Fury outperforms Crystal by a large amount (50%?)

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This was done on glitched sparring target (no power given back), and yet fury is still ahead crystal by a miles. Running with a BOP troll or not is more like a player's choice. I don't think it is too unrealistic to ask for that. You don't even have any real arguments that explains why this is the case:

. Fury has higher burst than Crystal: this is about baseline damage or dps in general.
. Troll with BOP is something you don\t often run with: well then find one
. This is NOT intended for Fury to be stronger than Crystal, if yes it shouldn't be that big: check GU103 update, devs notes. Even with Crushed PI being applied, Crystal still can't beat Fury with both have access to BOP.

Woah woah woah. Let’s not get carried away and call it an RP build lol. Have you seen some of those builds? I mean yikes!!

On a serious note. Upping the damage just wouldn’t be a real option because it would mean that something else would need to be lowered to compensate. It’s easy enough to say that all they need to do is increase the damage to make pet builds viable. But what happens when they are used within the meta build instead of a pet build? All this would do is shift the meta to be the same builds but on earth and sorc. Making pet builds viable would mean first defining how a pet build in dcuo would even look like in a competitive level.

Pets can’t crit pets scale with cr instead of stats. Pets have their own AI that can’t be directed. A while ago I said let’s should scale with health. This would mean that in order to make a pet build the player would need to sacrifice might/prec in order to buff pet damage. Meaning that the blueprint for a pet build can be made. Pet AI would need to be updated to allow players to actually direct them. Example being that they attack whoever your primary target is (who you’re locked on). More abilities need to be created to occupy the users slots in order to make players have to choose between pet abilities and user abilities. For example one that causes pets attack to turn to AoE to allow for an actual AoE and ST build. Maybe one that give pets a buff when the user gets a buff.

For the love of… again. Terrible testing method.

LOL, it is an RP build, it's that bad, maybe not Superman Frost Breath bad, but it's pretty bad

Look, also on the serious note, I really don't care how they improve the pets, the point I was really making is that they need improvement, if anything I'm sure we at least agree on that point and really I'm open to any suggestions as to how.

I literally do nothing and just let pets attack freely, and you still say it's terrible. What's the best method in your opinion? This is from your previous comments:

. Situation that is unlikely to occur: Is it too hard to get a troll with that requirement for you? This sounds like a you problem though.
. Pets having unlimited power because of regular sparring target/BOP: The 2nd test is shown against glitched one, and you still insist that it is bad test. The videos also proves that BOP is sufficient enough to give pets full power bar with just one tick. So the "unlimited power" issue is solved. About BOP giving power to only 8 people, you don't know the answer, so am I, I guess we wait for the confirmation from devs perhaps.

Yup that I agree with lol. I actually enjoy summoner builds in other MMOs. Unfortunately dcuo has a terrible pet system that I just don’t think they have the tech to do a proper pet balance.

Just for that I’m turning all my toons to kryptonians!!

You keep saying that but at least he's providing data. Either you provide data since you keep critiquing his or else your whole point of even responding here is irrelevant.

Providing data? To what exactly? To show that the special attacks of fury are stronger than those of crystal? That is obvious. What I am criticizing is his notion that what he’s testing means anything meaningful in an actual dps loadout an rotation. There is more to dps than “this hits harder so it means this power is better”. That is just a ludicrous sentiment. A while ago someone tried to say atomic needed a rework because it didn’t have any usable DoTs while other powers did. Yes it’s true that if you look strictly at dots and she absolutely nothing else than atomic will be worse. But that is absolutely meaningless as atomic has other factors that play a role into its dps.

You just can’t take a single aspect if a given power and isolate that to showcase that the power as a whole is lacking. The OPs notion that fury hits harder than crystal so it needs to change is in itself a terrible point to make because the OP is ignoring everything else within the kits which played a role into why they do the damages that they do.

Great the op found that fury’s special attack hits harder than crystals. What then? That mean’s absolutely nothing which they can’t seem to understand. And if they can’t then there is absolutely nothing else to explain to them as they can’t grasp how dps actually works.

I think you're missing the point. This thread is not about Earth vs. Sorcery, it's about Crystal vs. Fury. The premise is that these are the same type of pet and are generally believed to be pretty much the same. The testing indicates that this isn't the case. Considering BOP just got a buff, I think it will become a more popular artifact (though it's already fairly popular), and this scenario will occur in content. Same type of power, noticeably different performance. That's the issue.

I don't think it's fair in this context to consider the powers as a whole, since OP only wanted to point out that similar powers across two different powersets behave differently. I think an appropriate analogy would be comparing finishers. Hypothetically, let's say Munitions' finisher was doing less damage than Ice's finisher, but both have roughly similar performance in an optimal realistic ST rotation. In terms of overall game balance this is probably fine, but that doesn't change the fact that Munitions' finisher is doing less damage than Ice's finisher. Same type of power, different powersets, noticeably different performance. I think it would still be valid to point out this difference, because that type of power is supposed to be the same across powersets.

"You just can’t take a single aspect if a given power and isolate that to showcase that the power as a whole is lacking."

It sems to me that you are the one who is projecting this notion here. I don't see where the OP has made statements regarding Earth vs. Sorcery, only Crystal vs. Fury. As I've explained, I think such a comparison makes sense because those pets were intended to be similar, just like we can compare finishers across different powersets. Your point that in balance, you have to look at entire kits, is also valid, but is also not the same point that OP is trying to make. I also don't think it would be fair to dismiss OP's point as insignificant, since they've said nothing incorrect and have even provided evidence for their claims. Personally, I find that your tendency to be contrarian, condescending and/or dismissive in various forum threads actually erodes your credibility, along with the fact that you haven't provided nearly the same quality of video evidence as the OP has. While parse results of Earth vs. Sorcery, pet-based builds or not, both using Crystal/Fury, would go a long way in backing up your claims, I still think that doesn't make any of what the OP has said less correct.

These are supposed to be the same type of powers in two different powersets. They can be unique, but considering that their mechanics function pretty much identically (get power, such as from BOP or Fortify/Offering -> perform special attack), but one of them is noticeably outperforming the other, I think that this is worth pointing out.

I’m obviously the one yo\u’re talking about when it comes to atomic … and I still think atomic needs dots, and I didn’t see “nothing else” so don’t mis represent my stance thank you.

It’s why do people use rsk and dot abilities when they have access to them? They are passive damage which atomic lacks atomic they also lack strong enough burst abilities to coincide with their combos.

I’ve tested and tested atomic … any deviation from its combos in an aoe situation makes little to no difference in damage within its own power set… the only ability that will increase your damage out while weaved in between combos is Geiger blast … and that is point blank aoe which is risky especially in elite.

Anything else working within atomics own tree weaved into your combos is either a damage loss or a negligible increase not worth even slotting.

If you don’t use rsk in atomic it’s a significant damage loss, and it’s giving you what again ? Passive damage just like dots all dots are passive, and what
happens when I add heat vision with its dots in it through the artifact ? A significant damage increase, why ? Cause a burst hit with dots providing passive damage increases my damage out significantly. Which is exactly what I asked for for atomic an ability that would do aoe damage and provide an aoe dot similar to what heat vision does when added.

So if you are referring to me please don’t pretend or misrepresent me as though I came to this conclusion out of thin air… I was asking for the power set to have its own options so we aren’t as reliant on iconics as we are now. In order to get the most out of atomic we rely heavily on including iconics more so than any other class all I was asking for were options.

You seem to have a huge issue with anyone asking the devs to do anything , like your some dev protector and only you shall give them any ideas, And spare me any discussion on providing numbers, until you start providing your own I don’t wanna hear it. Put up or shut up.

Ok but then what? Fury’s special attack is stronger. That is obvious. That was tested already in the mercy thread even I have shown this to be the case. So you’re saying the OP made a thread solely to point out something that has already been discussed thoroughly? And even earlier in the thread I said that yes fury did do more damage and told the op that it was intentional specifically because of the powers kits that’s te available to them. So the op still continued to make claims.

So what is the OPs point? He said that, I said that. It’s been tested extensively by multiple players. Or is he pointing it out to get it buffed to make crystal do the same while ignoring the rest of the kit and the reason why the damage profiles are what they are?

Surprisingly, you weren’t the one I was talking about lol.

There is one thing that you seem to not understand. DoTs are not passive damage. The only passive damage in the game is rsk. That’s it. Passive is you not having to cast them. With rsk all you have to do is summon it one time and he’s there attacking with you. Yes if it dies then you have to resummon but there are ways to get around that.

At any given second you can only cast 1 damaging ability (with few exceptions). This whole “x power needs dots because it’s only one that doesn’t have passive damage” is not true because you are ACTIVELY casting those powers. You either spend a second to cast a dots or you use that second to cast a burst. Most dps (who are competitive) are not filling their loadouts with 4-5 dots even if they have access to it. A fire dps will not (shouldn’t) be using infernal, overheat, stoke flame, meteor, with rsk, and a sc. Even on prec where they can use the loadout for background damage they wouldn’t use them. The whole notion that atomic needs a rework because it doesn’t have dots is idiotic.

And fyi, I have already shared my atomic rotation and loadouts numerous times. I just don’t share them with people who refuse to accept that maybe what they themselves is testing is an issue because it’s just a waste in time.

Do you even realize that I'm not talking about which ability hits hardest right? And why are you saying that I want to buff Crystal's damage? That's not what I want. At this point, you just miss my points, and to some extent, twisting my words for whatever reasons.

I have already shown how I tested, why there was such a big difference, and what I wanted. You, on the other hand, gave some bad arguments (like power issue, etc) . At the very least, can you list your arguments or "other factors" to explain why:

1) Both can cast 2 abilities. But only Fury can cast them back to back, Crystal can't (?)
2) It's "fine" for you that Fury's DPS should be 40-50% higher than the other pet, Crystal (?)

Probably because they are different pets? Crystal, Fury, Turret (gadgets) are all permanent battle pets, but each of them is created taking into account the specifics of these powers.
Since they are designed to synergize with other powers of these powers, their attacks and damage (as well as other skills and interactions (such as shield, Pi, etc.)) are different.
These pets, unlike robot or trinket tiers pets (whose damage is almost identical regardless of appearance (there are some nuances, but that's not the point)) have more complex interaction with the rest of the skills of these powersets and therefore their damage and behavior differ.

So you’re not asking for them to buff crystal?

You mean this line wasn’t you?

Must have imagined you asking for that buff huh.

As for other factors. You mean how earth can clip combos together which sorc can not? How sorc can miss its key abilities while earth can not? Must have also imagined that these 2 power sets worked differently and didn’t just have crystal and fury.

And as already mentioned. Your testing is flawed for the very simple reason that you are ignoring everything else the powers have access to. If all you’re going to do in a raid is stand still and let fury and crystal attack while a troll has bop then yes fury will out perform crystal. Great job on uncovering common knowledge. But no dps does that. No dps will just stand there and not do anything else while letting these pets just go at it. Dps will be using other abilities and a rotation.

Proxy on the other hand brought these pets up within a different point. And he’s right. Pets in general are not the best to build around because a true pet build isn’t as good as a meta build for a number of reasons. Many of which I already listed.

I believe the latest pet changes update (GU103?) has everything you want to know about them. Crystal and Fury are pretty much always on the same level according to devs, their DPS should be on par in some way. If there is a gap, it's still in an acceptable range, like 5-10%. But 50% like this, it's extreme, and it should be look at. Also, Henoshock's explanation is very good, you can check it which is just above.

Did anyone ask for 4-5 dots in a load out for atomic ? Musta missed that part cause I haven’t seen anyone asking for that … I’ve seen people asking for atomic to get some love so it’s not as reliant on iconics, no one’s saying rework for the sole purpose cause it doesn’t have dots… show me who said that, point this person out who is saying that, since it’s not me you’re talking about.…. I certainly haven’t made that claim… I’ve said changing one or two abilities to apply aoe dots from ranged would help atomic this is why people use solar amped heat vision to make up for atomics lack of dots and burst between combos people use frost breath clipped with weapon attack for its lack of hard hitting burst damage between combos…. You can tell me they don’t til youre blue in the face but they do use them for those reasons, and it doesn’t seem to make atomic op.

Either way this isn’t an atomic thread so I’ll just leave it there.

Explain to me, how does Crystal synergize with the rest of Earths powers to make up for the lost damage it suffers when compared to Fury and explain the rationale behind why that's justifiable to make Earth work for extra damage that Sorcery obtains via Fury with no effort.

I agree with the general sentiment here, Fury and Crystal might behave slightly differently in how they attack etc, but their end results are supposed to be the same.

If Crystal is indeed under performing by ~50% then it needs to be fixed.

Just did some tests... in a situation without B.O.P artifact where power regen depends on Offering or Fortifi Golem, both pets have almost the same dps... but when B.O.P regen is added to normal regen.. .the situation changes in the direction of the Fury (Crystal uses a large attack (which is weaker than the similar one from the Fury) and immediately cuts animation with the help of shurikens, which ultimately gives even a little higher burst than "the large attack+atack" of the Fury. Fury's Ai is able to skip a normal attack in order to perform a large one if enough power...and Crystal AI is programmed to make an additional attack to compensate for the reduced damage of a large attack...)....sorry it's hard for me to explain in English...