Test Discussion GU 103: Tank Balance

Halleluja, whenever someone lists iconic powers as the answer the power itself is not balanced

You can’t be serious.... HLS will be a key jan most tank loadouts because IT is so good. Not because the powers are bad. The only way that tanks will not use HLS is if every tank powers had abilities buffed so much that they put classed HLS and there was no room for it. How is that hard to understand?

For ice, ice would have to have 5 shields stronger than HLS. Earth would need either shields or ways to mitigate damage that are better than HLS. Fire would have to get such high heals that shields are useless. And so on. It’s ridiculous that people use that argument to say that tanks are unbalanced. If tank powers were buffed that much than the game would be a joke and the devs would have to create more one shot mechanics..

Here’s my argument...what iconic powers are utilized by controllers or healers? And I’m not referring to healers using Pheromone Bloom/EOG cheese. You agreed to our argument even though you were also trying to argue against it. Yes Ice needs it’s shields looked at to offer 5 viable shields in their ice power tray. Fire’s damage mitigation is not worth putting HLS bc it would get eaten through too easily. Rage uses it bc of their vulnerability time when Ire is on cool down and severe punishment is down; when SP is on rage is close to unkillable. Earth really doesn’t need HLS. Atomic needs density’s BSM looked at...far too week.

Are you really comparing tanking to healing and trolling? Ok fine let’s give it a shot.

If there was a healing iconic than yes healers would use it if it was good. Same for trolls. If there was an iconic that gave power than trolls would use it too. HLS is a shield so tanks use it. It’s not that complicated.

To think that the devs would give ice 5 shields stronger than HLS is asinine. No tank needs that much mitigation period. And my point wasn’t to clarify how much tanks needed buffs. It’s to show how ridiculous that would be. No tank should ever need that much mitigation. If you want that much protection than you should not be a tank.

Ice has plenty of shields and does not need 5 op game breaking shields. Ice has winter ward as it’s main shield. It has reflection as it’s spamable. It’s has shatter restraint as it’s group immunity. It has a SC shield as an emergency shield. To think that ice would need all shields buffed to the point that they would be better then HLS is beyond unbelievable.

Fire has backdraft as a burst heal. It has absorb heat as the be all end all heal. Now has immolation as damage funnel. It has stoke flame as permanent hot.

Earth just got buffs/fixes to help out brick tanking to make it lore viable in elite.

Even thou rage was nerfed it’s probably still the best tank power in the game.

And atomic. We’ll atomic is waving hello.

Yes there can be a few adjustments to make some things a little more viable but no power needs be buffed to the point that HLS is useless. I’m tired of seeing so called tanks wanting to go easy mode in elite. Tanking is hard. It’s not meant for everyone.

When exactly do you find absorb to be less than ideal?

Honestly, the only fight where I've found Absorb to be detrimental is FIe fb subs. Also I find it's generally not needed for add tanking but that's a different story. For whatever reason, never had an issue with the cancel bug like we do on DPS.

I agree with Fi e. Soloing Pc e also highlights the impracticality of absorb because you need to manage adds or counter multiple bosses. I'd also add hawkman and barbatos to an extent. It's not that absorb is unusable—you can definitely find spots for it—it's just that it's frustrating for your strongest heal to be your least practical.

I don't have a problem cancelling either as long as I don't spam into absorb.

Why do you find it unpractical though? Absorb = you're in a near permanent state of immunity while moving + insane healing + 5% defense + Fire Soul generation. The only reason I found it to be an issue on FIe fb was because, for whatever reason again (it's magic? iunno), that fight did cause it to bug out a lot and I'd just eat petrification constantly with it.

Maybe it's down to a difference in tanking style or the way our groups are set up, but I don't find it to be more useful than farming counters and bursting my health back up with backdraft. I also don't agree with characterizing it as a state of immunity unless I'm tanking just 1 boss. If I'm holding adds and a boss or multiple bosses, I don't feel so immune while in absorb.

But you are immune, literally. You have Empowered Channeling. You can't be countered/Cced at all except by select special things. Backdraft is a nice lil burst but it's nothing compared to Absorb. Absorb fills your bar.

If you're just talking about cc immunity, then yes, I agree. Maybe you have god stats, but when I'm tanking Lady Blackhawk plus adds, absorb might keep me from being stunned but not from dying—in any reliable sense. Are you saying that when soloing Pc e you're able to just spam absorb and eat damage from 1st boss + adds or last boss + adds?

Yes. If you're already active tanking, which it sounds like you are by PVPing the boss and whatnot, then doing it with Absorb Heat is effectively the same except you have 5% more def most of the time and are constantly healing back all the damage you're taking. If you have a good Troll, you can do Absorb>HV repeat, popping buffs off cd and a/r. The only annoyance with Absorb is you might not be able to catch every lunge counter, but that's a small price to pay for a steady stream of massive healing ticks, cc immunity, 5% extra defense, and perma-capped Fire Soul. Your stats don't have to be anything special to do this.

If you're not dying when not using Absorb, you should definitely not be dying when using it.

Edit: Fire Tanking without Absorb is like Rage tanking without Severe Punishment or Ice Tanking without Winter Ward. It's by far our best Tanking power. Only reason it's not ideal for strictly add tanking is because adds are derpy and you can just bait them into getting themselves countered over and over again anyways such that Absorb become redundant.

Then we are in agreement...remove HLS!!!

I would like to see wildfire a viable burst heal with heals over time and the more enemies that you burn with it will effect the heals over time per biting ticks

If that’s the case then something needs to be done...bc that’s sounds like the most boring tanking ever...just spam a channeling power over and over again...really!?! And you’re excited about spending your entire time tanking with your arm held out.

You still have to Cc, do mechanics properly, and keep your other buffs up like every other tank while also keeping everything burning and ensuring you don't lose Fire Soul. Ice is just "do shield rotation at correct time." Rage is basically just "don't Rage Crash." Every tank power has its schtick. Christ, Fire used to be "pop power and block until you have to pop a power again to keep your mechanic active."

You seem to have a few screws loose... how did what I say translate to remove HLS? I’m sorry but the tanking community shouldn’t have to lose HLS just because you don’t like using it. The shield does exactly what it is supposed to. If you don’t like using abilities outside of your power than stick to regular.

So first you have an issue with HLS then you have an issue with absorb heat? I truly hope the devs never listen to your advice on fixing tanking...

Sorry if my initial reply seemed sarcastic. That wasn't intended.

That having been said, with Absorb Heat fixed so that it heals more than two times, Fire's heals aren't really lacking so much.

Immolation as it is on test is absolutely awesome. I haven't counted the total damage absorbed yet, but it felt way stronger than HL shield or even perfect poise. It would be great if Atomic's Density got a similar treatment.

I take your point, but, for whatever reason, this hasn't been my experience with absorb. If your characterization of absorb is accurate (I'm not neccesarily saying that it isn't), then why would fire's "best tanking power" be so unviable in the hardest possible content,—namely SM? All the other tanks have the luxury of their best tanking power being viable, if not obligatory, in SM (winter ward, severe, gemstone, mass density). Why—if absorb isn't impractical—is fire different in this regard?

Shouldn't it stand to reason that either absorb should be made viable in that way or that the supplementary heals should be buffed to support absorb more effectively?