Test Discussion Episode 34: Difficulty Feedback

Discussion in 'Testing Feedback' started by Avair, Mar 19, 2019.

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  1. EconoKnight XIII Legion

    You need them? I thought that was your argument - that people shouldn’t be upset about missing a style and a few feat points per DLC. Those add up too.

    And again to be fair regarding ZooE, just as many people still run PanE (a raid you’ve noted as too easy since its release). Those are rerun because the drop rate of the special item is rather low and they sell for a good bit of money on broker. It’s not about difficulty at all, and that’s where the devs get misled.

    But I’ve laid out my points enough, and there’s no reason to continue ad nauseum. My intention was to give the other side a voice given how lopsided the testing community is. I must admit that I am intrigued to see what would happen if they pulled the trigger and stalled most of the game’s population from part of the progression scheme (even if those players did complete regular gear). How would it be received if artifacts were not a game changer but instead just something that gains one entry? If the content was designed to significantly slow progression, would the unicorn of those “who would come back and be engaged” appear? After all, it would have be those who aren’t here - the people responding in this thread never left the game to my knowledge.

    It would be interesting to watch what happened.
    • Like x 1
  2. Proxystar #Perception

    I do agree, All I'm saying is context has to be remembered and tempered so as to not go overboard. I've agreed numerous times on record that Hive E and Machine E were ok in terms of a difficulty benchmark, primarily because they had meaningful mechanics that had to be overcome rather than just stacking health and or damage.

    They contained attacks that had to be observed and mechanics that had to be observed in order to succeed. All I'm saying is that we don't want to make things too insanely difficult because we only want to provide a challenge to the 0.5%, now I'm not saying I've seen anyone suggest that we do so I'm merely expressing a general reminder to the devs directly as is my right, as to that point.

    I also don't think we should be putting any mechanics in that encourage the stacking of precision dps or any particular build. High health encourages people to do that which in turn encourages a FOTM approach, what we need is the meaningful mechanics to continue that have to be over come like the gas phases on terra for example, the deathstroke phases and the like, controlling adds like the mechanics and turrets, this is what has to be focused on.

    With that being said I've agreed with numerous things Ules and Brother Allen have said about the raids in general as they've been much more concise in their feedback this time about what mechanics are there and what could potentially be done to improve upon them.
    • Like x 1
  3. Proxystar #Perception

    Yeah I agree, in my mind two artifacts in particular have severely changed the dyanmics of the game as they got introduced. Venom Wrist Dispenser which pushed through the very powerful precision bow flurry single target meta and the EOG which has turned into an incredibly damaging supercharge damage dealer that in fact has also caused conflict within the game as people run away from the circle. In fact it's actually allowing people to also spam shields and the like as well through rapid supercharge generation.

    This rapid supercharge generation changes the very foundations of the elite content because it makes them easier through healers being able to rapidly shield the group mitigating any meaningful risk from big attacks, this can also give the skewed perception of the content being easier than it should because of the impact the artifact is actually having.

    I've said elsewhere as well that these artifacts certainly make it easier for all players and you don't currently need to have them to complete content; if you're good enough... but these artifacts in the hands of an elite co-ordinated group are having a very significant impact in my view, changing what might otherwise be somewhat of a challenge in to a 15 minute cake walk.

    It's catch 22 because at the same time as not making the content too hard to the extent that you need them you can't make it too easy to the point where they trivialize it.

    I'm not sure I'm conveying my point clearly but yea, moderation is definitely needed, every time an artifact is introduced we have to really look at the overall impact it's going to have no only in and of itself, but when combined with others.
  4. ObsidianChill Community "Trusted"

    It's not so much high health bosses that encourage the stacking of precision dps it is the fact that precision dps don't have any drop off in splitting damage due to the specific weapon mastery being used in the meta. So might dps largely just have heat vision or if they are lucky a hard hitting purely single target power like tazer pull. What that leads to is a situation where they have multiple bosses and adds at the same time during fights because that is how content seems to have been balanced for quite some time just adding in my npcs to overwhelm the fight, which in that case damage becomes much slower because for 1) a good percentage of might dps don't even have single target specific armories and just use a regular aoe rotation and 2) the multiple targets split damage drawing out the fight. The perfect example of this is Machine Elite which was made much easier wtih precision dps because they could sustain high damage on hive master where might dps its a slower burn no matter how much might or skill points they have so in amount all the beast boy adds there is a greater chance for the group to die whereas with precision dps they don't have to worry about the splitting to the same degree.

    I'm not saying they have to balance content around precision vs might dps that is just how its played out so far and more outlines the balance issues with certain weapon mastery combos but mechanics and not just adding in more adds (despite asking for it in Shattered Gotham Elite just because the adds and the tentacles would add another element to the fight, not asking for more just more than 0) Fellowship of the Arcane follows this in the last fight because its 3 sub-bosses surrounded by adds. The adds in the Tala fight in Shattered Gotham has enough gap between the add spawns so there is enough focus on pure single target.
  5. Proxystar #Perception

    I agree, you can and should put some mechanics in place to mitigate the artifact, not entirely though otherwise it defeats the purpose of the artifact. You have to keep it where the artifact does provide a meaningful advantage but not an advantage that trivializes the content as a result.

    So if where a tank gets hit with the Murk Gut Hook they have 80 artifacts they might take an 80% hit and could die if their healer isn't on point a 160 artifact tank might take a 60% hit.

    It feels like presently the artifacts are however making too much of a difference, they need a bit of a tone back, not because we want to penalise the people for leveling them up but because we don't want them to undermine the content itself, especially not the content that is the relevant tier. It's one thing to trivialize old content when you're over powered, it's another to do it at relevance.

    And yes, that is exactly why I cringe a little inside where people ask for 10 artifact slots, even a 4th under the current dynamics would blow the game even further wide open.
    • Like x 1
  6. Proxystar #Perception

    Of course, but no, I just meant having high health in and of itself encourages players to go for whatever meta is most efficient and burning the single target down, which is currently the precision meta.

    There are the odd might powers that can keep up a little, but of the on fire precision dps I've ever run up against, I've not generally speaking seen any might players keep up with them, but as you say the might players will always suffer some split.

    I also agree, I don't want to see difficulty increased simply by adding adds either, although it's useful in places I'd much rather see a boss that has a wide range of innovative and engaging mechanics that players have to learn and follow and adhere to in order to succeed and if you need to chuck some adds in sometimes then cool, but I don't personally and this is me personally like fights where you just try to overwhelm a group with adds to make it difficult :)
  7. Yvtq8K3n Committed Player

    Having check mechanics is a great way to prevent this over stats problem. No longer how many cr you at if you dont do what u suposed to do, you should die, easy:) But i can't agree whit it entirelly, like artifacts should be situationals. If artifact A doesn't work, maybe is time for use that Artifact B that you didnt feed. This kind of thinking is and should be, a elite player mentallity. Elite content is supose to be hard, unforgiven and punishable. You can not say: yes is Elite but only if the tank dies all group can wipe, CotE/ThroneE lb example. The problem the game faces is: Only one role is Hard, tank. Bosses hit Hard, adds hit even harder, yet healers do 1,2,3 magic! dps pew pew dead! troll battery mode initializate!

    Im looking forward to more feedback, lets make this one of the best elite raids:) After all this threads is for only people that test raids and to give feedback.[(keep the good job:)]

    *cought*add no one dieing feat, missing thoose:) <3
    • Like x 2
  8. Proxystar #Perception

    May I ask what artifacts each player was running?
  9. Proxystar #Perception

    [edit - actually I just realised when I did this I didn't even have my augments equipped so my might would otherwise have been 38106 and my power 65933 had those been on - had these been on it would probably have further trivialized it]

    I have my character by and large replicated as it currently is on live so my stats are pretty close - I do not know the exactly details of my partner other than the fact he was 258 so around max from the current DLC, with probably less stat points set though.
    CR263
    447 Stat Points - Superpowered
    Might/Power - 235
    Crit Attack Chance - 20
    Crit Attack Damage - 40
    Health - 130

    Artifacts - Scrap of the Soul Cloak - 160
    Solar Amplifier - 160
    Eye of Gemini - 160

    Primary Stats - Power - 59117
    Might - 35685

    No elite affinities active

    More direct feedback, I ran the duo to check how this felt in terms of feel between event and normal and I have to say with a character like this they felt virtually identical.

    The normal version Shazam maybe hit a tiny bit harder but was dead in virtually the same time, melted through his phases in seconds.

    Teekl posed no threat at all whatsoever and was melted in both instances before he could even undertake any meaningful mechanics. even his wool ball encasement mechanic didn't go off before we had destroyed him.

    The bosses were absolutely too easy considering I'm at the entrance level I'll be going into this DLC at, the duo should at least pose somewhat of a challenge for a little while, especially given normal is the hardest version of this instance.

    The NPC's (trash mobs) in this instance are so useless they may as well not even be present, they pose absolutely no threat at all whatsoever and are dead before you can blink.

    I don't think you'd need any new gear at all to finish this instance, it's actually disappointing because if we are going in on the gear we've got this duo isn't difficult enough. If the bosses are dead before the meaningful mechanics are going off you're not even experiencing half of what I believe this instance is really trying to put in front of the player.

    Sorry if this particular post of feedback was too instance specific I'm not sure how to answer your question without going into some instance specific detail in order to express the comparison between event and normal and whether the difficulty feels right or wrong.

    The bosses and NPC's certainly did not feel different enough at all.

    again even this feedback of mine has to be tempered against the fact I'm virtually as high as you can get currently and others won't be that strong going in, but I think it probably needs to be made a bit harder so as to not make it this easy, numerous people probably have similar stats going in to this DLC.
  10. E Clip Dedicated Player


    On one had yes, but on the other hand mechanics are part of the difficulty and they should have a place in this discussion. Same goes for artifacts. All of those contribute to the difficulty in one way or another and should not be overlooked.
    • Like x 3
  11. spack2k Steadfast Player

    I would exclude Tank shields here, no need to reduce the low amount of elite tanks we have in-game even further.
    • Like x 1
  12. DamageControlPS Active Player


    Thanks obsidian for in depth testing and developers please listen to people that do such great testing and few others here on this thread because these people test because they care and want this game to be improved

    I only yesterday made a thread concerning the difficulty of these raids and I am happy you made this thread so that people like Obsidiian can do their thing and give fair review on upcoming content.

    Let’s get this bread and get those elite raid back to the ELITE label.
  13. Brother Allen Loyal Player

    Tank (Me) - Gemini, Manacles, Refractor / Mystic, Manacles, Refractor
    DPS (Precision) - Gemini, Soul Cloak, Venom & 1 DPS was running Cog, Soul Cloak, Gemini
    DPS (Might) - Gemini, Soul Cloak, Solar Amp
    Healer - Gemini, Soul Cloak, and whatever 3rd Healer artifact Healers run =P.
    Troller - Soul Cloak, Rao, and Parasite

    I was being overly concerned at the time with running Refractor as the NPCs were around 16-18 CR higher than my gear at the time. Looking back I'm pretty sure I could have run Soul Cloak w/ Gemini for Dash Attack spam had I wanted or even Tetrahedron to boost up the might damage in the Raid. However, now that they have adjusted the content some I am unsure. Will find out tonight! :)
    • Like x 2
  14. Avair Administrator

    Thanks for all of the feedback and constructive conversation going on in this thread. We really appreciate it.

    Over the next couple of days we will be discussing and executing some fixes for difficulty based on this feedback.

    Here are a couple of things we know we will be looking at and talking about right off the bat (this is not the exhaustive list of everything, just something to get it started):
    • General balance between event, normal, and elite (things like HP, Damage, CR, etc)
    • Boss by boss balancing
    • Shield penetration for certain boss mechanics
    • Eye of Gemini/ Supercharges
    Also, here is a bit of info regarding some of the topics you have been discussing:
    • We do not have plans for or intend to add a 4th artifact slot. We aim to provide options and choices, so adding more slots is counter to that idea.
    • Artifacts have always been an avenue for us to allow player choice. From their inception, we leveraged them to give you options for changing your playstyles, min/ maxxing, theory crafting, etc. They will remain fulfilling this role. Because of this, they will always spur new meta game choices and that is great (or super great, depending on who you talk to). However, we do not intend on making every new round of artifacts more powerful than the last. that is power creep (while difficult to avoid, we try to avoid it as much as possible while still doing fun and new things).
    • Speaking of choices, artifacts should give you the option of playing your role in a different way or using powers you have in a different way. This will continue and some of the ideas in current artifacts will be carried through and built upon for future artifacts.
    • Artifatcs should not be required to play event or normal content, but we do encourage you use them in elite content.
    • Shields are a really strong game mechanic that is difficult to get "just right", especially because of the place they already hold/ have held in the meta of DCUO
    • We allow people to play elite content right out of the gate and then work backward on getting normal and event gear because we think people who play elite do not want to be forced to play normal first because it might be boring to them. However, if they want those rewards, they should have access to them. It is merely a convenience thing. See? If we were out to steal lunch money, we would not do stuff like this.
    Thanks again! I will still be reading this thread, but I'm going to go balance the crap out of some things.
    • Like x 13
  15. Proxystar #Perception

    Thanks for the post and clarity.

    I just wanted to comment on a few points

    shield penetration is a good idea as long as it doesn't become too much, I personally think it could do with being alternated at times to keep players on their toes.

    You appeared to be starting to do this in spindrift for example.

    I don't think a boss should always be able to penetrate shields it should just be that they might and we have to watch for it, but there is also an element of skill in timing shields and co-ordinating them as equally so as it is watching for a skull attack and blocking etc.

    We just have to find that right balance between making shields horribly useless and them cheesing up and trivialziing the content when people are able to have a shield built and cast every 20-30 seconds.

    The only thing I'd say about artifacts in elite content too as I believe we should encourage people to use them in elite content as well is to consider where you would expect an elite player to be in terms of artifacts. I think content should be based on what artifacts you would expect us to have going in for example, not what artifacts we can get with the new DLC.

    We have to have enough time to naturally level the artifacts up otherwise it's pushing people in to spending money rushing to get artifacts they need just to play elite. I'd encourage you to keep asking us elite players what artifacts we have at times and what levels they're at etc, unless you can already see that data for yourself, an ongoing health evolving discussion about the artifacts will definitely be good :)

    Also I understand completely why you let people play elite content right out of the gate and that's why difficulty needs to be tempered against a desire to do this because the moment you make it too difficult to do this you start to impede that very desire and suddenly change the dynamics within your progression model of how a player has to go about gearing up.

    Again, thanks for the post and clarity on further items, much appreciated, I think you'll have ruffled a few feathers with that no 4th artifact slot though :D :D but it's for the best for now.
  16. Proxystar #Perception

    Oh I just thought too, perhaps in terms of the damage output of EoG you could change it so that the damage scales based on the percentage of the supercharge used.

    Encourage people to build 100%ers instead of spam 25%ers with zero cool downs, just a thought :)

    Something like

    100% - 20% damage
    50% - 10% damage
    25% - 5% damage
    • Like x 2
  17. Elusian Crowd Control

    While being at it, please look into the event mode. I run once in a while the event raids on alts and experienced that equally geared DPS can sustain a lot longer than a Tank. Even tested myself with a lower geared char and went in the middle of the fight into tank stance with appropriate gear and got shredded faster as in DPS role with DPS gear.

    I suspect a bug on defense or anything a like in the scaling for lower geared characters since a character who could also run the normal or elite version of the content seems to be acting normal.

    Sadly, seen people quit over the course as its discouraging more common for newer players who think it might be them and feeling a disconnect with further consequences from their side.
    • Like x 1
  18. Rushsteel Active Player

    When Avair is talking about shield penetration. 90 percent sure it's like manta firstboss bomb mechanic. If that is the case, I am 100 percent down for it. We shouldn't be allowed to use shields to bypass elite mechanics. We should be doing the mechanics which is blocking or rolling away or lunging. These are all core mechanics of the game and should not be bypassed with a simple 1 2 3 4 sc shield rotation.
    • Like x 3
  19. Kid Multiverse Loyal Player

    I think you're onto something with this post.

    Can we get elite gear locked behind finishing the regular gear set? That feels like an elegant solution around the problem that people are having with difficulty slope over the course of a DLC's life & acquiring gear.
    • Like x 1
  20. Proxystar #Perception

    I disagree, not completely but I believe shielding is a tactic in and of itself, it's just it shouldn't be over used and shouldn't always be possible otherwise it just creates a cheese meta.
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