Test Discussion GU 103: Tank Balance

Discussion in 'Testing Feedback' started by Batuba, Mar 20, 2020.

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  1. SendScrim New Player

    It was. The new immolation is not 100% mitigation like the other shields. Density takes 100% of your incoming damage for a short time. The updated immolation takes only 35% of incoming damage, but for a longer time. It's definitionally the weakest shield because it guarantees that you will always take damage.
  2. DeitySupreme Loyal Player

    That does not make it the weakest shield... immolation turning to a 35% shield means that you bottle neck the amount of damage you take to allow your heals to heal the damage better. This is a good thing for fire. What exactly do you want a shield for? Is it to mitigate damage? Than the new immolation is better. Is it to do a pick up? Stop doing pick ups as a tank.. if you have to do a pick up for what ever reason than use HLS. I’m think those complaining about this change aren’t actually fire on live. Let me put it this way.

    What ever damage immolation can not stop stoke flame and absorb heat will heal it back up. If there is something that does to much damage for stoke flame and absorb heat you have a healer to heal you. If the healer can not heal you than you pop HLS. And let’s not forget that backdraft is actually a pretty good burst heal in itself too.
    • Like x 4
  3. TheLorax 10000 Post Club

    Agreed. I use both BD and Immolation in my loadout, sometimes I get confused if my actual shield is still up.
    • Like x 2
  4. The Anxient Loyal Player

    This ^. I would be thrilled for density to get a similar treatment.
  5. Brav Well-Known Player

    Hello Batuba,

    I like the direction you are going with fire so far, it seems like a slight take and give compared to live. What I mean by that is the upfront damage absorption was reduced some in order to increase its' absorption for spike damage some. So the change has mostly balanced/evened out the upfront and spike mitigation potential but the amount of mitigation is still a bit low compared to damage in take for end content elite raids.

    I've definitely noticed the difference when comparing the damage from each open world bounty (soloed oni, golem, beastboy, shogg,, etc) with much more ease/control over most of the damage/spike damage compared to before. They are currently doable for me on live but the control on damage was a bit more noticeable.

    I believe this is a good start but now these changes should be maximized on to better fires' mitigation some in end content raids/elites. The amount of damage in elites are usually much higher than the open world bounties.

    Possible Slight Additions: (Healing = 2 additional ticks & Shield = 2 additional seconds).

    I believe fires' healing should be increased some and closing some of fires' ability cool downs/gaps a little will help as well. Most of fires' abilities have quite a bit of a cool down/wait before they can use it again.

    Perhaps a change that may address both may be increasing stoke flames and burning determination by an additional two ticks each. (I originally was thinking of having stokes last the full duration but thought about the reasons each ability would have some sort of gap between using another and decided only a slight gap close would be ideal for each ability instead). As to better manage a rotation with each slight gap an ability may have before the next.

    Another thought and possibility in addition to the slight healing increase would be to either increase immolation by an additional two seconds or create a white tactical back mod for it (10% cool down reduction) like the other power shields have, maybe both if having immolation lasting about 15-16 seconds like burning determination (if its' max hits/cap wasn't met yet) isn't too much and as long as you are okay with that ability acting like determination just in reverse; as a semi absorption mitigation versus a semi healing mitigation.

    Possible Passive Buff Increases & Additions: (Passives = Slight Increase + New Additions).

    I believe fires' passives actually lack a bit and with the slight increase above plus a slight passive increase, together both additions should help balance things out.

    Not Blocking Slight Passive Increase: An additional 10% health, healing received (on top of the current 50% passives) and possibly adding a new 15-25% critical healing chance (or restoration instead, if critical healing chance would be too much) should help strengthen fires' healing and survival chances.

    New Blocking Passives: 25-30% health and healing received (of the 50-60%, while not blocking) and 10-15% critical healing chance or restoration, while blocking.

    Blocking (=100% defense) and not Blocking (= 35-60%) Passives for defense already have a similar effect. This effect for fires healing would help balance out fires passives and increase its survival chance for each encounter reaction.

    This is what I believe would definitely help balance fire and finally allow it to shine more in end content/elites without having to play like another tank power. Additional feedback from the developer discussion (GU103: Tank Balance - 2) can be referenced for more possibilities but I feel strongly about this one here after having done some testing recently on the new changes so far.

    (Side Note: The Defense Buff is no longer showing in the effects tab, nor is the new power reduction. I'm not sure if this is intended but figured I mention it just in case).

    Hopefully this can be considered by the developers for further testing. I really do appreciate all of the effort and dedication being put toward balancing and bettering the game step by step. Thank you for your time and consideration.

    Sincerely: Brav
    • Like x 1
  6. SendScrim New Player

    Not sure how you figure that a shield that only mitigates 35% of incoming damage for a moderate period is stronger than one that cancels all incoming damage for a short period. My guess is this would be a semantic argument.

    The overarching point I was making is that fire is not the best at any aspect of tanking. Its shield is the weakest or among the weakest. Its defense is still the lowest. Its heals (aside from backdraft) are the least practical in endgame content. It does have the highest base health, but that is negated by its low overall mitigation. This is why stoke and burning det should be much more substantial than they currently are. Then, I'd have no issue with the immolation update or fire's lack of defense.

    Not that it should matter, but I am fire, and have been since AM.
    • Like x 1
  7. Cyro Committed Player

    What would you rather a shield that lasts 2 seconds but stops all damage or a shield that lasts about 9-11 seconds and prevents 35% damage thats your choice. Fire is the tank that specs the least in dom that is if you arent going with the eheal battery so not only did we have weak stats for our shield but the shield itself had a weak BSM so in elite content it wouldnt last long at all the new changes to the shield make the shield last almost its entire duration which is huge, on paper it sounds like a nerf but this is a massive buff considering we also heal ourselves. Look at gemstone shield, any earth tank worth there salt would tell you most times dont aftershock it all the way because a shield that lets in some damage lasts longer than a shield that prevents all damage making it easier for your healer to keep you alive.
  8. Pyrometers Active Player

    I do agree with an animation changes for burning determination ,also can fire stoke flame receive the burst heal back Ill be fine with a reduction in the heal over time or not.If no change happens to the nonsupercharge power could eternal flame become what it once was before the stats revamp or reignition become a 25% SC?
    • Like x 1
  9. SendScrim New Player

    As I said, I don't mind the change to immolation in a vacuum because it promotes healing, but a decrease in absolute mitigation should be paired with an equal increase in passive self heals. This is why I'm not asking for stronger shields. I'm asking for fire tank to more closely resemble its AM predecessor—like the rest of the tanks do. That requires increased healing. Not shields updates. Not defense updates.

    Fire SHOULD have bad defense and bad mitigation. I just want the heals to appropriately counterbalance it so that fire tanks aren't getting carried by healers in endgame elites and SM.
  10. spack2k Steadfast Player

    • Like x 2
  11. Al Bundy Well-Known Player

    I agree with most of this with the exception of HLS. If we as tanks are still needed to use HLS to be a viable tank then the devs have failed to balance the tank powers
    • Like x 1
  12. L T Devoted Player

    Because fire is primarily a high health self healing tank, not a shielding tank. The idea is...wait for it... To heal back that 65% damage. The shield is just to avoid spikes and give some breathing room.
    • Like x 1
  13. Magnificent Loyal Player

    This is why I made multiple posts in the other thread about a better fix would be to move us back to our previous build (ie: prior to Fire Soul) and just give use the extra natural mitigation we would be getting from Fire Soul. Make that extra mitigation a part of the timed buff that impacted our Health then give it a run on Test.

    Prior to Fire Soul this was how we mitigated damage:

    • an 80% increase to our heals (both self and from others)
    • a 60% bonus to Health for 8 seconds after using a power
    • a bonus of 2.2 * Total Dominance to our Health for 8 seconds after using a power
    The problem was our natural mitigation was too low as a trade-off on our ability to self-heal.

    Instead of just adding extra mitigation to the 8-seconds buff they nerfed our healing, gave us more natural mitigation, added Fire Soul and gave us a shield. So what they did was make us a lesser version of Ice (we're pretty dependent on that single shield) and screw us on healing rotation by making us also focus on keeping up a combo counter.

    In other words, their "fix" for the tank powerset with the lowest natural mitigation was:

    • to give us slightly more natural mitigation (but still not enough)
    • lower our health bonus to only 50%
    • lower the impact of heals to only 50% (I've seen it mentioned this is impacted by Blocking, not sure on that but if so then that is ridiculous)
    • made us dependent on the combo counter to add another 35% mitigation (up to 50% for burning enemies while not blocking)
    • gave us a shield that doesn't heal us
    So what they did, in essence, was to make much of our extra Defense dependent on not turtle tanking while also cutting our Health and healing impact tremendously AND making this powerset that specializes in self-healing as a major part of damage mitigation fairly dependent on a power that doesn't heal us in any fashion.

    While the upcoming fix will lower the amount of combos for Fire Soul from 25 down to 5, making a Tank powerset dependent on combos like that is ridiculous for a number of reasons, those reasons become amplified when looking at our low natural mitigation and are underscored yet again when the extra mitigation is dependent on our not Blocking.

    Changing the powerset to include Fire Soul was the wrong move, sticking with it is just compounding that wrong move. We should be collectively pushing for the changes outlined above instead of the continued pounding of this square peg into a round hole.
    • Like x 2
  14. SendScrim New Player

    Which is why I never advocated for stronger shields or better mitigation...

    The point is really simple: If the immolation update promotes more self-healing...then...wait for it...increase the lacking heals. It's all well and good to raise fire's defense a bit, but as you said, fire is about health and healing—not defense/shields. So why did we get a defense and shield update to fire when self heals were the issue?
  15. DeitySupreme Loyal Player

    Aside from backdraft? So I am sure that you really don’t use fire now. Absorb heat? Probably the strongest self heal in the game between it’s healing amount and short cooldown. If you keep asking for fire to get changed back to fire pre revamp than guess what fire didn’t have a shield back then. Yes fire might have had better heals in it also didn’t have as much mitigation either. If you want then they increase the self heals than they have to removed immolation and fire soul. Fire how it worked before wouldn’t work in today’s games because of how mechanics have changed. Instead of looking back at what was look at the updates from what it is to what it is going to be.. are these changes putting fire in a better place on test than it is on live?
    • Like x 2
  16. SendScrim New Player

    I am fire, actually. A good heal is not just about how much health it restores. Sure, absorb heals a large amount, but it isn't practical when tanking endgame elites. Backdraft heals less but is viable in any situation.

    Is fire currently better on test than it is on live? Sure. More defense tends to have that effect. That's not quite the point, though.
    Everyone recognizes that fire was gutted as a result of revamp so improvements are welcome and neccessary. Everyone also recognizes that fire should be highlighted by its health and heals—not its mitigation. So why is it that we're fixing mitigation and not heals?

    The logic seems simple:
    -Ice has the most mitigation + no heals
    -Earth has the 2nd most mitigation + negligible heals
    -Atomic has 3rd most + solid heals
    -Rage is 4th in mitigation + amazing heals
    -Fire is last in mitigation + (fill in the blank)

    It's clear that fire's heals are not what they should be—which is why the contrast between AM fire and revamp fire is so prevalent.
    • Like x 1
  17. The Anxient Loyal Player

    Finally was able to get on test.

    Earth, the change to fortify was much needed and is an absolute game changer. Bricks survivability is much more reliable.

    Fire is better than it is on live but these changes honestly didn't help as much as I thought they would. Immolation feels like it fits well with the way fire works. With that said fire still needs some love.
    Either a larger health buff when in tank stance or an increase to stoke flames and burning determination. Add a significant burst heal on the front end of a stoke flames and remove the hit cap from burning det.

    Atomic doesn't really feel any different than it does on live. The control resistance is nice in theory but doesn't add much to survivability. Even while being able spam combos without interruption Atomic still feels squishy.
    Biggest think to keep in mind with atomic is that its healing/mitigation requires active upkeep.
    Ice can rotate its shields on the move.
    Earth can move freely with brick while casting fortify golem, shields, etc.
    Fire can cast backdraft and its passive heals and shield while on the move and absorb is mobile.
    Rage is able activate Severe and is completely mobile, only stopping to cancel crash.
    Atomic has to combo constantly to heal itself and maintain the aura. While trying to kite or move you end up in this slow and awkward bunny hop between combos.
    Buff density's bsm and change it to only absord what damage the aura doesn't mitigate so that it lasts longer, similar to the immolation change. Buff the Dom based healing from 40 to 50%.
  18. Templeton Active Player

    Agreed,at least with the Density buff. I can't believe I actually appreciate the 14 sec on aura rather than the 35% resistance on it. Afterall, it's gambling, sucks when we have to rely on chances, be it 15%, 25%, 35% or even 45% (with Density on) you could still get stunned like crazy either way. We need abilities that do something concrete, this isn't artifact breakthrough :rolleyes:. I'd instead add a 3 sec CC immunity after renewing the aura if we really want to stick to CC so much..Either that or yes, buff that Density cardboard shield or change the way it works, absorb a percentage of damage overtime. The changes for atomic are almost as insignificant as rage's. (again, I do appreciate the extra 2 sec on aura).
    • Like x 1
  19. AV Loyal Player

    There are very few situations where Absorb Heat is anything less than ideal in endgame elite...
    • Like x 3
  20. Trexlight Devoted Player

    Fire feels great. Immolation change was a bit to get use to but I certainly like it. Power costs was a great change and soloing the Bounty bosses for testing, Power bar barely emptied. Heals are good stuff too. Backdraft even hitting one target heals very well. I removed my Artifacts to test only Fire as a Power at CR293 and it feels good.

    I used my girlfriend's Fire Tank to make a comparison and on Live, she barely lasted with her heals. On Test, she lasts longer and can certainly see and feel the difference.

    Earth changes are good too. Brick's Self Repair healing is certainly strong but i wonder what, if there is one, is the trigger for Brick to use it so that when I use Fortify Golem or Totem so Heals arent being "wasted" aka overhealing. Totem was a good sustain of healing over time where Fortify Golem was the "oh crap" quick heal button. Fortify is strong too. 6 sec duration with 6 sec CD. You could almost use it every time off CD if you wanted.

    Rage honestly, feels no different. I didnt spec into all Dom yet but my usual Tanking build so no difference or threat. The lower hit counter is very nice too. Quicker to recover the Health Buff for sure.
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