GU50 And No Changes For Nature,Light and Elec

Do you even listen to yourself?

Players have been testing powers for as long as the game has existed and all of a sudden their testing is completely redundant because you have this magical testing parameter now. If such is the case, why was this not disclosed when the update was made available on test?

Do you think our time is worthless especially when we are the ones paying you and not the other way round?

Did you fix Earth, Sorcery, Rage, etc. in a hotfix? Are these powers considered in line with the rest of the powers specifically the FOTM?

Had the developers listened to the testing feedback in a timely manner, there would not be a need to make balance a life-long process. We play this game and you don't. Your opinion/testing is limited and subjective.

The main point of any test server is to identify bugs that will screw up a live release. In the case of powers this is to do with power doing waaaay less or more than they should in an obviously unintended way. In the case of content this can be anything from dialogs not working or textures being misapplied through to game breaking *and then we couldn't finish the instance* type things. You're basically supposed to be looking for new and interesting ways to break things that the developers have overlooked.

This stuff is entirely different from the feedback on the powers which has largely been that stuff is working exactly as intended (by the patch notes) but that the player base wants it to work differently. Choosing to make stuff work differently is a very different thing to do than identifying and fixing a non-intended bug and the decisions on that will largely not be with the same devs that are scouring the bug reports and fixing the bits that don't work.

Under performing is not the same as broken.

Having said that, this:

Very much agree.
The whole thing has been handled exceptionally badly. They could have put out a statement saying that (for example) they had looked at all the feedback and whilst it might not be optimal they were comfortable enough with the release to allow it to go live while stressing the fact that they would be continuing to monitor the numbers with an option to increase damage later if it was necessary. They could have stressed how valuable the player contributions were. They could have not posted that "how to test" guide until the next round of testing began - and at that point they could have posted it as a way forward, whereas posting it now makes it look like they were actively saying "all that testing you were doing? well you were doing it wrong so we're not taking any notice of it." In a medium of text choosing your words carefully is very important.


Still then I hit phrases like this:

Literally.
...

This would be great and in fact very wonderful if you hot fixed powers within 30 days ! The issue is it take half a year by then people are over it and some give up and try other games . I truly get the part about not wanting a power to be op but if hot-fixes could come. I switch my earth toon last night to ice ! And wow oh wow ! Feedback shows ice , fire and gadgets are all ahead of the rest . And wondering it will be hard to bring all the powers up to ice , fire and gadgets ..it's just too many I can only see hotfix and bring them down to be even . Just wanted to give constructive feedback

I just wanted to say all the fixes but it all going in circles because now earth and Sorcery on bottom again !

Well I'm done complaining and I'm not threatening to quit I just switch powers I should have to but if you don't wanna be called a bumb dps lol or get in sm and elite raids .you need to keep switching to a good power

I was waiting to see if a green name was going to respond to any of these complaints and after reading this I wish you would have just stayed silent. I can not believe you are here justifying putting this on live under performing. I am not sure what your definition of a small amount is but I do not think it is the same as mine.

It is so frustrating as a player to constantly give feedback that the powersets are under performing by a very large amount to then be told that at worst they are under performing by a small amount with no data to back it up just your word. I know your the community manager and are reporting what someone else tells you to say, but maybe you can direct them to the frustration being displayed on the forums about how poorly this update has been handled. Testers were put off because of "vacation" and most people were fine with that, but when you do get back you basically say oh well we don't care what the testers have say go ahead with it anyway.

We all know you are going to throw the new episode on test server after the sneak peek today. It will probably silence a lot of these threads but I am truly disappointed with the way this update was handled and how you guys wanted us to bear with you during your vacation time and then do not show us the same courtesy.

So standing at 12.5 meters and spamming Arctic Gust vs. a lunging, point-blank HL melee combo is an Apples-to-Apples comparison then?

Tunso's implied it. I'd just like to hear one of you guys explicitly say it out loud, and then listen to yourselves.

Just not too loudly, they might shatter the glass house we've all been living in (voluntarily or involuntarily).

NO!!!!

My question is we all talked about Ice being OP when it launched and how quickly the FotM chasers moved to Ice. We showed charts showing an increase in Ice population. Players showed how OP ice is, yet there is no true hot fix. Ice is still OP. Explain that Mepps.

We saw the same with Quantum, which lasted 3 months and Gadgets last year.

There always seems to be one power that stays OP for 3-4 months. I guess it is Ice right now...

I do have to say it is nice to know my damage as HL is closer to what Quantum, still less but closer thank for doing that but, and it is a BIG BUT.... Quantum is now one of the weaker powers....

Aww...that hurt...JK...

If you do jump ship and come to the Elder side...(LOL) let me know here...

We compared numerous power to the powers on test giving you guys plenty of good data that the powers were under preforming. We, well atleast myself and a few others I know tested things correctly with the right balance of mods in our gear so we had the correct stats to get the best posible dps from the powers. The way you guys test you get wrong results cause you don't even use mods in your gear...how could you truly know what a power can do if your not modded correctly. So imo you guys need to change your testing methods. Maybe that's why fire,ice and gadgets are all "OP" cause you guys gathered your data with no mods.

I'm under the assumption that things are on test so we can make sure they go live working correctly and in situations like these the powers are comparable. Why rush out the GU if things aren't working properly? You guys could have easily tossed out another buff to the powers and we would have given you back results probably within the hour and then things could have been worked on from there. But now the live server just turned into the test server like usual lol

And common with the communication thing, you guys ask us for data and other things and we get on it that day but you guys can't even write us a simple reply what's with that man.

Ok....So what is the baseline that you all have for the powers? Where are you trying to get these powers to hit? What is too much or too little dps wise? If you want accurate testing done in a specific manner that is fine and great even but you should let the testers know what baseline you are going after. If you do not it is pointless.

What needs to be done is for the devs to say test this way with this gear and these mods (which you just did) and this is the baseline we are going for. It should be the same for all powers.

Once the testers have that info then they can go and test ALL the powers to those standards to see where they are. This is something the devs should have already done also of course.

Once the tests are done and the baselines are known for the powers then and only then can you try to go after balance. Buffing and needing powers as you release new gear is pointless and meaningless if there is never a given baseline to go off of.

This seems pretty much like common sense from where I am at. So what is the baseline number that the testers should be going after or better yet that number that the devs are shooting for?

First off, I hope if you read through my post you'll finish it before getting mad.
Second, I was not a tester but I did read through the tester's notes almost daily when it was going strong and I think I stopped following regularly after the 8th page or 9th page.

I was actually quite surprised the update was going live. I stopped following after page 9 because around page 5 or 6, a developer had come on and posted that they wanted to concentrate more on towards glitches or broken powers. I.e. power cast but damage not occurring or ticks are shorter or cut off; the statement leaned more towards that direction than any interest on whether it was low damage or not.

Reading through the thread ANYONE can see the hard work, dedication and determination of each tester as they presented evidence, screen shots and meticulous observation to the thread.

I APPLAUD EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU FOR CARING SO MUCH AND TAKING THE TIME TO DO SO.

I can understand why you guys feel like your efforts were wasted and underutilized. I think it is because of your hard work invested and the "Seeming lack of action on your results" that you are extremely frustrated.

Here's the part of my post many of you may not like: For those that are angry and venting, you need to CALM DOWN a little. I think your frustration may be adding to your anger and blinding you to what DCUO has responded so far.

Here's is what i believe is going on based on Mepps' comments which someone posted on page 1( thank you for that BTW) and on page 12.

From DCUO DEVs experience and from ours as well, sometimes testers are able to catch UNINTENDED damage during LIVE but not always... Once it goes LIVE, as meticulous as testing that was done, there are now thousands of users for that power and it has never failed that someone, somehow is able to find a flaw in the damage role that creates and overblown damage number.

This glitch will exist, people will buy respec, it will be exposed and the eventual "NERF" outcry comes out and the "I will end my sub if they Nerf it." mobs comes out.

We ALL know it happens to every power that comes out of the new update.

So from this experience the DEVS say that news from the tester saying that a power is under performing actually fits within their target numbers. I think they have a set of damage numbers written for each power and their mechanics and the numbers are below this, which is what they targeted for during testing.

THIS MEANS that all those numbers you guys worked for and tested and posted were all seen examined and were considered as helpful to the DEV team. DO NOT MISTAKE TO THINK THAT YOUR EFFORTS WERE THROWN OUT AND WASTED.

Is this the end for Nature/elec/HL update? I don't believe so. Now that it's live the devs will now wait and see if someone, somehow is able to manipulate the powers to actually produce damage numbers that are close to their TRUE target numbers. I believe, and hope, that as time passes and no glitch is shown they will then put a hotfix in to adjust and increase the damage numbers to fit their ideal numbers.

Why are they doing it this way? As an analogy, think of a band-aid. It is easier and less painful when your putting on a band-aid than when you are ripping it off. It is a more pleasant experience to find out that your damage numbers have increased than finding out that you "JUST GOT NERFED".

Finally, the method of testing. Yup, they screwed up not putting up a method of testing that tester could follow and produce a more useful, accurate and easier presentation of what they needed. No going around it.

They messed up and Mepps owned to it.

I think they now have posted a guideline that will be more beneficial to DEVS and testers both.

Finally again, I can't believe I typed this long and someone may actually have read this to the end. Which leads back to my admiration to the testers who took the time and effort on their own without getting any acknowledgement and reward for their efforts.

THANKS.

I'd hate to say it but even seeing Sore in on the displeased side doesn't bode to well for me personally.
He's pretty much the unofficial ambassador of nature.

It's not so much the fact that there were no changes, it's the lack of communication and the way in which things were done that left people frustrated here.

game testers often get paid for their time, they were doing this because they were passionate.

Instead of admitting to being overwhelmed and facing looming deadlines, I see a pretty huge and pretty obvious shift of burden.
The unmentioned boundaries are more insulting then anything.

The proper way to say that would have been mentioning
'hey the numbers look great so far guys be they're all over and I've sorta made this new framework guideline, and i was hoping to see how those numbers fared in this predetermined set of blah to see the damage done on intended methods. '

Instead of admitting to being overwhelmed and facing looming deadlines, I see a pretty huge and pretty obvious shift of burden.


Ding ding ding!!!

Not sure about Nature, but Electricity is an easy fix. Instead of DOT leveling up to level 3, just make all damage start at level 3. It takes too long and everything is dead before you can actually level your DOTs. And on bosses, half the bosses have a reflect these days so you have to start and restart your DOT progression. If you got rid of DOT leveling and made all damage steady at level 3 then it would bring the damage out more in line with other powers immediately.

While this certainly sounds like they are saying, "Thanks for nothing. We're going live anyway." I'm not quite so sure.

I'd like to play Devil's Advocate and say that it was more of a "Sorry, we shouldn't have gotten your hopes up. We knew we needed a larger test group, this is why we opened up the testing to everyone, but we still didn't get the numbers to satisfy metric goals. In order to get some real numbers so we are forced to go live. Had we seen enough numbers in testing, we may have been able to do more. As it stands now, the numbers just don't meet expectations and while your feedback has focused us, we need to make sure that it works in real numbers. We are as disappointed as you are and woun't be making this same mistake again. When we need big enough numbers we will be more specific in our needs and what we will do with the results from the testing server."

Actually, I'm hoping they learned that last part. We all know that what perception and reality never jive. Regardless of the "Perception is reality" axiom, the numbers ultimately tell the truth. Some mathematician player WILL figure out that truth and exploit it. While many of you will be justified by the work you have done, the numbers just aren't sufficient enough to remove the doubt factor. It's unfortunate that in the past, when the industry HAS reacted quickly, it's backfired because they trusted what looked like real testing done properly, then come to find out that it's all wrong and the numbers don't play out (or worse, it was deliberately malicious test falsification. Not saying it's happened here, but probably somewhere).

So cut them SOME level of slack on it. It's not like things woun't change, it's just not going to happen when YOU want it to. When it does, it may not be what you want, but it WILL be based on statistics and not conjecture. I hate to say it, but a vocal community movement isn't always the right answer. Many companies have learned this unfortunate truth. Some to the detriment of the game, some to the total loss of the company.

Remember, they are still people. Admittedly, people who should have some thick skin, but still people.

Soooooo, all this was done to fix a few bugs for the tested powers?
I have no words for this, nor for this awesome gif I just found.

It was supposed to be easy, but apparently not. That was a suggestion posed many, many times in the testing thread.

Hey,. pretty crazy IDEA: tone up the dots powers in 30%, just for LOLS, in the update...

Then, maybe, the future hotfixes would not be necessary...

Result: what a brillant idea, we never sold so much re-spec tokens to Sorcery, Electric, Celestial, Nature...