Test Discussion GU 103: Tank Balance

Discussion in 'Testing Feedback' started by Batuba, Mar 20, 2020.

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  1. AV Loyal Player


    It did work in SM to a point, it's just SM isn't anything like normal content and every tank power reached a point where it had to go full kite, ie. even the other tank powers still had to adapt the same tactics at the same tiers, it's just they had the mitigation in the final rounds that they couldn't be killed in cheesy ways without making an error or due to the server. The problem on Fire was that, because our healing output and healing received is so strong, our mitigation is lower to compensate... which is fine for normal content but it was basically impossible for the devs, since the bosses all did spike damage not steady DPS, to make a boss hit hard enough it'd challenge, for example, Ice's mitigation w/o eventually crossing a threshold where it could just outright 1-shot Fire through all the mitigation it could have active (which is exactly what happened at round 29).

    I Fire tanked til 29 in the last SM before having to switch powers to finish the final 2 rounds. Did heavy Empowered Channeling for a good chunk of it, then on & off til at least 25 and I think I used it a bit for Fire Soul gen a here and there after (but with HV cuz we needed to be able to twitch cancel/counter/move). At 29, Fire tanking just became virtually impossible because at max Fire Soul + virtually max SP + all the shields possible from every source + max consumables + max artis and basically just being fully nutted out in every way, if I every failed to properly counter mortar it could/would 1-shot me (frequently enough that it was more RNG than anything getting through the round without it happening). I suspect round 30 would have been fine but 29 simply broke the power by exceeding its mitigation (even the adds at 29 were brutal on Fire cuz of our relatively low def).

    So to summarize it wasn't an Absorb Heat/Empowered Channeling problem it was a mitigation problem, which this DLC looks like it'll address fairly well. It's really hard to balance Fire because too much mitigation and we become basically invincible since our heals are so strong; too little mitigation and we can get killed in cheesy bs ways that other tanks can't. Delicate balance.
  2. HarryHell Well-Known Player

    iconis are supplements or alternatives, not supposed to be needed.
    When i tanked PBG in the good old days, i used downdraft (flight), HLS, and lasso. So i know all about needing to supplement your power. Ice tanks could get all out of their own power-tree and didnt have to block nearly as much.

    When you put HLS in as a NEED the power itself is lacking.
    If a dps NEED robot sidekick or being prec specced, that power is lacking.
    I used to use word of power when i trolled with mental as it had no good group power sc, cos the power was lacking.

    Iconics are not supposed to be the solution, but the alternative, if not we can just scrap different power-trees all together and just have pick whatever powers in game as you like. Ie Ice shield, atomic pull, fires backdraft, rages self heal, earths brick, sc (prob crappy LO but just to make a point).

    Iconics should never be NEEDED for balance.

    Only reason for tanks to use HLS should be that they want an alternative to be more like their favourite lantern, or like the animation more then then their alternative, or that they want to shield instead of using that powers normal tank mechanics.

    Fire didnt use to need a shield, it used to be easier staying alive with a fire tank as long as you juggled adds and healer was alive. Heck i used to be known amongst my ingame friends as the fire tank that didnt block, and i usually never went down.

    I understand that you like HLS or other iconic powers, but it SHOULD NEVER BE LISTED AS NEEDED (sorry for shouting, but found it needed).
    • Like x 4
  3. DeitySupreme Steadfast Player

    And who exactly said it was needed? People who don’t want to use the best possible loadout have regular raids to run. Elite raids are called elite and should require you to do everything possible to survive. And also, are you forgetting that iconics use to have innates too? and everyone NEEDED to use those. So did that make them broken? People now a days want every power to be a walk in the park for elite raids
  4. Al Bundy Well-Known Player

    Who said NEEDED...well you did. You stated that HLS is key for most tank loadouts. Then you proceeded to criticize anyone that stated the obvious when simply saying that NEEDING HLS in a loadout means there is a balance issue with the power. Can a prec dps do great damage I’m elite content without robot sidekick? Yes. Does a troll NEED any iconic powers to debuff and give power to the group? No. Does any healer power need Pheromone bloom to heal? No. I agree that HLS makes elite less stressful for tanks in elite content...it fills in that where each tank class has that vulnerability moment...but that is what tanks need...we shouldn’t be unkillable. I would be 100% okay if they removed the iconic powers from the game or at least not make them more powerful than the regular powers.

    Heat vision on its own is not great but they made an artifact that brought it to a great power. Robot sidekick is about to get an artifact that will make it double is damage potential. Neo-Venom and Pheromone bloom take advantage of the EOG artifact. HLS is ridiculously powerful with nothing needed other than 1 sp. Amazonian Deflection is powerful but vulnerable to block-break.

    All we want is balance...that is the point of these discussions. Please refrain from personal attacks and get that chip off your shoulder. This is a game and we are all here to do our part by discussing positives and negatives. In the end we are just providing feedback for the devs. And we should be luck to have a dev here that is listening to all feedback.
    • Like x 1
  5. DeitySupreme Steadfast Player

    No you don’t want balance. You want tank powers to be buffed so they don’t need HLS at all. That is a difference that you can’t seem to comprehend. Tanks ARE getting balanced. Fire is getting a buff, atomic is getting a slight buff, earth is getting a fix, and rage is getting a slight nerf. Just because it’s not the balance that YOU want doesn’t mean it’s not getting balance. Tanks don’t need to be buffed to that point. I currently don’t use HLS on my fire loadout on live. I do have it unlocked incase I do needed it, same as AD, lasso, pheromone bloom, and other powers. Others rely on it more and that’s ok. But to think that powers require that much of a buff is asinine. If you need that many buffs that please just stick to regular and leave elite alone. Farm the card game until you get your elite gear for the feat and don’t tank the elite version.

    As stated before I do agree that something could be tweaked slightly but no I don’t think they need as much as you want.
  6. Batuba Developer

    Lets please keep this thread on topic with the changes that are currently on test. Should you want to continue discussing HLS, please do so in a new thread.
    • Like x 2
  7. Flipeled Level 30

    The changes to Fortify Golem are great. It makes Earth-tanking with Brick much more reliable.

    What I miss about Earth-tanking is the choice between pet tanking and Aftershock tanking, and the latter is not really viable anymore ever since the revamp.
    I personally would like to see Aftershocks give damage reduction as it once did, and not boost defense. It doesn't need to be 66% absorption like it is with Brick, maybe a 50% would be a good spot.
    • Like x 1
  8. Psyfur Well-Known Player

    True. Aftershocks needs attention too in this balance. Tanking without Brick isn’t viable unless using the “poor man’s ice tank” strategy.
    • Like x 1
  9. Cyro Committed Player

    Testing done in pce with myself as a tank and a healer

    - Ice - its shields feel weak, shatter and reflect were both being stripped away far too quickly, i understand that ice is a power that will always be played with hard light shield and likely the movement mode SC shield so it has to be balanced around that but as it stands right now those shields are a paper lining, if there is no change to the shield i would recommend an increase to ice armor so when your shields do break it isnt as much of an end of the world.

    - Earth brick tank - No complains



    - Earth AS tank - Feels weak but at the same time AS tanking allows for a lot of iconic powers and enough space for sc generator and a sc means that it is likely fine as is

    - Atomic - I would like to start out that this isnt a power im used to or good with by any means. I dont know how people kite and atomic its the biggest pain i have ever encountered while tanking. It felt a little weak but thats likely due to the fact i kiting and comboing perfectly. I would like to reiterate what someone else said that density should prevent 75% damage taken in since atomic has a base 25% mitigation this would greatly increase the effectiveness of the shield.

    - RAGE! - Personally i still think its on the strong side and may need a tiny nerf( i look forward to angry rage users) but i want to look further into this

    - Fire - So the changes to fire are wonderful and they were needed to really understand what exactly fire needs, fire is the high health and high heals(which people seem to forget also includes high heals from the healer due to our buff) but right now this quite simply isnt the case.

    * Stoke flames and burning det need a buff, these are the bread and butter of fire yet with the damage we take its almost like they arent even there. A buff to the healing multiplier here would be greatly appreciated more so for burning det in my opinion. Fires health tends to bounce around quite a bit which gives healers stress, a buff to the staple heals would help fire be less bouncy



    * Wildfire needs a buff to make it usable like i said in a previous post give it a multiplier so the more adds the bigger the heals not just more individual heals like it currently is


    * This maybe a long shot but can fire have a health buff for when we are blocking? Fire was always the turtle tank then during stats there was a push for every tank to be active yet this took away part of the uniqueness of fire. With a health buff just when we are blocking this adds depth to the power by giving another playstyle and brings back fire to the way it has always been. We would get health buff when blocking and a heal boast when not blocking so people can be a turtle tank which im sure a lot of people miss, an active tank, or a hybrid tank.



    * Bring back burning det blue flame!!
    • Like x 5
  10. Mr.W Committed Player

    Hey Batuba, thanks for the fire love. I am a bit curious though, if the healing on stoke flames & burning determination cant or wont be buffed is it possible that mitigation be added to these abilities as well, & be able to (mildly) stack with immolation's mitagation in order to make the healing from them more meaningful?
  11. Mr.W Committed Player



    P.S. mild mitigation on burning determination will be very fitting for its shield like animation;)
    • Like x 1
  12. Psyfur Well-Known Player

    If you want to, you could clip burning determination with immolation so that it shares immolation’s mitigation. Their cool downs are the same. That’s what I currently do on the live server. Works great for me.
  13. Mr.W Committed Player

    Yes, I'm aware they can clip lol, but the perspective I was getting at is if burning determination and stoke flames both had their own independent mitigation that could (slightly) stack with immolation's (new change) then the heals from these two abilities would essentially become "stronger" because they would have to work less hard to maintain our health pool.
  14. Mr.W Committed Player

    P.S. these changes should strictly effect the tank role only so that the damage done in dps role remain unaffected.
  15. Psyfur Well-Known Player

    I like that idea.
  16. Cyro Committed Player

    In my previous post i forgot to bring up supercharges, now in my opinion every sc in the game needs to be looked at and if we are going to get to a point where they are all looked at and tweaked like pets and tanks are right now then ok leave it for later if not tweak the tanks supercharges right now please.

    Ice - Hibernation - It puts you in a state where you cannot do anything and heals you for your entire health bar for 50% sc. This sc as it stands is not useful unless your healer is horrible, at no point will a tank need to heal their entire bar. To make this sc more useful i suggest removing the heal and instead giving a buff to shield strength for a period of time like 15-30 seconds this would make it far more appealing to ice tanks and actually useful and worth running.

    Earth - envelop - Exact same situation as ice purposed buff give timed buff gives you damage absorption or increased defense for 15-30 seconds

    Fire - resignation - a burst heal that heals you for most of your health bar with a knock dot and a dot. This is quite frankly useless, it didnt even heal my full health bar, at least with earth and ice they get a shield it may make you unable to do anything but its something all fire gets its a burst heal and a knockdown. To make this useful the cost needs to be reduced and to reduce the cooldown so that it can be used more often. Even if the cost was reduced to 25% no one would use it, by lowering the cooldown it allows fire tanks a more useful heal for a power that quite frankly no one has ever used because a burst heal at an expensive power cost with a normal cooldown is pointless.

    Fire - eternal flame - A heal that gives you up to 12 heals per attack in my testing the healing i received was double my health which is very nice but the cooldown being 60 seconds seems excessive bringing it down or making it last longer with more hits would make this sc useful

    RAGE! - vindictive - the sc that in my opinion got the worst treatment from stats Everything about this makes it useless, the high sc cost, the cooldown, and amount it heals back this sc has nothing going for it and even back in the day it wasnt used often i only used it for gome first boss. I purpose boasting the healing back so while its active you heal 100% of damage taken in but because of the unique nature of this heal combined with that face that scap and EoG exist i also purpose increasing the sc cost so people cant abuse the sc

    I also think the movement mods shields should get an increase in sc cost, right now they are too good with too low of a power cost for any tank considering a sc to pass up
  17. p3rf3ctxxxdark Well-Known Player

    After reading all this I dont think u r entirely familiar with all these tank powers because ice does have a Sc that makes shield stronger and buffed defense with ice elemental . As for envelop this sc absorbs the most damage of any sc right now from what I saw when being tested and only because u r stationary doesnt mean its useless a SC is meant to be last resort and u sayin theres never s situation in which a tanks health bar would never drop that low to require an instant heal makes me think u dont tank/solo tank elite raids stuff happens n healers die sometimes. For fire reignition used to be a 25% sc and should be returned to that since it's only a small heal, eternal flame used to last 18 secs of pure healing was the best tank sc ever not sure how strong it is now. But before it was like having rage crash without the crash .
    Vindictive I have never used so cant comment.and movement mode shields are fine where they are they dont last long only about 6 secs if even that long
    • Like x 1
  18. Mr.W Committed Player

    Just commenting on ice hibernation, it does thankfully agro while the player is encased lol. I think the heal mechanic was put in place to allow every player to enjoy the heal play style to an extent. Now im not saying a shield buff is bad lol, but you can technically already pseudo buff your ice shield with ice elemental since it would takes your defense to around 100k.

    For me a fun little ice armor quark would be, each time your shield breaks the player is healed for 5-10% of your health or defense:)
  19. HarryHell Well-Known Player

    Basically you said (or hinted) it was needed to be on par with other tanks!
    It is listed as the best alternative by you the way i read your post, and fire needs it best alternatives, as the weakest tank.
    From what you write HLS seems nescessary for Elite, ergo summarum HLS is needed to perform as fire which means fire is lacking, but stick to your story bro, Fire is awesome as long as you dont use it.

    No i havent forgot the innates, those weren't powers that filled your LO, and you had to spec every weapon tree to max your stats, but that didnt mean you had to use the different weapons to get the innates. It was a different way to spec, that has been redone and are now gone.

    Your points basically is (the way i read them):
    - HLS is best option for Fire.
    - Fire is not lacking because it has to use HLS to be close to being on par with other powers.
    - You have the option not to use the best power (HLS) therefor it is not needed but you can't expect to be able to tank elite.
    - For HLS not to be needed the devs would have to buff 6 powers to perform better than HLS

    My points are:
    - HLS should be an viable option that perform as well as another power but not better, meaning that the survivability HLS gives should be on par with a shield or self-heal that the power already has and not outperform it
    - Fire is lacking as the options are not as good as HLS
    - If a power from iconic is needed to get the best LO, and the use of it is the only/best way to survive in Elite, the power can be listed as needed
    - For HLS not to be needed tank powers don't have to have 5-6 powers to outperform it, but powers that are on par.

    In my opionion HLS can be debuffed or even removed.

    Iconics should never be listed as the best option, but a viable one, it can be on par, but should never be better. Iconics should be if you like to play more as your favourite superhero and therefor want to replace certain powers to make that happen without it being a major step down in performance.

    Edit: sorry @Batuba for continuing discussion that contains HLS, but my point still stand, HLS should not be the best option, just a viable one, I hope with new buffs this will happen.
  20. p3rf3ctxxxdark Well-Known Player

    Lol haven't been atomic since arce n fie not sure if anything has changed tank wise since....
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