - 106 (27.7%) crits - 8 targets
[Summary] Damage [10.0s] 20141/s - 201409 total - 412 hits (13176 max) - 113 (27.4%) crits - 8 targets
[Summary] Damage [10.0s] 19884/s - 198836 total - 384 hits (11289 max) - 93 (24.2%) crits - 8 targets
[Summary] Damage [10.0s] 19537/s - 195367 total - 409 hits (13789 max) - 107 (26.2%) crits - 8 targets

Powers are strongest at melee
Powers are safest at range
Powers are the most ideal mix of strength and safety at midrange

You can certainly pointblank in duos, many alerts, many raid mobs, and a handful of raid bosses (T4 #NeverForget). But the purpose of this thread isn't to try to convince players to melee. It's to get them to understand the maximum, minimum, and ideal damage. It's to get players and devs alike to acknowledge all three. Test for all three. Balance for all three. Then let players do whatever players want to do.

So I got on Test this evening with Electric. Despite putting the toon to Tunso Test stats, my conclusions are the same prior to GU50 going live.

With Max damage and Might 8255 and prec 2796. My rotation to start Electroburst, Electrogenesis, Arc Lightning Voltaic Bolt, Electrocute clip with Wired. I then did HB Solar Flame, AL, VB until E'cute and Wired were off cooldown.

I counted 20 10-second parses, not including the start up. Some were as low as 12K and one was as high as 17K. However the average of all parses worked out to be 14,294 dps.

Just with my pre-GU50 calcalations, I found that Electricity was performing right around the range damage of Fire and Mental.

I could probably yield more damage by forgoing Weapons Expert and putting Tesla Ball in my loadout, however that does not conform to the requirements of Tunso testing.

Electricity needs a buff, plain and simple.

Whoops, I was supposed to use a melee weapon combo - used Staff Overhead Strike - no real change in damage.

Balanced with sorcery there.

I'm sure others (probably including Tunso) are doing the same thing, but this is an easy quote. If you don't include the start-up, you're not seeing the whole picture. You are making the assumption that all powers have the same start-up.

Testing with just the one mod doesn't make very much sense to me. Testing with no white mods at all makes a certain sense for getting base damage numbers and getting a rough comparison. If the powers aren't tested with everything else-- including all the generator mods and proficiencies-- then again you're not seeing the whole picture.

Here's the point, if there's a disconnect with how a Tunso Test is executed and live performance, we're not going to accomplish anything with conjecture-alone. We need the tests to be executed or else we're just talking to ourselves.

Can you try it again using Brawling Haymaker? I've seen that in a Tunso Test jump up to:
Range: 17742/s to 25062/s
Median: 21078/s
Mean: 21288/s

Let me post the details for that test:

Electricity melee test performed according to Tunso speccing: 8255 Might and 2796 Precision. Only using Max Damage mod.

Loadout: Electroburst, Electrogenesis, Arc Lightning, Voltaic Bolt, Electrocute, Wired
Weapon: Brawling

Rotation:
1. Electroburst -> Electrogenesis -> Arc Lightning -> Voltaic Bolt -> Electrocute clipped with Wired
2. Haymaker clipped with Voltaic Bolt
3. Haymaker clipped with Volatic Bolt
4. Haymaker clipped Electrocute clipped with Wired
5. Jump back to Step #2

1 Minute Demo Video:


Results from 5 minute test run
Range: 17742/s to 25062/s - (Toss out the first 10 second parse in Tunso testing)
Median: 21078/s
Mean: 21288/s

I will try. My strategy was to try a 4 hold combo with the intent of letting the dots do most of the damage.

I noticed you were getting a lot of AOE damage from the weapon combo. I got no AOE damage from the staff combo.

I will let you guys do the footwork, but I'm fairly confident that using the Tunso Test (and its definition of melee) will show the powers to be pretty evenly balanced. The problem is players don't actually play the way Tunso's Test expects us to--the whole player-made concept of midrange being the perfect example.

I'm interested in what people's thoughts are on "midrange" in general. I'm going to classify the use of melee AMs at 12.5m as "midrange" for purposes of this discussion. Personally, I never liked the concept of midrange. Here's why:

(1) Being able to use melee AMs at 12.5m completely replaces the need for 25m AMs in many cases. People simply won't use long ranged AMs or they will feel inferior doing it.

(2) It is much more convenient for some powers to have both melee and ranged AMs on one loadout than other powers. For example, Quantum's Time Bomb is essentially a melee and ranged AM combined into one ability. This makes Quantum very flexible. On the other hand, how often do you see Gadgets players with both EMP and Sleep Dart on their loadout? Or Mental players with both Mass Terror and Mass Levitation? Not very often in my estimation.

(3) Some powers are just incapable of utilizing their melee AMs at 12.5m.

I can think of several possible solutions to the "midrange problem" with some being more controversial than others:

Option 1. Eliminate 12.5m as a valid AM range for increased damage. Only have 7m and 25m be relevant to damage associated with AM abilities. Perhaps increase the targetting range of some current 12.5m AM abilities to 25m while also implementing range-dependent damage similar to Time Bomb.

Option 2. Keep 12.5m as a valid range, but create a new category of "midrange" damage for AMs with 12.5m range.

Option 3. Eliminate the damage differential between AMs of different ranges altogether.

Personally, Option 2 is the least appealing to me. As long as midrange exists and does more damage than long range, people will not use long range AMs.

I prefer the option 3 and establish a pattern to the damage, for example, all AM's of all powers regardless of the distance will do 33-34k DPS, any AM that do more damage will be nerf and any AM that do less damage will be buffed and so you reach to balance all the powers in DPS role. Monday, i will do the Tunso testing with HL.

In the same way you feel having midrange makes long range pointless, having no range scaling makes anything but long range pointless. That's the way Celestial is now. There's no reason to get close. You just put yourself in danger and increase your risk of interrupts. I think either option 1 or 2 are better. Option 1 would really be risk/reward, as 7 m is in the boss's face. Option two would be more graded. You would still see less long range, but close range would be the big payoff.

Yep. At first I was going to make that same argument against Option 3 but honestly it might be more nuanced in ways I'm not seeing yet. For example, I didn't know you could increase your dps so much with Electricity by going with melee combos like in Penryn's video. Perhaps not so much with Celestial.. but who knows, lol.

I've started a HL Thread using the "Tunso Testing Method" HERE

Please feel free to critique any way you see fit, and let me know if there is anything I'm missing.

Thank you for the very detailed vid of what you are doing. I was asking for just a vid of you testing not the actual vid of how you figured out the data. I am not one of the players that look at all the "perfered" rotations online to get mine (not saying you are at all just saying that I do not), because of that when people start talking about clipping specific moves and what not it take me a bit to practice the different methods of clipping it to get the best result and then I incorporate that into my own playstyle. Since WM came out I either play from the tray or use WM...not much for the clipping of weapon attacks. So in the Tunso test when he was talking about the different weapon attacks that get clipped and what not I realized that I do not use ANY of them and have not. So I was hoping to see one or some of them in use just to get a feel for what it should look like. I now have that for one of them and thank you.

Like I have said before I am not a PC player so I am use to recording my self and rewatching the vids to get all the data I need, but seeing the combat log in the file will be a big help on the PC so that is a huge plus. I am hoping to put something together for Electricity in the next day or two. I am also hoping to do the dame for Fire since you do not need a weapon attack for its AM I should be able to get that done pretty quick. For electricity however I will probably try to do 2. The first of my playstyle (play from the tray) and a second with weapon attacks incorporated (that one will just take longer).

I have about 3 days left on the legendary so I will try to get it all done before that ends. Fingers crossed

I'd have to say that I'm open to Option 2. My reason here being that some powers "Melee" abilities are not in fact "Melee". Melee should be point blank range only, as in Rage or HL's Melee attacks. That there are abilities used from a range that are considered Melee is a large part of the reason we're seeing some of these powers with the advantages that we do.

7m is still not even point Blank as close as it is. It's almost half way to "Mid" range itself. As for these powers that can stand as far as 12.5m away and still be considered Melee -- this does exactly what you said and eliminates the desirability and utility of Far Range AM's. This becomes an issue when some powers Melee do not have the range flexibilty that others do, and their Range mechanics are still even then on par with range AM's of other powers.

This is why I believe their ought to be an introduction of a Mid Range so that Range AM's can compare with Melee AM's that are otherwise reckless to even consider when in a Raid. While HL (for example) is almost "equal" in terms of Melee damage to Ice, Ice has the ability to increase the distance between the user and the target, while Light Claws cannot be used effectively beyond point blank range.

The need for using AM beyond Mid Range could become a need via mechanics. For example, Point Blank out to 7m is not viable when combating Stompa. When sparring with Kalibak, his attack where he smashes the ground sends quakes out to near Max range. Anything within the very edge of range (where the reticle goes from red grey) is effected.

Lashina has mechanics that punish individuals for being closer then mid range. While players still stick it out, they're at risk. But they still not at the risk of Point Blank Melee (even though they doing "Melee" damage).

So anyway, I feel it'd be more reasonable to to introduce a mid range, and leave melee at anything point blank up to 7m.

Thank you both for doing the leg work. Now I do not feel like I need to try to master a playstyle that I do not like in order to give input.

I also think that it is silly for Electrics damage to go up SOOOO much simply because of the melee attack. It means that our AM has no benifit from getting close at all, you just get to use a stronger weapon attack. When I was testing the Dots that comprise our AM I noticed that our Eburst dot was the weakest of the three and it did not matter which way you stacked them to get to max dot (ie Eburst, Egen, Electirifed....Eburst, Eburst, Electrified......or Egen, Egen, Electrified) The max Dot was always the same strength. It would make sense to me, and I would assume others, that the melee dot should be the strongest while the Full ranged dot would be the weakest. Thus making the way you put your dots together affect the final strength of the Max dot.

I may still do a Tunso Test on my playstyle just to see how it stacks up

Do you mind calculating the Min-Mean-Median-Max from your samples? I have a spreadsheet I can pull your test into if you do. You look in the right range for a Tunso Test. If you could repeat both tests on a toon with the following spec, it'd also help.

10423 Might
3380 Precision <<< Negligible due to no Weapon Attacks
Core Strength, Escalating Might, Max Damage
3 Damage League Proficiencys
160 SP getting All T1 Crit Innates, T2 Might Innates, and any available for WM Damage Innates
4 Might 6.2 Generator Mods

This is a might-focused build. Feel free to convert it to a precision-focused build since you're testing HL, e.g. Precision 6.2 Generator Mods, Relentless Precision, Prevision VII, Precision & Health VII, and Precision & Power VII.

I recommend making a new PC Test toon for this test. To get the SP needed, buy the rare and iconic styles from the new vendors. As opposed to a Tunso Test, right now I call these a Live Test. It's maybe not 200+ SP as many top tier live toons but it's a closer test point. I like to compare the ratio/scale of damage between a Tunso Test and a Live Test for multiple rotations, ranges, and powersets. I've got a pretty gnarly spreadsheet building up with reports from multiple players.

Otherwise, you're executing the test exactly as intended. After doing a Tunso Test and Live Test for Melee and Range, you've met the spirit of everything. The only other gap worth looking at would be a Tunso Test and Live Test for your best Midrange rotation. That usually means using melee AM abilities that do their best damage at 12.5m, avoiding melee AM abilities that require being at 7m, and using ranged weapon combos. Some powersets don't have any difference between melee and midrange. Others do significantly.