Do No Harm

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by Kid Multiverse, Nov 26, 2018.

  1. Knarlydude Loyal Player

    Gotta love dem PS kids. Don't put up with that nonsense.
    You should have kicked that guy if you had a chance. Then sent him a sweet PM with hugs & kisses ;)right when you kicked him.
    • Like x 2
  2. Knarlydude Loyal Player

    Additionally, after thinking for a second.
    I have two daughters myself and I taught them not to take this kind of abuse. I would have asked either one of them if they would like to start the kick vote. That being said, my oldest would have started a kick vote without being asked. xD
    • Like x 3
  3. Brit Loyal Player

    Seems like most of your complaints revolve around the /Kick function. Most of these experiences could be resolved by building your group yourself. I'm not even talking about steady League groups; if you actually use LFG and build a group from scratch, rarely is anyone going to kick someone out in favor of some random.

    That being said, I kick for a whole lot of different reasons, and none of them ever involve the scoreboard.

    I kick when a player goes afk without asking. Hey, if you've got to use the washroom, I understand. But if you just AFK in the middle of a boss fight without saying a word, we carry you through to the win, and then we're two rooms ahead through the Crown of Thorns before anybody points out that you're still standing in King Shark's room and your name has toggled to (Away), you're getting the boot. If I'm 7 manning a raid, or 3 manning an alert, then dad-gum, I'm going to do it without letting someone AFK their way to the marks. Heck, I'm the type of guy who will stop fighting in Stabilizers when I get an AFK partner and drop from the instance so that they are left alone. AFK players hurt everybody with their selfishness, and I won't reward them for that.

    Aside from that, I'll kick for poor sportsmanship. I'll kick for excessive profanity in voicechat. I'll kick if somebody just leaves their voicechat on perma-broadcast, and is subjecting me to listening to them chewing in my ear while they refuse to enable their push-to-talk. Basically, if something reaches a point where I no longer want to be in a group with this person, I'll propose a kick, because maybe the majority of people agree with me. That's the beauty of a kick; it only happens if the majority agrees.

    If the majority does not agree with me, and they don't mind listening to somebody using a bunch of racial slurs, then I follow the failed Kick attempt with a vote Excuse for myself. Because I only start a kick when there is 0% chance I am going to continue working under these conditions, and when a /tell attempt to resolve the problem didn't help. And if the group tries to play Healer-Held-Hostage, where they won't excuse me, then I just fly back to the portal at the beginning and accept the 45 second Deserter flag.

    Your tolerance might be a whole lot different from mine, but I like to believe the Kick feature is democracy in action. It can't pass unless the majority of people agree, and in that case, who was really the jerk? The people who made a problem leave, or the person who was causing a problem for 4+ other people?

    And there are times when it is a case of 'nothing personal'. I've been kicked before because the group had doubles on healers or controllers and I happened to be the lower of the two. I was ordered to change roles, which I did not have the gear nor the interest in doing. I told the group, as politely as I could, that I did not queue as DPS and was not prepared to play that role. Sometimes they kick me. I'm totally cool with it. Best of luck to them; no hard feelings. Thank you for not forcing me to take the deserter flag, that way I can re-queue myself and join a different group where I am needed in the role I wish to play.

    Getting kicked isn't like getting dumped by your girlfriend where it needs to be personal. Getting kicked is more like getting laid off at work, where it's business. And sure, there are things I could do differently that would reduce incidents of this happening, because ultimately people don't get kicked for no reason; it's almost always the result of choices that they make.

    "Kicking the lowest DPS" just doesn't happen, at least not that I've ever witnessed, unless there is an actual problem. Because a mediocre DPS is still contributing more than an empty spot where you have to wait for a replacement. You know when people kick the lowest DPS? When the group cannot be successful in it's current state. Maybe they are a clueless DPS that is lagging behind the healer, because they do not know their combos and powers. Maybe the fact they are contributing almost nothing is holding the group back. Or maybe, they might be doing just fine, but the fight simply requires something different. We're in Throne of the Dead and we need 2 Tanks. There isn't a second Tank. Nobody volunteers to leave. Well, the group can either keep on failing until somebody quits, or somebody is getting kicked to make room for what is needed. The same can happen in Alerts when that Healer buff just isn't enough to keep the 4 DPS team alive through the boss fight. You might be a good DPS, but unless you also have some Healer gear, when a Healer's what they need, somebody has to leave to make room. There is a lengthy cooldown on the vote-kick option; you can't just kick everybody willy-nilly. So if the entire team collectively agrees that somebody needs to go for the good of the team, then it needs to happen.

    And every once in a while, that majority makes a mistake. I ran an AoJ Alert where 3 DPS (all close to the minimums level) were standing in the middle of the grenadiers. I couldn't heal them through that. On attempt 2, I politely suggested they come over to the conveyer to reduce that incoming damage. They refused. We wiped again. And again. And again. Then they decided the problem was my healing and they kicked me. And you know what? That just cemented what I already knew; they were idiots who had no idea what they were doing and I was better off without them. No hurt feelings; I was saved a dozen more wipes from their stupidity.

    Just yesterday I tried to Kick an AFK, and I had a party member complain. The AFK was a member of his League. The guy had been AFK was still standing in the first room of Silent School and we were just reaching the Thorn Golem. He felt it was unreasonable that I didn't want to just 3 man the whole alert so his friend could be AFK. I felt it was unreasonable that his friend expected us to 3-man the whole Alert, and went AFK without notice and without returning in a reasonable time. The last party member agreed with me and voted Yes, so the vote succeeded. Then the complaining player dropped group as well to accompany his friend.

    Who knows. Maybe his friend told him in League chat, and just neglected to mention it in group. Maybe they were in Ventrillo together and he knew his friend was arguing with his wife, or taking care of his kids. Maybe he felt his friend had a really good excuse, which the rest of us weren't privy to. We were the majority, and we voted against people being AFK. And so he left to follow his friend and join a different run, hopefully when his friend would no longer be AFK. Good for them. No hard feelings. Their replacements finished the Alert just fine.

    And that remains the option as well. If you really do feel that the group is "being mean" and kicking people "for no reason", you can leave. You have every right to walk out, based on your beliefs and who you do or do not want to group with. Because if you honestly believe the majority of members of your group are jerks, then why would you want to play with them anyways.
    • Like x 3
  4. muellersascha Well-Known Player

    You know Proxy, there have been times when I have agreed with you and times when I have vehemently disagreed with your comments. To call my experience fake, well is pretty much the lowest and shows what kind of person you really are. You are a big part of the reason people quit the forums because of your constant demeaning manner toward other's experiences and heartfelt comments. Time and again I have seen you rip people apart for posting their thoughts based on your "opinion". I'm sure you will also have some lousy thing to say about this which has become expected from you, but I at least I have never called you a liar. Same goes to anyone who liked your post. This story was 100% true and I gain absolutely nothing from making it up.
    • Like x 2
  5. WilderMidnight Devoted Player

    once upon a time we didn't have kick timers and vote cool downs.

    stuff like that used to happen ll the time: kicking players at last boss to bring in leaguemates. there was a time when you'd queue up for an alert and before you finish loading into the instance youd see the kick screen. When we had longer cool down periods to re enter instances players used to grief people by inviting them into instances after it was finished just to give them deserter status.

    what surprises me is anyone playing this game for more than a few months is surprised over community behavior. if anything things used to be much much worse but then i also don't get involved with leagues and their dramas and i run without a mike 99% of the time. much more peaceful and quiet after a long stressful day of work.

    our community is foul. just look at this thread. its usually the ones who claim to never resort to such tactics who resort to such tactics.
    • Like x 1
  6. Gulrick TheWanderer Well-Known Player

    I just wanted to say I'm only a jerk and/or kick players that deserve it. Unfortunately that seems to be more than 90% of the population.

    People like the theory of being able to take criticism, though I've never seen it used in practice. There are too many people who get overly sensitive when they get called out or kicked. For those who get easily upset, don't take it personally. Because it's not personal, it's professional. For example I thought it would be a good idea to run CrownE with a group of villains on my hero. I'll never make that mistake again. The tank who was fire died on shark about 5 or 6 times. I was healing. He was blaming me. I said I can't heal stupid. He was getting hit for 30-50k a hit. Like does he not know how to counter? I told him maybe it's time to switch powers. The response I recieved from the group was shocking. The response I got if you heard it, you'd think I'd insulted his mom or something. The whole group was acting as if I shot him. They were swearing at me, making fun of my shoes, saying I like pepsi. All lies coke all they way with my rye. What is up with all these fire fanboys these days? Fire tanking is trash in elite. Look I get it okay. You've been fire since year one. But we're in year 7, approaching year 8 soon. Fire isn't what it used to be. If you want to tank elite and be useful pick either rage, ice or earth. Then you'll be useful and won't get kicked. It's a win win.

    The part I found so funny is after we beat the second part, the tree puzzle. They were like "good job guys, another flawless run". I looked at the scorecard it took over an hour, and there is still the other boss. Wtf are they talking about? A flawless run would be completion with 0 deaths. Man what low standards. Why can't I kick all seven people!? Why do people suck so bad!? It takes my league and I an hour to complete both elite raids. Even when I was trying to give the fire tank good advice his friend kept telling me to F off. Saying some nonsense about the reason he doesn't like heroes. What reason is that? That we complete multiple runs in the same time it takes them to form a group? Well feels good to be a hero.

    Lastly whats this crap about our community being so toxic? As compared to what? Call of duty? Having 8-16 year olds swering there heads off. Overwatch same thing. league of legends yup. Every competitive multiplayer ever. Even monopoly gets toxic sometimes. Have you ever been locked in an 8 hour Monopoly game? Friendships are lost over that bs game.
    • Like x 3
  7. Wade Spalding Loyal Player

    Well, that actually makes you an elitist jerk :D JK
  8. Gulrick TheWanderer Well-Known Player

    Cool! Jerks like me beat raids in a timely manner. Nice guys finish last. Actually nice guys don't finish period. Ask my last league lol.
  9. Iconic Simulation Loyal Player

    Usually us vills are on our game. Sounds like you got in on a bum group. My league usually finishes each elite raid in about 26-35 mins give or take. That group sounds like a few people tryin to scrape a bit of renown with whatever they got. Kinda sad to say the least.
    • Like x 1
  10. Knarlydude Loyal Player

    • Like x 2
  11. Proxystar #Perception

    I informed the other people that your story was fake because it is, the way you originally described it isn't mathematically possible unless like I said everyone started voting for each other or there's details being omitted, of which cannot be verified now as discussed in numerous subsequent posts.

    I'm not calling you a liar because I have some sort of "personal issue" with you either, my post was made to inform others of the errant details within your claim.

    I did this because quite frankly whipping up negative hysteria, that isn't even factually correct, to give the impression the community is toxic doesn't serve this community well at all; in fact probably does more to drive players away from the game than you claim I drive away from the forums simply through conversing on the forums, which I find highly laughable by the way.

    This isn't my opinion either, this is criticism of your story based on the mathematical facts surrounding the story you told and the way you told it. You're the one that posted it, you shouldn't get incensed because someone fact checked it and found it 'wanting'.
    • Like x 1
  12. Proxystar #Perception

    100% agree with you, far to much sensitivty over everything.

    People get called out for bad play and wasting other peoples time and suddenly when you call them out for it, like you say, it's as if you've insulted their very existence.

    You're right it's not personal and if it did become personal I'd hazard a guess it's probably have breached terms and conditions and would become reportable.

    Although what you said "can't heal stupid" could probably have been said in a different manner, it is a common phrase used within the game and isn't used to cause personal offense, it's meant to express despair at the fact the behaviour and game play exhibited by the player in question is "stupid". It isn't actually meant to imply the "player is intellectually stupid".

    This is just people being over sensitive and I'd hazard a guess, they'd have reacted in the manner they did irrespective of what you said Gulrick, because they wanted to blame you for their poor play and you called out the truth.

    This is also why people get kicked, because they're bad and they're seemingly oblivious to the fact, eventually other people in the group just reach their limit and want to get it done.

    Eventually when you waste enough of another persons time (which arguably is toxic behavior in and of itself, but is being disregarded here) people are going to reach their limit and they're going to start saying and doing things like kicking people.
    • Like x 1
  13. Knarlydude Loyal Player

    Again, Its about acting like grown responsible adults and teaching kids young & old to act the same. It's called sportsmanship and not being too sensitive.
    • Like x 3
  14. Highplains Sailor Well-Known Player

    That is an issue many people may not consider a lot. For those of us who have lots of time to play, having our time wasted can be an annoyance. But not everyone has lots of times to play. They have jobs, families, house/yard work, all that pesky 'real life' stuff. So when they can play they want to make the most of their time. If they spend a lot of time wiping repeatedly in an raid because some people refuse to make adjustments, take advice, etc, they get really frustrated because their limited play time is being wasted. When people get frustrated and angry, things can go south pretty fast.

    It's just something to consider.
    • Like x 2
  15. Proxystar #Perception

    Absolutely! Something being completely disregarded by 'candy floss crusaders' who think everything should be a positive experience.

    On the opposite side of the coin you shouldn't waste other peoples time.

    It is not alright to go into an instance and waste 7 peoples time when you know you can't complete the content, if you know you are potentially going to struggle then have a back up, take someone with you who can switch in to your role and complete the content for you; basically a safety net, very good when you're learning; this would highly likely avoid a kicking experience.

    If you're going to experiment with something be prepared to change back to something more sound in terms of performance, don't stick with your experiment when its obviously failing.

    It is not alright to excuse yourself or rage quit an instance, especially one part through, leaving all other people to find a replacement to finish it off, this is disruptive, it is highly disrespectful towards the other players, if you want to leave, finding and having the replacement ready to come in and finish should be your responsibility, not the responsibility of the group you're leaving behind.

    You shouldn't go in to an instance in the first place if this is the potential outcome.

    Just some thoughts as well.
  16. Wade Spalding Loyal Player

    These folks know/should know their social surroundings do not fit well with these type of games and thus should NOT just queue up but build their group or form a league with likewise problematic players. Expecting anything specific from blindly using the Q is basically starting to waste your time yourself. The Q will deal you anything from a Blasty McKillemall totally overgeared wasting mobs while just passing through to 8 year old kids having "hijacked" daddy's/mommy's/older sibling's account.

    Starting to play a game - board game, video game, card game whatever - is in our social structure the basic aknowledgement of having "time to waste" at hand. Going into a game while NOT having time to waste may indicate a mental issue, that simple. If you just have ten minutes between mowing the lawn and picking the kids up in school and you try to get stuff done in DCUO with that ten minutes, the basic fail is not with the players who just run around there trying to have fun. It's simple math - endgame players are a minority in DCUO, and good endgame players are a minority within that minority, and good endgame players blindly queueing are again a minority in the precious minority. Now anyone queueing up blindly is taking chances with very bad odds, and the reaction some of those "my precious time" folks show here is basuically like buying a lottery ticket and then blame the guy at the door of the shop who also bought a losing ticket for not having won. Those folks should learn to project what is likely gonna happen following their own action - and resist from taking these actions if they don't like the predictable outcome.

    It's not rocket science that blindly queueing will not deal you 7 like-minded players. You queue blind - deal with what you get. You build your own group - you're also to blame if it doesn't work out since you build the group ;) Your real life is pesky - you should be banned from playing video games since it is highly likely that you take your frustration into the game and ruin the day of other people who have a good real life with your bad attitude.

    The devs are actually the only people you as a customer are rightfully in a position to expect "stuff" from. But hey, guess what: very often the same people who get angry over every extra minute an instance lasts due to someone not having the "right" setup are the same people who go very easy on the devs when they come up with another fail, fresh bugs, long downtime etc. Because the devs just work here, just get paid here with the money customers leave in the game and thus can't be hassled to deliver professional additions or fixes. But don't you dare to be a fellow customer going around for fun and showing off all the precious time you have to waste.... ;)
  17. Highplains Sailor Well-Known Player

    In that case of having just ten minutes to play, yes, its unreasonable to expect to get a lot of stuff done. I'm talking about someone who may have a few hours once every few days. If I only have a half hour or so to play at a given time I'm going to use that to do a few dailies by myself. I personally wouldn't Q up for anything that I think could possibly take a lot of time. And yes, if your life doesn't give you a whole lot of free time at any given moment, MMO's aren't really the best option for entertainment.

    I'm not saying that because a person doesn't have a lot of play time and they get frustrated they are justified in going off on someone. I was just stating that it is a reason it happens.
    • Like x 1
  18. Kid Multiverse Loyal Player

    Sucks, man. I'm sorry you had to deal with that. On the other hand, maybe it's helpful to have a clearer understanding of some people's PoVs. When a thread meant to be a call for kindness in the community and being decent toward one another gets used as an opportunity to call people liars, label them with corny nicknames and gin up bizarre conspiracy theories about some secret plot to spread misinformation, well, that kind of tells you everything you need to know.

    Ultimately, the old adage "misery loves company" is useful to remember here-- folks who are unrelentingly negative want to bring that to other people because for them, that's normal. The best we can do is to show those folks compassion and patience and resist getting caught up in the morass of their dark world views, and, on topic, resist getting caught up in their in-game negativity.
    • Like x 2
  19. Proxystar #Perception

    Nah, you lost me when you started acting like peoples expectation to have their time respected amounts to a "mental issue".

    Yes there is something to be said about "appreciating the time you have and deciding what you might be able to get done in said time" but there are also factors that lead a person to draw a conclusion based on the facts put before them as to whether something can be done in that time.

    There is nothing wrong with a person valuing their leisure time, in fact many people value their leisure time more than they value any other time and when you play certain aspects of this video game, especially the likes of "elite" content you're expecting efficiency not incompetence.

    Let's take the first scenario from the opening post as it's a rather telling example of how a persons time could potentially be wasted.

    ZooE is a piece of elite content, so it should be expected the people forming a run in that content know what they're doing, in addition to that point that piece of elite content came out in or around September 2017, so it's over 12 months old. Many people have had numerous opportunities to run the content and know what they're doing.

    The player in question, a tank according to the post, was CR255, because upon leaving the instance a player is surprised that he made it to 255. Kid Multiverse asserts that it is an attempt to humiliate him, perhaps it wasn't an attempt to humilate the other player, but simply an assertion of disbelief that a player whose CR is 255 is incapable of completing elite content that pre-dates the current content he's running by 12 months?

    A player who is CR255 should be easily capable of running this content, so would the group not go in to a piece of 12 month old content assuming safely that the tank would be capable of completing said content with ease?

    You see this is the exact type of "half truths" and "alternative toxic behavior" I'm outlining here.

    This tank excused himself at the last boss, not the first boss, but the last boss.. leaving the rest of the group to scramble around for an alternative tank... after a wipe? I have to ask, was it just one wipe? who excuses themselves after just one wipe? and irrespective of how many wipes it even really was, is that really acceptable behavior to just abandon a raid party at last boss? Why isn't that type of toxicity being called out?

    This is why these threads are ridiculous, they're always half the stories and often tend to gloss over details that lead up to a certain raid breaking down, people being kicked or things being said.
    • Like x 1
  20. Protecktor MKV Committed Player

    I can definitely see that point. It is rough when you only have so much time and things don't go well. I always try and be patient but have had times where I've had to take myself off mic and regroup or even just excuse myself from the instance. It can be super frustrating so I get it.
    • Like x 1