GU50, Tunso Testing, and Player Testing

You can test those all you want, the problem is with the am and sparring targets, the results get skewed big time. Because the sparring targets always keep your pets fully powerded.
I think the devs having sparring targets were they give a certain amount of powerback, or none at all to compare earth and sorcery would do good for a comparison.

False.
pets get no power from targets

Is anyone conducting rage tests? I know radium was on it for a little.

I see that you need results for Earth live tests. I think Black Jaq did one already. I never got back with you with that my bad. You also need mid range for TT and LT. I'll see what I can do.

I do think it's pretty admirable the work folks have put in to test these things, but for what it's worth, I feel like it's a missprioritization. I think first and foremost there needs to be a real conversation about "melee range" damage and how some powers can get it from 12.5 meters out, effectively safely meleeing all content in the game, while others only see optimal "melee range" damage at half that or closer.

Again, not to derail, but to use an analogy, this feels like fussing over a tenths of a millimeter in spark plug gappage on a car with two flat tires. Yeah, of course the gappage will be a significant factor down the road, but you're not even prepared to get there in this vehicle. The numbers parsed, even if tweaked to balance (and there's a multitude of issues there with the testing setup), will show a superficial balance at that, because it still does not account for the bigger picture issues of range to target and loadout accessibility.

Why the range issue was not immediately addressed post GU50 is beyond me, because the tools are there, buffing galling eruption and giving dreadful a range buff ala time bomb would help shore up its mid-range problems. Tweaking the third, mid-range tick on ram and impact could have helped light. Instead, we're back at square one with rebalancing powers that we threw out a widely-enjoyed, fast, fun combat system 15 months ago in order to balance.

Again, not to dump on people's work, but I think you're spinning your wheels until Tunso comes around on what melee range means for everyone. It's nice to be diplomatic and meet people halfway, but sometimes one side is just wrong. As the father of a two-year old I can assert, sometimes meeting the absurd halfway, even if it's the more-pleasant short-term option, is usually a mistake.

On a final note, I echo Crappy's critique of the 10-second parse issue, and I think just rolling over and accepting this is a mistake. Again, I understand the goal to placate, but really it's a weird choice when a lot of powers revolve around 12-second buff cycles. I get that a 30-second split doesn't fully account for this either, but at least a 30-second parse is going to usually capture two and a half rotations and be a little less prone to crit variability.

My thoughts anyway. Best of luck. Iron Banner tomorrow!

The range WM results for Gadgets seem to be out of line. Was Sticky Bomb used for those? If yes, then that result isn't accurate as Sticky Bomb remains broken. It's splitting after 3 instead of 2. For the same reason it shouldn't be used for AM testing either.

Mighty, I'm going to respond to you here, because you've always been rational in your postings.

Know that the midrange issue is also part of this conversation. We're all trying to get on the same page first, and that means standardizing testing. Would it have been nice for Tunso to have told us how he and the Devs test a year ago? Absolutely. Doesn't matter, though, because here we are. We have a chance to get some positive changes accomplished here.

As to the parse length, it's truly an insignificant issue. We're going with 10 sec, because that's what the Devs use. Is there more variability from parse to parse than if 30 sec intervals were used? Yes. Will the two methods average out the same? Also, yes. You can see for yourself. Run 10 parses at 30 sec. Then, run 30 parses at 10 sec. Average the DPS values. They will be within margin of error. The 30 sec parses look cleaner because you're basically doing some of the averaging via the parse length. If your rotation is 12 seconds, you capture 2.5 rotations in that 30 sec parse. The peaks and troughs of those half rotations are smoothed out by the full rotations. That's it. Nothing magical.

The reason Tunso cited for using 10 sec parses, and it actually makes sense, is when you screw up a rotation, you can stop and pitch a 10 sec parse, rather than an entire 30 sec parse. We've all been running damage tests where we flub up the tail end and have to start over. Ugh. You can also clip out the ramp up by removing the initial parse.

I, for one, am excited about this dialogue. Let's keep it going in a positive and productive manner. Who knows, the results might just lure you back to the game.

I did the live test at me lee for electricity 30 10 second parses with no mistakes.

Stats
Might: 10149
Precision: 4595
All Profiencies, escalating might, core strength, max damage

Melee: flip splash
Range: 25697-32410
Mean: 29002
Median: 28995

<12.5 m scissor kick
Range: 19252-25290
Mean: 21872
Median: 21520

Here are my testing results. It is not the results they used but you can apply them to the numbers they did use and compare.

Thanks again for the reply. While I also do not agree with all the testing criteria, I do think this has gotten both the players and the devs to open their eyes to some of the issues of these powersets. Hopefully, this dialog will continue and progress will be made.

Reducing the distance to 7.5m creates unnessecary risk for almost all powers that benefit from 12.5m range. Here's why. They are vulnerable to interrupts and lunges which is a very risky vulnerability for 7.5m. Also almost all powersets can't take a punch with being so close. Rage being the only exception since it can heal all damage taken within melee range or any range for that matter.
I think the correct way to fix it is allow all powersets to deal greater damage within 12.5m range without being in melee - point blank.
Since I can speak in behalf of rage, it needs a midrage option. Since no word has been given wether we are getting one or not. We should, at least changing how frenzy works. Making it so that it benefits from being in 12.5m range, remove the forward move on last slash, adjusting the damage so that all slashes deal somewhat even damage, allow player movement whilst using it - makes sense since rage is a quick and nimble powerset.
A for celestial, maybe altering smite/haunt to deal increase damage in 12.5m range.

Thanks a ton. I assume you meant >12.5 and not <12.5. I can pull those into the results.

Just to be clear, for the Live Test you executed that from the PC Test and your spec was equivalent to below?

10423 Might
3380 Precision
Core Strength, Escalating Might, Max Damage
3 Damage League Proficiencies
160 SP getting All T1 Crit Innates, T2 Might Innates, and any available for WM Damage Innates

Extra SP can go to weapons combos if they don't affect stats for testing convenience

Might VII, Might/Health VII, and Might/Power VII
4 Might 6.2 Generator Mods

or

Might: 8930
Precision: 4766

Core Strength, Relentless Precision, Max Damage
3 Damage League Proficiencies
160 SP getting All T1 Crit Innates, T2 Might Innates, and any available for WM Damage Innates

Extra SP can go to weapons combos if they don't affect stats for testing convenience

Precision VII, Precision/Health VII, and Precision/Power VII
4 Precision 6.2 Generator Mods

I expect some variation depending on what people go for with their SP. I thought your stats looked a little high. If possible, please try to include the parser line items as well. The summary information is what we're after for sure but the line items just help in case someone else wants to proof your work or if they can eyeball anything that looks erratic, e.g. hitting 9 targets.

The thing is, not all powers benefit from 12.5m range consistently. The powers this would hurt, and are the powers that already have an advantage. Ice can do its entire AM at 12.5m. That means 100% of its melee damage is available at mid-range. To even get close to those numbers for Nature, you have to be using Dog Form or Brawling (and both require being <7m). If 7m was a requirement for all powersets, it would be consistent for everyone. And if any particular fight is too risky, then everyone would have to switch to their range loadout. It kinda evens the playing field. The downside is that owning an armory would be pretty much necessary. You'd also have to address powersets that can be 7m for just one attack (Nature) versus those that would need to be 7m for the entire time. DoT powers will certainly try to reinvent midrange even if you took it away.

So I'm not sure there's a silver bullet but it's a great discussion needing to be had.

I asked but Penryn was unclear.



In the chart for range damage LIVE tests, where gadgets WM + AM tops at 25k, was Sticky Bomb used in that sample? Did the rotation start as WM into SB?

Yes, SB was used, and Penryn added the disclaimer that SB is currently not splitting properly.

Here is my idea on a true test

Sparring Target CR: Zero
Player CR: Zero
Gear: A single hand item with zero stats - item provides socket for max damage mod


Now this test would show baseline damage against a zero CR enemy.

A similar test would have to be done to compare to the highest possible CR

Now this type of test would be perfect if three ranges existed but it we have two and until the whole issue with range is resolved balancing matters little.

My idea on melee abilities that can be at 12.5M range. Since the ability is MELEE if the boss or enemy is blocking, you are interrupted and your AM is canceled, you have to start over. Now here is the thing, the developers would have to look at all abilities and note what abilities are melee. This change would be FAIR since melee weapon attacks result in a knockback if you attack someone blocking, the same should be applied to all melee based abilities. That would make the game more balance as all power than would have to consider when to use said ability. No more spamming Artic Gust.

I did not run any live number test on earth or electric. I have been messing with key rebinds in order to get consistent scissor kick execution. I think it's because my mouse is wireless.

I know we need Electricity Range Test. We should identify the remaining tests needed just so we can say we tested everything.

It might be a good idea for Sore to note Penryn's disclaimer in his post with the chart. One, so folks can see why it does so well. Two, so Tunso can finally fix it. It's been around for months.

Fair enough. Tunso is aware, but not sure of a timeline on a fix.

There is no such thing as CR zero. If you have equal CR of the player and NPC, there is no damage scaling anyway. The actual CR-based scaling has already been worked out by shiny mackerel. What you're describing would simply be a test of stat scaling, and that's pre-determined by the scaling of might and precision.