DPS Power Stats 2020?

Discussion in 'War Room (Powers, Artifacts, & Builds)' started by Dr.EvilZ, Jan 21, 2020.

  1. AV Loyal Player

    (Sorry for the massive edit on the last post, my late night math was derpy)

    Additional point: Doing that also means you won't have the SC available as often to stack your Neo with orbitals, unless people are holding them for you.
  2. ObsidianChill Community "Trusted"

    You severely underestimate BG and CoD or don't actually use them properly. BG is 30s cooldown and even any healer using a 25% super for EoG not even a nature bug you can effectively almost use it off cooldown and if you have a nature bug you can easily have it off cooldown to where you are getting easy 1+ million per SC where Neo is near worthless in any environment with support roles using EoG due to the 45s cooldown. Also you severely overestimate what 90% defense actually accounts for in terms of damage prevention if you think you are just going to breeze through an elite instance without having to worry about taking any risk.

    You don't even mention that fact that those 2 supercharges are also a counter to other dps, especially prec dps. Tell me Mr. Allen what the hell good is a neo venom to you as a dps when you have multiple prec dps doom spinning for 100k+ dmg every 10s on adds in the hallways, you're at a damage loss just trying to match them using your rotation+neo where with a BG/CoD and the inevitable orbitals you get to effectively erase 1mil damage that those other dps can put out because you already did it in a burst.
    • Like x 1
  3. Dolkka New Player

    I'm interested so I'm just going to /popcorn and wait for these responses.

    Maybe I'll throw in my two cents towards the end.
    • Like x 2
  4. AV Loyal Player

    Much of that is simply not true, or there are very simple ways to avoid the issues you're describing, and much of the remainder is hyperbolic. I'm also not sure why you're conflating use vs bosses with unfruitful DPS chasing behaviour on intra-boss raid adds, which all context made clear was not the case at hand.

    With all due respect, every time someone asks us for DPS help in game, they invariably cite similar pulp, invariably from some YouTube video from invariably the same author. We then have to effectively "deprogram" them and they start performing at much closer to their max potential. Similarly, when we see people dramatically underperforming, they cite similar sources to defend their performance. It would be beneficial if they had not received such poor information. DPS, in any game, is nuanced and ego often gets in the way of improvement. Hyperbole, non-combat evaluation, and assumption are the enemies of a good DPS. Your post is not constructive.
    • Like x 4
  5. ObsidianChill Community "Trusted"

    They learn to go from watching youtube to the dcuo forums to seek help where they find an individual who posts not a single piece of video footage of testing or parsing nor any actual raid footage to validate the individuals claims but yet insists upon their encyclopedic knowledge of the best and most optimal rotations for each and every powerset and further insists upon their claims to further validate themselves. It's amazing how you can equally say my response is non-constructive when your reply to me has offered little to no substance except to highlight a further example of hyperbole.
  6. GoDeacs Well-Known Player

    There're numerous ways to run a rotation for most power sets while maintaining your damage, keeping sidekick while still running 2 supercharges. Neo is good but it's not something I'd use in the hallways or on adds. Most powers can easily find a way to adjust their load outs with movement sc's, artifacts etc. You can easily remove a power and not the sidekick to accommodate for an additional supercharge netting you more damage overall. Most powers don't take a hit significant if any hit on their parses by removing a power but however get 5-10mil or extra damage from their second supercharge that can be used off cool down. Earth for example can run upheaval, pebble blast and either heat vision or sandblast. So that's 3 powers, then you put crystal, neo and entomb and start spamming entombs with neo on single fights. Fire can just rotate heat vision with absorb heat and maybe throw in overheat if running strategist card then you have a slot for sidekick and 2 supercharges. If you could just rotate heat vision and absorb heat in a fight why would you use something else nothing even compares on pure single target.

    Muni will most likely also rotate 3x powers and can parse insanely high too with transformation/strat cards running something like heat vision, chain gun and small package while keeping big gun with neo in the loadout but big gun should suffice. I can go on with most power sets and then go into loadouts using movement iconics in the loadouts just to prove the fact that most are capable running 2 supercharges without losing much, if any damage with sidekick and 2x supers
  7. AV Loyal Player

    Oh yeah of course not. Would be a total waste most of the time too as they're usually dead in 5-6 seconds or less. If we're talking adds in hallways, it's totally reasonable to have 2x cheap SCs if they want and every power has the room without sacrificing anything. I personally don't feel the need but there's nothing wrong with it.

    If we ever are in a group that's spamming enough circles that we have a strong sc surplus, it's reasonable for us to adjust loadout. Not great to mainline that though unless pre-communicated. Can also break 16min PCe runs without that sort of thing and the increased burst damage comes at a cost.

    Just a heads up but the Fire play you describe is a good ways off from max potential. Similarly, there's only two powers with max performance rotations requiring only three abilities in tray, then two where it's a reasonable alternative (but still notable DPS loss). The others cut their output by >10-25%
  8. GoDeacs Well-Known Player

    Well I mean most fight especially elite ones are mostly tank and spank with 2 healers rotating 2500sc or even a solo bug healer going in and out of bug form. Pretty much everything right now is a tank&spank except maybe pce first boss. I'm not a fire expert but last I checked rotating anything other than hv&ah and one of the 2: either spontaneous combustion or overheat in fights where u can just rotate hv and ah without being interrupted or having to move is a damage loss. On test serv, fire seemed really strong running trans card, strat card and solar and just rotating hv&ah with overheat. Now granted, you can't just rely on the hv and ah all the time but in a lot of instances you can. If you do pce final boss for example 1 boss at a time why would you rotate anything else other than heat vision and absorb heat with a filler in between be it sc or overheat. My point of view could be a bit different from yours since I did use strat&trans cards+solar on test server to test fire.

    No other artifact combo was better than running these 3 especially if you are able to just rotate hv+ah in at least 50% of the instances. I know what you are thinking, you can't pull it off but it's very doable when the bosses are stationary on a tank and you have 2 healers on you popping gemini. In most fights you can pull it off as long as bosses don't jump anywhere
    Just rotating hv+ah on test at like 54 or 55k might running trans&strat&solar parses closer to 35k on single target. It's not prec numbers but fairly close I'd say... Might scales higher than prec especially when buffed in raids and having affinity mods, proper generator mods, elite gear etc. Rotating anything other than hv+ah and overheat on single target using those particular artifacts was just a straight up damage loss no matter what I did. I mean if an instance permits to keep on rotating those 3 powers while maximizing your damage why not just use those 3 powers? lol You can then put neo+calamity&fb to rotate in with ah+hv to maximize your already insane damage from channeled and a consistent flow of sc from the healers to keep on using neo and fireball or even calamity off cool down.
    Tbh I'd be very very surprised if fire might would put out less dmg then any prec other than electric&water in pce final boss where you'd consistently rotate hv+ah back to back while spamming supercharges.
  9. AV Loyal Player

    Respectfully, I am a fire expert. You can do what you're describing but every combination of those powers is minimum 10% less DPS output than current BiS rotation, putting it behind even the backup rotations for safety (fights where Absorb Heat bug will get you killed) or the mobility build (in the few fights where that approach outperforms BiS). A lot of people do what you're describing and while it's "above average" it's quite bad relative to max DPS potential.

    There has been a lot of disinformation about artifacts this cycle... Guessing partially from bad testing habits from back in the day with most people still using misleading 10s parses at face value combined with misinformation getting amplified somehow. Seriously though, 10s parses are horrid and the only reason it was suggested way back was because we all ran out of power too fast, which isn't the case anymore and only special cases for Mental/Gadgets call for its use (and those cases really ought to just have a Troll friend help test regardless). 10s parses make anything bursty in the slightest seem better than it is to the point it can mask pretty large disparities between rotations and artis.

    Trans and Strat are not BiS for Might in general and in the situations where they shine the most, the difference is marginal to the point I'd think long and hard about a 3.6mil Nth investment outside of a double Nth weekend, eg. I spent probably 10-20hours doing nothing but testing the new arts pre and post release, and still retest them when people mention stuff like this to do a sanity check, and the results haven't changed. They're "okay" for pure DPS but they're not the best. I feel bad for Might players who bought into the hype and dumped previously leveled artifacts into them for pure DPS purposes. Any combination of Strat, Trans, or both replacing any 1 or 2 of the 3 of actual BiS ST artifacts results in an overall ~3-10% ST DPS loss for any Might player at as low as ~270SP and on live, with max SP, the difference is worse.

    The misinformation about Strat surprises me especially as it doesn't even really outperform the previous round of benchwarmer artifacts in that in ST it actually loses out to even a 200 Scepter, and can only marginally beat it if we disregard all of Scepters CD reduction and bonus damage mechanics besides the vanilla baby-beams; it's like a gutted version of Scepter and we weren't using Scepter before so huh.meme

    Of note, Trans loses to Tetra except in specific circumstances. If there's no DPS (or max-health fire tank) in the group using a Tetra, it's well behind in output. If a Troll is using one (for... reasons?) Trans is close but still generally loses out marginally (there's really not much of a difference in this case). If another DPS is using Tetra, Trans will perform slightly better. So it's marginally worth it if and only if you know there'll be a DPS in the group running Tetra... with the caveat that since everyone buys into this concept that adding a combined 48000 raw Might to the group (before % buffs apply, that is, so in practice it's much more) is bad because they're afraid they may lose on the scoreboard (they shouldn't be), then no one will have a Tetra and everyone's damage will be worse. Any Might DPS skilled/knowledgeable enough to be running Tetra has little to fear from other DPS and has, in addition to their own performance, contributed far more to the group. It's also important that people understand that in Metal Pt 2 we all have a 4% higher crit rate than usual, giving Trans a slight bump in that content.

    By the way if some of that seems salty it's not directed at you personally. The bizarre Metal pt 2 arti hype train is just weird. That said, they're not bad artifacts by any means and in league runs it's totally justifiable for just the highest SP Might DPS to run Tetra while the other Might DPS run trans.

    PS. Do people still kill PCe bosses 1 at a time? =/
  10. GoDeacs Well-Known Player

    Don't know if people still kill one at a time but it's just one of the examples. I did test dkc and pretty much all artifacts including tetra, solar, stone etc. Still, transformation cars&strategist card just parses higher than anything else. It's a fact. Typically I wouldn't run tetra personally and a troll would most likely to run it, if a troll doesn't have it, oh well... I guess nobody is running it despite them having it lol. I guess nobody really wants to buff up a group but if they did, everyone else in a group would get a buff. People don't want others to get a buff hence they run something else
  11. AV Loyal Player

    "Able to generate a higher parse" =/= "parses higher" if the average of all parses, or better yet the average of multiple 5-10min long End of Combat parses is lower, which is a big part of why 10s parses are highly misleading and unless you're doing a colossal amount of testing and manually averaging thousands of 10s parses your results will never be close to accurate. It's a "fact" that if you do 10s parses of HV>Plague+Combo>Defile it will appear to massively out-DPS the real BiS rotation but if you go end of combat and run for any actually reasonable amount of time it's quickly obvious that it's worse. It makes anything that adds any kind of damage spike to a rotation look better than it is.

    I do hours and hours of tests averaging the results from dozens to hundreds of sustained 2.5-10min parses and can assure you your claim is far from a "fact." As indicated, Trans Strat aren't bad Might artifacts but unless someone is putting in the time and testing properly, they're gonna fall victim to confirmation bias when the difference between options is this close. Anything that gives bursts of damage, like Strat/Trans, cannot be accurately evaluated with 10s parses and any differences of ~5% cannot be evaluated in any short amount of time no matter how stable and consistent a rotation is, eg a very slight change to BiS fire rotation took 10hrs to diagnose for a gain where, even when I had all the data in, the clear winner was neither the one I expected nor the one that looked like the winner at a glance. Strat/Trans is both bursty and results in a wide spread, so it's a nightmare for ad hoc evaluation, especially if being combined with a loadout that already has spike damage in it. The greater the difference between the valleys and peaks of a rotation, the more likely it is that that rotation will be misdiagnosed.

    In the case of Strat and Trans, this is all also with the following caveats:

    - As previously mentioned, in Pt 2 our Crit rate is 4% higher than usual which gives these a slight boost that won't exist for other content
    - The worse someone's prior DPS is, the better that combination will seem because strat's output is generally unaffected by their performance
  12. Top Stooge New Player

    OP, just ask for parses rather than loadouts first. Parses on targets AND in content. Also, don't trust anyone who can't point you to the source of these (parses). Have a goal, follow it, and EXPECT THINGS TO CHANGE due to meta builds crawling out more and more. Last thing : find people who support TESTING things rather than wasting money or time on what some random swears by...
    • Like x 2
  13. AD Leo Well-Known Player

    To the OP, that's a loaded question due to the Artifacts and the different combinations of those Artifacts greatly affect the potential of most powersets. Depending on how much money or time to grind nth metal for possibly changing Artifacts I'd choose the power you like and go from there. If your goal is to be considered a top DPS..... honestly that endeavor could be quite costly. If your objective is to be able to hold your own just choose the powerset you like and go from there. Also take into consideration the support role of said powerset as there are some Artifacts that work for both roles minimize the need to build 6 Artifacts where 2 could be dual role and 2 others would be role specific. For Example as Electric you could use Stone on both, Scrap for both and then use Demons Fang on the healer and Solar on the DPS. That's 4 Artifacts instead of 6. Mind you this might no be the "Meta" for either role but you can easily handle each job. Those are what I've used prior and did elite content in both roles. Like I said it's a loaded question, not like the AM days it's far more in-depth sort to speak. Just my take.
  14. iAmMeMoRiezZ New Player

    Might Tier 1-5: (Considering Ads and Boss damage)
    Reg Raids
    1. Rage, Earth, Nature
    2. Gadgets, Celestial, Electric
    3. HL, Atomic, Fire, Quantum, Munitions
    4. Sorc, Mental
    5. Ice, Water
    Elite Raids
    1. Nature
    2. Gadgets, Celestial, HL, Electric
    3. Quantum, Fire, Munitions, Rage, Earth, Atomic
    4. Mental,Water
    5. Sorc, Ice

    Just my opinion based off tests and runs.
  15. Crjom New Player

    Celestial always seems to be ranked kind of high. I must be doing it wrong lol. Still love the power and have lots of fun with it so in that aspect I am totally winning.
  16. Mister_Raccoon Well-Known Player

    lmao tfw the truth = rhetoric.
    I thought he was generous when he said sub-140 artifacts. In reality the question is kinda moot until 160.
    But I suppose if we have to read between lines that don't exist the answer is simple:

    With proper artifacts: Anything.
    Without proper artifacts: It doesn't matter.
  17. FullMetalTitan Committed Player

    Yo I’m not going to lie this made me laugh out loud in class and I got in trouble. Thanks!
    • Like x 1
  18. Pale Rage Dedicated Player

    I find it funny that people put water so low on the dps' chart. I've got a water character, that constantly is in top 3dps.
  19. Mazahs Loyal Player

    Most of the time you are talking about maximum output potential.

    I can pretty safely say if you have (5) dps's Rage, Earth, Gadgets, HL & Water (all with all things being equal) you are not going to be top 3. You gonna be a distant 5th.

    Not bashing you, or your power...but if each of these is maxed artifacts and doing their thing top level it's lower tier - mid tier