Work In Progress GU103: Tank Balance

Discussion in 'Concluded' started by Batuba, Mar 6, 2020.

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  1. ObsidianChill Community "Trusted"

    And balance issues aren't being addressed here Proxy maintank Star? If anything Rage should have been nerfed more but it's not worth the hassle because of the large majority of tanks being rage but as your fellow League Leader pointed out the nerf to rage is compensated by the new artifact coming out so they won't notice any decrease. Ice doesn't need any changes unless the devs planned to address core game mechanics like counter immunity. Earth has bugs with Brick but at its foundation if those were corrected Earth is fine. Atomic suffered the most from 1) lowest BSM shield 2) weakness to crowd control which leads to aura dropping. The BSM wasn't addressed which I already have commented on my displeasure with that. The control resistance was buffed BEYOND a breakout trinket which is 30% to 35% and the aura duration increased so it will be much easier for atomic tanks to maintain the aura and its healing and mitigation. Fire has a whole bunch of issues stemming from stats revamp but I can't speak to how well these new changes will play out because we can't test them yet. Would I have changed different things or added more to Fire? absolutely but Fire effectiveness is TBD at the moment.
    • Like x 2
  2. gemii Dedicated Player

    Why not do the nerfs and buffs to whatever tanks and then grant a special face tank ability for all tanks.

    For example let’s say you need a hit counter of 30 to face tank. Once you reach that 30 hit counter your hit counter then automatically stops turns red and transforms into a 30 second timer countdown and for that 30 seconds your allowed to face tank. Once it reaches zero you’d have to readjust and tank the way you’d normally be tanking until you reach the 30 hit counter again

    (I’m just throwing 30 as a random number)

    Or make this idea an artifact later lol
  3. Jurandyr Ross Well-Known Player

    That is if the rage user decides to level the new artifact coming out. I myself am not gonna bother with it, I already have 6 other artifacts to level up on a single character. Such nerf to a powerset should not be done because of one artifact, if anything, the artifact should have been created with its mechanics/stats/gimmick taking into consideration the existing powersets. Artifacts should be optional.

    The way you word this is like if you cope with Daybreak/Dimensional Ink nerfing something, only to bring it back to its previous state through a pay to win method. Unacceptable.
    • Like x 5
  4. Royal Knight Kiryu Well-Known Player

    Rage has so many problems with it that rather than having to Devs address them they’re just gonna ignore them and make them worse. The health stacking is based off of dominance so that’s two sets of separate stats there then you have to worry about the heels with your restoration best. Why not have everything in dominance? Rage has so many problems with it that rather than having to Deb’s address them they’re just gonna ignore them and make them worse. The health stacking is based off of dominance so that’s two sets of separate stats there then you have to worry about the heels which are restoration-based. Why not have everything in dominance? We already have that for atomic I don’t see why it’s so hard for them to course correct these simple deficiencies.
  5. Proxystar #Perception

    To draw this back to the key point; people would like to kite less. The point is and there are differences in the tank powers that can make them better or worse for face tanking, even you've acknowledged that by listing deficiences, with that being the case people are trying to give feedback that they'd like to face tank more often and not be pushed towards kiting more often because of the power they chose to select and enjoy - the answer to that isn't telling them to just go earth, it's giving fire the ability to better face tank for example.
    • Like x 3
  6. Iconic Simulation Loyal Player

    What? No, Rage doesnt need to be nerfed. If anything, all the other tanks got to be brought to its level. Also, suggesting that a nerf is acceptable because a tank artifact is coming out to later to give back the taken stats, is pretty piss poor reasoning at best. This community needs incentive to play as tanks again, not the opposite. Poor reasoning like this is how the devs are encouraged to make bad decisions.
    • Like x 7
  7. Templeton Active Player

    Why do you people keep on pushing on turning all tank powers look exactly the same in every possible way and also face tank? Can't just people talk out once they know everything about their power? Depending on the raid some tanks have an easier time others hard time. They are all designed to be different and excel at different tasks and raids. Generally, you are easily detecting the pros of a tank powerset, your duty is to see where it's weak and find ways to cope with that, from basic and free things like kiting and positioning in a boss fight, to the choice of artifacts that you truly think they will help with your powerset's weak point. Instead, people come here to not only keep Rage the way it is, but also make all tank powers similar to it and encourage the excessive use of face tanking. Should you truly wish to fix your powerset, take a second and even third look at what your power offers you, then if you really consider your powerset needs a buff, keep it real, take a look at what the developers would increase. Imagine what would you really benefit from if it was changed about your powerset, but by a small amount. I'm telling you all, I myself was legitimately frustrated back in CoTe about how tanking became (I was mainly a healer), I thought it should be called bait not tank, but learned to cope with it and got used to it. If more people would do that, many of the suggestions here would be more realistic.
  8. gemii Dedicated Player

    that wouldnt stop tank powers from not looking the same. they just would all would be able to face tank for a limited amount of time without feeling the need to kite since players seem to want to stand their ground and feel like actual tanks vs running from the enemy
    • Like x 1
  9. ObsidianChill Community "Trusted"

    Never said players had to level the new artifact, if you want to think that these changes to Rage all of a sudden make rage unplayable then that's not even close to being accurate. Rage needed a nerf 100% any arguing against is completely baseless. Batuba adjusting what he did for rage is perfectly reasonable. Rage tanks weren't even worrying about their scar tissue mechanic and could keep their hit counters low because their actual severe mechanic compensated almost entirely to the point that rage tanks would max out Health before DOM and will continue to do so after this update, because that is still the better spec.
    • Like x 2
  10. ObsidianChill Community "Trusted"

    Players want to kite less but offer absolutely nothing of merit to further that point and don't actually understand why tanks kite now which i've explained. "Just buff defense bro" is not valuable feedback "just buff brick's health bro" is not valuable feedback. Until I actually see any tanks attempt credible feedback to counter points of the requirements to kite then I will continue to ridicule each subsequent attempt.

    Bottom line is tanks don't have to kite as much as they are but they do so because
    1) It's Easier
    1.5) No desire to get better?
    Just as much as tanks want to kite you can just as easily range tank in almost every scenario and range tanking and kiting is not the same thing. If some tank wants to roll around in man-bat form just to survive, that isn't the type of constructive feedback we need here.
    • Like x 1
  11. ObsidianChill Community "Trusted"

    Ah yes the classic 1 powerset is too good so lets buff ALL THE OTHER POWERSETS to be at the same level argument. Nature might is too good, lets not fix what is broken there just buff the other 14 powersets so it's just as good. Rage is the easiest and most forgiving tank which is why you see the vast majority of tanks being rage but lets not adjust rage lets buff all the other 4 tank powersets so they are just as good as rage :rolleyes: Just buffing tanks so that they are SUPER DUPER great at everything and can just sit AFK while the boss and adds attack them because they won't die from their super duper health and defense isn't the right way to get players to play tanks again either, but that seems to be what people want here.

    Like I explained before player doesn't have to level that artifact, if they personally felt that much weakened because of the adjustment to Rage that artifact would compensate with what rage lost, which was the point I was making.
    • Like x 2
  12. DeitySupreme Devoted Player

    It’s very rare for me to agree with chills. But here one thing I have to say. The issue with face tanking is a community problem. Someone in the thread mentioned that they would be ok with there being 2 tanks in a raid if it meant that you could face tank again. The issue is that if they buffed tanks to be able to do this than the community would force one of the tanks to solo tank and kite in order to bring in another dps.

    Now, you could buff all tanks to be able to face tank without the need of another tank but in order to compensate, the devs would be forced to create more mechanics that one shot and less tactical mechanics. This is the current state of the game. The measuring stick should not be the ability of a tank to face tank bosses. Instead the measuring stick should be the ability to face tank a group of adds and be tactical in bosses. The way the community is today is to get as few support roles as possible in order to get as many dps into the raid as possible. First this mentality forced trolls to be batteries and eliminated 2 troll runs for 1 troll runs. Then tanks were hit forcing them to solo tank in order to make room for another dps again. And finally we did the same to healers.

    Pretty soon (already happening) we will (already do) have solo support roles in elite content. And in the future, will we have troll-less raid runs in elite? Raid runs without support roles?

    Think back to raids like FoS2, we needed to have double roles for a few of those part including hallways in order to finish the raid. And no, you couldn’t just face tank everything there either when you were of level.
    • Like x 3
  13. ObsidianChill Community "Trusted"

    Exactly, and when you find myself agreeing with Deity or the Might Master you know we aren't just trolling you. Kiting has so many outside factors besides tank balance. Different raid encounters will lend themselves to face tanking or the need to range tank or kite. It will depend on what the NPC special abilities are and their weapon attack combos. If they have some 5 tap MA or Brawl haymaker combo etc of course you don't want that to land on you as a tank but that doesn't mean you have to keep rolling or running away so you don't get hit, you just simply roll before the attack lands. Take this recent SM as an example with Ultimate Solider. You couldn't face tank because of his special ability, you could kite and keep rolling and run away to be safe or you simply wait for his combos and lunge then walk back out of range so he continues to proc his ranged combo. You can survive both ways but one is absolutely unnecessary kiting which is what the community thinks every elite raid requires because tanks are so weak? it comes down to the fact that yes some tanks will be better in certain raid scenarios but that's the point of having 5 different powersets and not each one being a copy of the other. Also before you ask for a buff, ask yourself have you as a tank given both methods enough of an effort or do you just resort to kiting anytime something gets rough?

    People also want to leave out the fact that alot of what they're saying is actually questions about 2 core game mechanics and it's stats revamp changes
    -Immunity changes
    -NPC Breakout Profiles & Zero Willpower
    which aren't "tank balance" thread topics those are DCUO core mechanic discussions that would impact the entire game not just 5 tank powersets.
    • Like x 2
  14. Proxystar #Perception

    The players are expressing a general desire, there's numerous ones in here that are saying it, you'll note that I said I didn't actually agree with it entirely (unless of course you're not actually reading my posts) but was sympathetic of both view points. That still counts as feedback and isn't subject to ridicule, because none of us are developers, they're simply saying this is the end result we want, the developers can choose how we get there or if in fact as you say we even need to get there period.

    I do think at 'times' kiting becomes a bit to prevalent (and for the record my main is a tank by the way) and it could be toned back a bit and yes I do agree that some players over do it or simply do it because it's easier but not necessary, but I also do think there's needs to be a slightly better balance found between the power sets in terms of their capabilities and that isn't cause I want "cookie cutter" tank powers that just differ in color.

    We shouldn't be making content exponentially more difficult for one power set simply because it's "their turn to take a disadvantage" that just discourages players from choosing powers in the first place and makes FOTM powers like where rage is sitting right now.

    I'm not saying it'll ever be perfect either but it could be a bit closer than it is and I'm sure some of these changes might achieve that and we'll see when we actually get a chance to see them actually working.

    You'll note there's actually no where in this thread where I've said simply, "give us super duper defense and health so I can go AFK and Alt Tab"; while god tanking in a corner, no of course that's not the answer. ;)
    • Like x 4
  15. DeitySupreme Devoted Player

    One more thing I’d like to add to my previous comment. Because the community forced solo support roles and 5 dps, we were introduced to a new type of mechanic that is starting to become more common. That’s the damage check mechanic. If you can’t deal x amount of damage but y time than the group will wipe. I’m ok if they make make raids harder to bring back double tanks if it means we get less one shot mechanics and more mechanics like that of fos2 or raids back in the day. Yes there have always been one shot mechanics but that was never the go to mechanic. Now it is.
    • Like x 1
  16. Ully Committed Player

    I wasn't going to chime in but most of the feedback seems rather strange to me. There's a lot of outrages claims in this thread and I think some you guys need to settle down with the suggestions because I don't think you realise how foolish some of it sounds.

    Firstly I want to say that Fire, Ice, atomic, rage and earth can face tank pretty much all of the bosses in the current DLC. Anyone who says otherwise is probably a lower skilled Tank or they play with medicore/bad healers. Higher skilled Tanks are routinely soloing this content except maybe for DM-E. The same applies for previous DLC's.

    The fact that so many pug Tanks of different power sets are having issues tanking content that didn't have a balance pass (metal 2 had no buff pass), tells me the problem lies with the skill base, which is quite low if we're keeping it 100. Do some of the Tank powers need adjustments, of course they do, but lets cut out the silliness and be honest here, a lot of people are complaining about the nerf to rage because it's by far the easiest Tank power to use and arguably the strongest, thereby making it a favourite among many players.

    This Kite vs Face tanking thing is getting a little bit ridiculous too. Judging by this thread and others I've read, it seems like we have a multitude of skilled tanks that used to face tanked when it was common but I can't seem to find them in-game and when I do find them in-game, they suck. They don't know how to counter, they give immunity, they don't interrupt bosses, they take free damage by not pvping with NPC's and their tanking IQ seems generally low. The fact of the matter is, if the devs end up changing the meta and make it so that counters matter again(adjustments will need to be made), the MAJORITY of you will be back here complaining about that too.

    Some players will always look for something or someone to blame for their short comings.
    • Like x 3
  17. Vindex Active Player

    Can Earth and Atomic face-tank adds + boss(es)? Like solo tanking Monsters of Metal Elite last boss fight?
  18. gemii Dedicated Player

    Range tanking is not kiting? thats a stretch but anyway

    The healer or healers if theirs two in the group come down to it as well.

    poor healers = more kiting
    good healers = more stationary allowance

    i know a fire tank who often solos the whole pce raid and this person does not kite .straight face tanking (As fire) . but because the healers in their league are very good healers the person can get away with it. Not to take away from the persons skill but that does play a large part.

    some content just simply demands kiting period. MOME last boss for example your not going to stand their "range tanking" + worrying about getting ate by robins + deal with the bosses + worry about the rest of the adds. you'll definitely be full blown kiting as a solo tank.
  19. Proxystar #Perception

    Broach of Enhanced Immunity™ - $250USD (artifact cost) if you want to face tank, realistically there's a marketing opportunity here that shouldn't be missed ;)
    • Like x 2
  20. ObsidianChill Community "Trusted"

    Why is MoMe being used for an example of kiting or tank skill? MoMe last boss you don't even have to physically kill anything, we did it in 4 minutes just by straight walking the alloys in. Even taking MoMe into consideration it fits in the outlier category for a solo tank encounter. Batman who laughs will continually do his DP shot so any players inbetween will take damage which with 1 tank would require constant re-positioning by either the tank or the rest of the group, you have to lunge dark robin stuns because the tank can't do it alone. The group can also control how many dark robins spawn by closing the portals first if they had to. MoMe is a terrible example for you to use here because the fight is "don't die while you run alloys" you don't have to kill anything, you don't have to close portals, you could run 5 tanks 2 heals and a troll for that fight and still beat it?
    • Like x 1
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