Fire DPS and its need for a small fix.

Might fall on deaf ears, or seem like I'm beating a dead horse here, but closed mouths dont get fed. Fire DPS has a broad range of views on how it performs. Some say its low tier, some say mid tier, few say it's top tier. I love Fire. Its my main, and will remain that till this game ends. I think overall its in need of 2 (maybe 3) small fixes and it's a top tier powerset. Overall I've seen a spike of Fire players at high end game. Some very good players doing well damage wise. People became hip to Fires potential on Boss Damage after the new scoreboard came out. I anticipated that. Fire is arguably the best ST DPS powerset IMO. There are a few good Fire players out there that take full advantage of that. People argue that HL and Gadgets is better. They might be. Not arguing that. I do think people sleep on Fire alot and its potential. HL and Gadgets parse better, I can not argue that at all, but in instances....totally different story. I've seen great ST damage from HL and Gadgets on the regular. In my own experience it's been few and far in between when thay have out damaged my Fires ST damage.

Long story short. Fire is on the horizon as a good DPS powerset. Good players are already showing its potential. There's only 2 issues I think need attention when it comes to Fire DPS. Most shortcomings can be tolerable.

What's not tolerable is Mass Detonation and its misses. Sometimes its great, sometimes its nothing at all. Consistency in Mass Det hitting is greatly needed.
The 2nd ability is Absorb Heat. IMO it is single handedly probably the best ST ability across all powersts, with only 1 drawback...about 99% of the time you cannot cancel out it once it's cast. That's a huge issue in elite content. The ability to block cancel is needed. Those are my 2 biggest complaints from myself and other fire players I've talked to aside from defense or healing buffs on the tank stance side of things.

Other wants...
Spontaneous Combustion - needs a small buff it needs better damage from interaction when exploding when other abilities hit after its cast before them.

Overheat - needs a buff or lower the powerscost. Its not worthy of the powercost being 300 and its weak compared to other DOTs.

I'd love for one of the devs to shed some light on the mystery that is Mass Detonation. I don't really care if it hits crazy hard, I'd just like a little consistency to know what I should expect from the power. An 8k crit versus a 30k crit in the exact same scenario is pretty wild.

Ice frost blast is the same...hits or misses! Sucks cause it’s also very interuptable!

I can't believe how bad spontaneous combustion's damage is, considering the huge cooldown following and the low probability of the actual explosion taking place.

I totally agree with Mass Det's misses, which seem to be a LoS issue. It should work in the same way as meteor strike (if the enemy is targeted, and in range, it should hit, no matter if the enemy suddenly ducks around a corner). At the moment, pets hovering too high, an NPC tossed into the air from knockback, etc. can all make the power miss. Can a dev respond to how it's designed to target? Does it send a straight, invisible beam out to the target or something?

I agree about overheat as well, especially since the AoE is pretty tight. I think a while back they nerfed it because people complained about fire being able to clip so many dots together in short succession. But I agree that it's not worth the cost, especially since its AoE is very tight, so it doesn't even affect groups of adds unless they're literally slow-dancing together, lol..

I'm definitely in the minority here but I rarely ever have issues with mass det. I definitely have more issues with meteor. There are so many times where I throw and get nothing for it. And, right now, the one power that I have the most trouble with is absorb heat. Sometimes I can block cancel other times I can't, then there are times where I get stuck in the animation for 20-30 seconds.

Fire has been my go to since launch. And I love the position it's in right now. Great single target, great range. I do think sc and oc could use some love tho.

Totally agree with Mass Det needing a proper explanation as to the inconsistency of the damage.

Also Absorb Heat needs to be able to be block cancelled all the time, not just whenever the game feels like it.

I tried to video some of Mass Det missing last night on parsing. I had to stop short of what I wanted to shiw because my wife cane home from out of town and had to cut it short. I will make that video asap. What I did see,bwith a fellow leaguemate and Fire player was....It was more on the single target than 3 targets. For whatever reason mass det was hitting a little more consistent (just spamming it) on 3 targets last night at first...I guess trying to make a liar out of me...but when it did hit those 3 targets its was mostly in the 5 to 7k per target range. Occasionally crit'ing from 17k to 20k on some (which is great). If it is consistent at hitting in the 5 to 7k range, total damage ranging from 15000 to 21000 range doesnt quite constitute a 450 powerscost. Fireburst hits way harder, is consistent, and has the same 450 powersosts. Mass Det started to miss more when not spamming and running thru a rotation. Alot of times when follwed by another ability, (let's say Wildfire) Wildfire would hit, with nothing from mass Det. So in total 450 powercost from Mass Det followed by Wildfire at 300 powercost I got ranges from 6 to 8k total damage when not crit'ing and 12 to 17k when crit'ing. So in total of 750 powersosts for both of those abilities topping out at 17k is atrocious for the costs. Upon further review the most likely misses involve pets and knockbacks cancel Mass Det out from doing anything. On my single Target I did approximately 10 rotations in a row at one time, starting with Meteor or Meteor Strike (which cause knockdowns) Mass Det hit for 0 damage. I took Mass Det out, and found that often wildfire would do 0 damage when NPC's where in the air from being juggled by knockdowns from Meteor Strike. On top of all that, the cast time is just wasted time doing damage, and the cherry on top for Mass Det is its very interruptible.

0 damage at anytime is crucial from any ability. If we had a Dev inform is on how these abilities are supposed to work targeting wise, that could be beneficial when making a build/rotation.

If overheat was clippable it might be worthy of its powercost and damage. To me, to do good damage speed is a must. Fire has alot of slow cast times as it is, so most hard hitting abilities are back end loaded for damage, so it only makes sense to be quick to bosses or adds and getting abilities cast asap.

Spontaneous Combustion is a funny ability, sometimes you can get 3 or 4 explosions after cast hitting other abilities (preferably Absorb Heat or Snuff Out, as tested Heat Vision does not seem to activate explosions as often as AH and SO) and sometimes you might get 0 to just 1.

I would be a stretch to say Fires in a bad spot, its not. I still do good damage despite its drawbacks. Its not terrible at all, just frustrating at times. Its hard for me to ignore those drawbacks. Too many inconsistencies in abilities. I have spent countless hours sparring and testing...and have noticed the same things in content. Fire's just inconsistent and powerhungry. If there is no easy fix then just lower powercosts. If Im going to do 0 damage from an ability like Mass Det, then lower its powersost to 300. Thats bit easier to swallow doing 0 damage at 300 versus 450. I would prefer the consistency hitting targets. It should work like Meteor Strike. If that is not an option, then speed up the cast time to somewhere between Meteor Strike and Wildfire.

I think the key to helping Fire overall is just the consistency, 1st and foremost. Maybe just an explanation on how these abilities are designed to work could help as well. Like the targeting. Why does Meteor Strike look similar and always hit from just about anywhere and Mass Det doesnt. At times I am just baffled by what Fire does.

Fireburst will always outperform Mass Det, for several reasons:

• Fireburst is short/mid-range vs. long distance.
• Fireburst gets a damage buff for being a conal attack
• Firebust has no CC effects (which always increase the power cost of an ability) while Mass Det has a stupid juggle or knockdown at the end of the cast, which is not useful in any situation, yet the devs for some reason refuse to remove it

However, wildfire, firebust and mass det are really fire's only big hitters, besides absorb heat for single targeet, so most people have to include them in the layout anyway. If weapons were in a better place, then clipping some weapon combos with melee AoE abilities would help out more.

Thanks for testing out those LoS issues, i've noticed them a lot more since you mentioned it. Also, for some reason, moving around too much can also cancel Mass Det, like jumping or spinning around quickly. Wildfire misses if things are in the way, as does Mass Det, and even our main DoT (can't remember the name right now since not logged in) the huge field, often drops at your feet instead of the target unless you specifically tab-target.

I even hate the way that Fireball Barrage is literally projectiles that take forever to reach the target, so in the case of Johnny quick, for example, they can all miss. Of course, maybe they buffed the damage to take into account the projectiles, in which case it's high-risk, high-reward, lol.

I just don't understand how they handle targeting with fire, while rage's ranged abilities are literally projectiles in a sense, yet never miss.

I tend to type out too much, so i didnt want to throw in the comparison of FB and MD....but u stated it perfectly. They work very different, but the powercost warrants the ability when it comes to Fireburst, it does not with Mass Det.

Fireball Barrage Ive just kinda adapted and tend to lunge at enemies and cast or hover (Im flight) abive and cast. Best way I know to make sure they hit, and yet sometimes it still misses.

Seems to me that Fires main issue is targeting.

Weapons work pretty decent with Fire. Bow/MA smokebomb WM with Inferno, Stoke flames, Fiery Weapon, and Immolation all clipped together then SmokeBomb, wildfire, Smokebomb Flashpoint, SB Wildfire, SB Flashpoint...rinse reapeat. Parseses good numbers in all focuses. WE, HYB, or SP. You can battletank almost with almost the same rotation. Just swap out Wildfire with backdraft. I use DW combos in between flashpoint and backdrat till others are off cooldown. Fun way to play.

Can anyone post a video of mass det missing? I'm trying right now and I can't get it to miss. Id like to see what's going on. Idk maybe you guys are jumping because you cancel it with a jump. I'm only on the sparing targets, so maybe it's something in an instance with line of sight or something.

I never have seen a "miss" unless something like a pillar gets in my way. My main problem with it is the inconsistency with the hits. Sometimes low, sometimes high, with no pattern to discern what causes the inconsistency. Also, like someone mentioned earlier, the power cost and cast time should warrant the high damage.

The thing with Ice's Frost Blast is that you have to let the channel end before you cast another power. The channel on Frost Blast is uninterruptible or (able to clip) before its channel is finished, which causes the power to be cast, channeled, and if clipped with another power before the damage sets in, the damage is lost, and Frost Blast is stuck in a cooldown for a few seconds. That imo needs to be fixed. I have become very well known on when to cast another power so I get the damage from Frost Blast, but its still a problem because it does happen to me sometimes, and it is beyond aggravating.

I ran tests from a stationary position, grounded, no jumping or flying. Even went as far as allowing Mass Det to finish before casting the next ability. I will try an produce video footage this weekend to show my "misses" and combat log to show damage being done. There's a good possibility it might not "miss" but the damage is so abysmal it is hardly noticeable. I will test every which way I can to show the varying outcomes of Mass Det and other abilities "missing" when I am clearly in range and not cancelling out any casts. If anything I may learn something. Wish a Dev would just chime in or send me a message so I can further understand why there is so much inconsistency in the damage abilities, mainly Mass Det.

Exactly. In my case, for example, the invasion alert in the Chinatown Magic Shop boss fight is notorious for it. Between the pillars and raised central dais, its easy to cast close to the target, have them squeak around slightly, so you can still see them but no damage registers. Meteor strike, however, does hit. And since you can't jump to get closer or clear obstacles (this is another one that makes no sense to me since jumping doesn't actually interrupt the cast at all, and you can't block anyway, so why should it cut out the damage?) many boss fights with NPCs and backup out, etc. seem to cause LoS problems.

Ok. This is what my findings are...but 1st a couple corrections. The powercost on FB and Mass Det are 400 not 450. 2nd, Mass Det isnt really missing, the damage is not showing unless it's a crit. Im at CR238. My might stands at a tick over 26k. Mass Det was hitting for an average of 14 to 15k. When crit'ing it was in the 25 to 35k range mostly. With the combat log going it accounted for damage I wasnt seeing normally, except the crits. Thats a relief, but it also brings questions to the surface like, why is Mass Det a 400 powercost ability if the normal hit is ONLY 14 to 15k? That's terrible. When casting Fireburst (the other 400) I averaged about 32000 to 42000. That makes sense. Mass Det though, 14000 to 35000, thats an enormous difference. Its a crap shoot whether Icm going to get good damage out of it for the costs. Granted, its ranged...I understand that. The long cast time that's interruptable, doesnt seem reasonable to me. That gap should be closer in my opinion. Maybe 27k base damage crit'ing for 45 to 50k seems reasonable to me. I didnt think video was neccessary, and I am perfectly ok being wrong and learning something new. Mass Det is still questionable being a 400 cost ability and having such a huge margin between normal and critical hits.

Fireburst just works differently. The reason for the huge gap in Mass det is it only has the one chance to crit. Fireburst gets four, which results in the slim chance of walking away without at least one crit. When Mass det crits tho, i very rarely see firsburst hitting a higher number. i think on single target, fireburst needs 3 crits to hit a higher damage total than a mass det crit.

on the 3 person target, fireburst seems VERY consistent, while again, mass det has a HUGE gap in damage. for me, without a pi and at 21k might, it can hit for 20k all the way up to over 45k depending on crits. Fireburst will sit in the 35k-40k range very consistently AND very consistently beat mass det because mass det would need 2-3 crits. At 2 crits i was at about 38 k, 3 crits was about 46k

The thing is, fireburst should beat mass det pretty consistently. Mass Det is a max range power. I have hit the target even when my reticle was white. AND, the thing that sets Mass det apart, imo, is the cooldown. I think its 1.1 seconds or something. It allows for rotations such as mass det wildfire mass det. Fireburst cant do that. Fireburst cant even do a fireburst ->mass det-> wildfire -> fireburst rotation. With the range limitations and cooldown limitations of fireburst, if they increased mass det's damage, it would outclass fireburst pretty badly.

The one thing im not sure about is the animation. i always assumed they had the same animation timing but i could be wrong. Oh and my numbers were without a PI because im lazy.

It's not really whenever the game feels like it. Absorb Heat can be cancelled if you hit block right after casting. But if you wait a second you will be stuck. I also get stuck in the animation lots. Most times I noticed it happens when I use it with little to no power left, but it also happened once in a while with a full bar.

The Mass Det thing I think is because if it hit every time it would be almost unfair insane damage. If it hit everytime they would either have to lengthen the cooldown, of nerf the damage it hits for. A 40-60k. crit everytime with such a fast cooldown and low power cost would have other players whining for a nerf

I will agree that Absorb heat needs to have the ability to jump cancel. One of the hardest hitting single target moves in the game is almost unusable in elite content because you get locked in animation and then die from some scripted mechanics if you cant. Also did it used to be a channeled move? I though it was working that way because I was using Heat Vision/Absorb Heat on bosses before the update and ran empowered channeling in the hands and I don't remember being interrupted at all. Now it happens all the time.

Mass Det / Fireburst I prefer FB, its way more consistent and reliable but MD does have its uses (Johnny Q fight in PanE). Would love MD to hit regularly but its been this way for a long time now and its never been fixed .

Noticed with the drop of Earth 3 that the Meteor was missing frequently and sometimes not even rendering the animation. This being the SC generator and a PI makes it frustrating to use and wishing Inferno was a SC generator instead.

That would lower inferno's damage considerably. No thanks. Lol.

I figured out how to get the most out of fire's PI. Reroll to munitions.
Consistently stronger with alot less work. And thats just using 4powers..... with bot sidekick and an sc. Its just dumb.