Devs, We Have to Help New Players

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by Light Bender92, May 29, 2020.

  1. Light Bender92 Well-Known Player

    I’ve always felt that new players are often thrown into the game after level 30 with very little idea of how end game play actually works. Reason I’m bringing this up is because I just ran VMF with some guy, let’s call him Al, and Al admittedly said that he doesn’t really know what he’s doing. I didn’t mind, I’ve never considered myself the elitist type. The alert took way longer than usual since he was our dps but I could tell he genuinely was trying. After the alert I gave him some tips about how to properly spec, the role SP plays and feats in general, and the importance of leveling your augments and about how high they should for his cr.

    And then it hit me, how did this guy, even with all the tutorial prompts and messages, not know wth he was doing at 300 cr? Sure I was able to help him but a lot of people wouldn’t care to help and most people (understandably) probably wouldn’t have the time to sit there and teach a stranger, let alone every single person they come across that is lackluster at the game.

    My whole point for making this post is that there needs to be some system in place that guides people through the ENTIRE leveling process. Not just gear. Have SP and augment rank suggestions for each piece of content. Make apparent what the minimum augment rank should be for a specific piece of content, what the suggested is, and what the max was at the time so people can level them up accordingly. (I’m not saying lock people out based on augments, I’m saying give them an idea of where they should be). Do something similar with SP, it could even be something as easy as “your sp should be at least the same as your cr” or something like that. Create a feat tracker so newer guys can more easily and effectively get more SP

    Make more consistent prompts for progression. I leveled a new toon recently and got the first augment prompt at level 20, TWENTY, and then they are never brought up again. If you’re hitting circle too fast you can easily miss it (something I did a couple times) and even if you do read it, augments aren’t really a must until end game content. Am I supposed remember one random prompt about it from when I was level 20, when my entire leveling process they pretty much didn’t matter?

    TL;DR: there needs to be a system in place to help guide players more effectively. What that may look like? Idk, but you guys usually come up with pretty good ideas/implementations so I trust you could figure it out.

    (And yes before anyone says it, I’m aware that new players can simply come to the forums or search up stuff on YouTube but for one many players don’t even know about the forums, and secondly players shouldn’t have to leave the game to get detailed information on progression. It’s not like I’m asking the devs to teach everyone the best rotations for everything and how to spec so that you play your role maximally effectively. What I’m asking for are things that I feel all new players should learn from the game itself (I’m detail and relentlessly, not just one off prompts), and it would help to alleviate the influx of mediocre players at the top recently.)
    • Like x 7
  2. HurricaneErrl Dedicated Player

    Seems like all my posts lately have been about the same thing, but it all comes down to the CR skips. These toons are skipping so close to endgame that when they get there they dont have anywhere near the amount of SPx arts, or augments. If they are going to continue to sell these skips they need to include some healthy artifact and augment caches at the very least. Also a bump in the SP given should be seriously considered. The skip toons and farming alts have almost become a plague
    • Like x 3
  3. Jacob Dragonhunter Steadfast Player

    I hate to be that one guy, but why are there still threads that insist "The game must teach new players this thing, and that thing, so they'll be less annoying." when that's not going to happen?

    Look, I love the idea of learning through a game tutorial and repetition as much as the next guy; but let's break the ice with these threads for a moment shall we?

    The problem is a result of the CR skips sure, but it's not exactly just on the CR skip. The CR skip for what it's worth has become something of a scapegoat, and the reality is when threads like these pop up: It's not just the CR skip at fault, but it's also us the players that are at fault.

    And I feel like a lot of this isn't just the CR skip: But it's the fact that these newer players can't even be allowed to go through trial and error without one of these threads coming up to shame or complain about them..

    Sheesh, cut these guys some slack. We were all new at one point ourselves, the difference was because we were all around the same combat rating with same skill points and same content, there was more of a welcome to the trial and error aspect of the early DCUO. And yes, a lot of people learned their crafts through either youtubing, forums, or spending countless hours on the sparring targets: The game never really teached us that much back then, it probably won't do it now.

    But now it's :What? You mean to tell me your CR 300 and your new to the game? :O

    CR should never be the main indicator of how good a player is to begin with, but that's how things have shaped around here.

    CR and a lack of SP helps, but a new player is still going to be a new player. And new players need exposure to trial and error that they just aren't getting at CR 300.

    More tutorials/hold my hand modes aren't necessarily going to fix that, harder content will.
    • Like x 2
  4. Brit Loyal Player

    Personally, I do believe new and returning players need more guidance and instruction. I don't believe what they need is more numbers. Whether content is locked, or whether it's just "suggested values", if the player doesn't understand it, then they don't understand it. If a specific raid says that it recommends players have rank 200 in their Augments, a clueless player can comply with that, and still be there as DPS, trying to do precision damage while using Handblaster combos, and sporting the suggested rank 200 Augments... that are all vitalization. Sigh. How many times have you inspected somebody and seen the Package of Skittles, where they are rocking 4 different colors of Augments. Those are the people who don't understand. And giving them a number isn't actually going to help them. Ditto that with skill points, as players allot them into the wrong places; having a bunch of skill points doesn't accomplish anything if you don't know what to do with them.

    What we need is a real tutorial. Players need to learn how to block, and when to block. How and when to blockbreak. How and when to lunge. What constitutes a strong or interuptable attack. How to dodge-roll. They need to learn what each of the roles are supposed to do, especially the one they will be playing. They need to learn what stats are important for their job, how to obtain gear, how Augments and Artifacts work, how mainframes and white mods work. They need to be able to understand how to play, and once they understand how to play, it won't matter if they are CR308 or CR38; they'll be able to know where they should go and what they should be doing.

    All of level 1-29 should be converted into a massive tutorial. Each one of those missions and hideouts along the way could teach a new function of the game. "This boss has to be interrupted while doing this attack, or he's going to heal." That sort of stuff.

    And, more than anything, we need 4 role specific challenges that need to be done somewhere in the high-20s. Something simple like this:

    Tank Challenge: Batman says "I need to hack this computer. Keep these goons off of me so that I can get it done." You get a big visual prompt to change to your Tank role. You have several waves of low-to-moderate trash, and maybe a single boss. You just have to pull them and keep aggro on them so that they do not run straight to Batman and interrupt or kill him. A very simple practice session for Tanks to learn how to grab aggro on multiple things, hold a boss, and maybe do a little bit of juggling.

    Controller Challege: Superman says "Luthor has poisoned me with Kryptonite. I can feel my power weakening. I'm going to need you to help me build my power back up if I'm going to get us out of here." Then you have to activate your power over time, provide power recharges to Superman, and maybe CC a few adds or debuff a boss while Superman takes care of them. Give the Ally Superman ridiculously high damage and give the enemies ridiculously high health, so that you cannot just kill them yourself. Then have Superman use Tank style powers where he keeps all of the aggro off of you, as long as you keep him powered up, and Superman will win the fight based on how much power you give him.

    Healer Challenge: Wonder Woman says "By Hera! Circe's spell is tearing apart the very fabric of my existance. I'll never survive long enough to defeat her without your assistance, Champion." You must provide healing to Wonder Woman throughout a fight that she has with Circe. Failure to heal her sufficiently results in her defeat, but keeping her healed up and fighting allows her to beat Circe for you.

    DPS Challenge: Ambush Bug says "Ambush! Pew! Pew! Pew! Bet I can stop more goons than you can." You then enter a timed challenge to deal X amount of DPS against combinations of trash, adds, and a single boss. Success is not measured by defeating the boss, but rather by doing more damage than Ambush Bug (IE: doing DPS at an acceptable threshold of damage, to prove you can use a rotation that is not god-awful-terrible).
    • Like x 6
  5. Light Bender92 Well-Known Player

    I hate to be that guy but these types of posts aren’t really helpful and usually are just used to gaslight. These same arguments were made when WM and AMs were still a thing and how we should just stop complaining and move on since the devs said they’d NEVER change the system. I appreciate your feedback but this adds nothing to conversation by saying “we’ll never get it,” that’s ridiculous. If enough people make the problem apparent the devs will change it, simple.

    Also are you high? My post literally contradicts your other “points.” No one is shaming or complaining about anyone. I ran the alert with him AND THEN used about a couple hours of MY time to help the dude. My point was that not every player is gunna have time to DO this. Wth are you on about? You’re talking as if I’m being some elitist when I literally state the contrary. “Cut these guys some slack.” You literally missed the entire point of my post and it’s astounding. You built up a straw man and then knocked it down, bravo I guess?
    • Like x 5
  6. willflynne 10000 Post Club

    I don't think you were being called out, specifically. It was more of a description of what happens in general. And you did do the right thing in helping.

    THAT is what should happen more, in my opinion. We as players can move faster to help other players who are new and/or struggling. The devs have made attempts at revamping tutorials many times, and no matter what they try it never seems to take. We're there and can do something right away and don't have to put a new "how-to" through multiple levels of tests.

    All it requires is for those who have the "it's not my job" mentality to realize that getting over that line of thought will go a long way towards solving the problem, and solving it faster than they might realize.
    • Like x 2
  7. Dub T Well-Known Player

    I mostly agree with you. However, the tutorials and menus can be updated and changed many times over, but many new players (not all) will just click through the tutorial without reading or paying attention. As another said, it is up to the experienced players to help educate, if possible of course, the newer players.
    • Like x 1
  8. Zoe· YouTuber

    Maybe forcing players to go through certain tutorials (Like the brainiac ship is a must to do when you start a new character for the first time). So they understand they must learn and can't just skip thinking they are the best. Also don't let them skip before level 30 and having the CR Skip's CR on the first character. Let them learn first, then on alts let them do whatever they want. Sadly not everyone want to learn, some will start drama just for you telling them they are doing it wrong (Even if It's in the nicest way).
    • Like x 4
  9. Irvynnge Loyal Player

    there's your answer, I think. if it's your first character, you should not be able to use the CR skip until you've joined the Justice League. after that, fill your boots, but you should be made to play through what is, essentially, the closest thing we have to anything remotely resembling a proper tutorial in the game, at least once.
    • Like x 1
  10. Whodini Well-Known Player

    Maybe we could have a "Titans Simulator Training Session" for the different aspects of the game (learning to play your role, artifacts, augments, block breaking, power interactions, etc...).

    These could be interspersed throughout the 1-30 process and also during post 30 content with relevant rewards available for successfully completing the sessions.They could also be replayable without rewards to get a refresher.

    A few friends of mine just started playing and they had no idea about generator mods so they were running all their content with no orbital, supply drop, tactical mods. Honestly we shouldn't have to go to youtube to learn the basic ins and outs of the game.
    • Like x 1
  11. Wallachia Loyal Player

    The root of this problem begins on players being carried (thanks to alert roflstompers) and CR skip being available to anyone, allowing them to simply buy their way to the top.

    Find a solution to both problems = players like this will disappear.
    • Like x 1
  12. lordexecution365 Loyal Player

    Hmmm, I really don't know if there is anything that could be done to help.

    I mean there were complaints that it would take a new player way to long to play through all the content to get to end-game, so they now have CR skips and if they took that away the complaints will come back.

    Making content a little bit more difficult, will not have the effect that some would think either because obviously people are struggling now and the game is already easy, to easy really.

    I'm not a fan of role tutorials either, might as well shoehorn everything to just 6 powers per power and take the rest away, even though basically we already have that, at least now you can be viable using different powers.

    Seem to me the best solution would be to still be for people to just do as you have done and to not condone bad behavior.

    Understand that in a blind queue you will find all types of different people with different attitudes and just be patient.

    Understand that not everyone shares the same approach, some people like balance, some people like simplicity like having all augments being the same (personally I think it is overkill but it's my view), some people just want to use a power cause it looks cool, others may want to maximize their stats.

    It seems to me that people take things way to personal and for newer players it can be intimidating, there is enough experience in gaming to make a person not want to ask a simple question out of fear of being shunned or embarrassed.

    Enough to where the internet bully comes out or they look to impress others who also share the same feelings and get praise for being rude and the like.

    It is very easy to say that there needs to be this or that, but being that this game has never had any type of role tutorials or anything else that guided players to knowing what they know, it is a wonder how anyone can say they are elite or have the knowledge to say how anything should be done from only judging from success when the game has already been determined to not be that much more difficult anyway, so to offer anything of value would be far better than to offer nothing.

    We all have that moment when we received some help from someone, though I have to imagine that there will always be someone who will say that they didn't get help, it doesn't really matter where they went, how they found it or what made them decide to take a look at what ever it was that helped them out.

    But it still comes down to being friendly and having an open mind, in something new.

    Not everyone will take advice and not everyone wants advice.
  13. thedemonocus Loyal Player

    If people want to learn the game they will,there are plenty of youtube videos that teach you almost everything you need to know and theres the forums where you can ask questions or look up info and finally if you ask questions in game people will answer. Bottom line is if you are new or returning you can learn the game if you want to. Some people are just lazy and can't be bothered to learn the game and they will always suck even if you take away cr skips or whatever these people will still suck so punishing everyone else is going to do nothing for the game.

    The way things are its hard enough to run alts and almost not worth it. In my case out of the 16 toons i have i only run 3 of them now because its just too hard to maintain any more than that and too expensive because of the artifacts breakthroughs etc.
  14. SekretVillain Loyal Player

    My question is this, why do us as players who are also here to enjoy the game have to help a new player? I never had help when I was new, I didnt start getting help until U was in the 200+ SP range and already knew what I was doing, was it really help or was it actually easing my grind?

    I don't play games to waste time on other peoples progression unless it's a friend. Other then that anyone who is new can do as I did, hell I urge them to do as I did. It will make them better players vs getting carried up to end game.
  15. Irvynnge Loyal Player

    one, because the more players we have playing who know what they're doing the easier it is to get things done. I'd much rather have someone working with me than against me. would it be better if the game explained all that stuff to them? yeah, probably, but it doesn't, so someone's gotta do it. & if it falls to me to explain to someone how to fire off a decent rotation or what cogs to activate or not activate to get us through the raid, then I'm alright with that.

    two, because it's the nice / decent thing to do?

    I was playing this game for about a year & a bit or so, pugging away, not terrible, but not particularly good, before one kindly DPS took me to one side & explained to me how rotations work, what powers interact best with what other powers, where to spec. best thing that ever happened to me in the game. never looked back from that moment on. if not for that DPS, chances are I'd've ended up just walking away, in the long run, but that twenty minutes out of his busy day completely changed the way that I looked at & played the game, &, yup, I'm still here, all these years later.

    I understand what you're saying, but I can't be that cynical. we don't have to hold each other's hands, but being nice to each other, helping each other out, that's the kind of thing that can only makes the game a better place for us all.
    • Like x 2
  16. Jacob Dragonhunter Steadfast Player

    First: I'm not high on anything, if you want to go on about how my posts aren't helpful then I'd strongly suggest you don't go on the route of "personal attacks."

    Second: I'm gas-lighting? No I pointed out a fact that you VERY much made clear in your op and that these threads are doing nothing more than player shaming.
    Let me take a quote:
    "And then it hit me, how did this guy, even with all the tutorial prompts and messages, not know wth he was doing at 300 cr?"

    If that's not player shaming, then I don't know what it is. That message right there clearly indicates you were awestruck with how someone could possibly be CR 300 and still be new to the game.

    Yes, you used a couple of hours of your time to help the guy out and that's to be commended for: But your still wondering why the guy in question didn't know what he was doing because again.. your letting CR dictate whether a player is good or not; which was another vaild point I made, not a strawman.

    Yes, it's still unlikely they'll change the tutorial. WM/AM's got changed, that's true. But WM/AM's aren't a 10 year old problem that's been waiting forever to be fixed.Tutorials on the other hand have never been fixed.

    What I then concluded was that we needed harder content to challenge newer and veteran players, we also need players to be tolerable of newer players at CR 300 and to let those players experience trial and error.
    So in conclusion: I wasn't strawmanning you, I never once mentioned you in my reply by name. All I said is that these newer players should be cut some slack because we were new at one point in the game.
    Next time, read my replies and consider the context of what I'm saying before you go accusing me of "being high".
  17. willflynne 10000 Post Club

    No one says you HAVE to do it. But it's best to keep in mind that if you see someone struggling and are in a position to lend a hand but do nothing, you pretty much lose any right to complain about that.

    That and the points Irvynnge raised. :D
    • Like x 2
  18. Littlejaytee16 Committed Player


    Even more importantly.... the game needs to properly teach people how to play support roles. Up to Level 30 you're the Damage Role. All of a sudden you're expected know how to play Controller or Tank in a multiplayer instance? And we are expected to understand what all the descriptions under our powers, artifacts and mods really mean? Some of that text reads like a math equation. You're left thinking.... what did I just read?

    Granted, players coming from other MMORPG's will have a better understanding of the way things work than most. But because this is DC... you have a lot of players coming to this game because of the IP with no prior MMORPG experience. These are the players that get completely lost after Level 30.

    At least these days there are plenty of YouTube channels to learn from. That wasn't the case 9 years ago when this game first came out.

    I wrote a post awhile ago with a very similar suggestion. A training simulator based around support roles. And during this instance you have to do what that role calls for in order to succeed. For example a Troll would run with an NPC Tank, Healer and Damage. And during that alert they'd have to do things like debuff enemy targets and give teammates power. And the training simulator could have multiple difficulty levels.

    If the game did this, I think it would go a long way in encouraging people to play support roles.

    Now the actual grind needed to make one role, let alone a support role competitive? ( i.e. gear, artifacts and augments) That's a different story.....
    • Like x 1
  19. willflynne 10000 Post Club

    I'll give you that the game could do a better job of bringing awareness of non-damage roles. The email you get along the leveling process with a piece of jewelry for your powerset's non-damage role isn't quite enough. I've always thought adding a console stop during the HQ tour would be a decent method of bringing that part of the game to light. So I think it'd be more accurate to say that it's easy to miss that you can do something other than damage before you reach level 30.

    That being said, I just don't think there's a method of properly teaching those non-damage roles. It may not be as pronounced with Controllers, but Tanking and Healing powersets are more or less similar but still very distinct from one another. You aren't going to tank in the same way on Earth or Rage characters because the mechanics for those powersets are different, and you have some Healing powers that concentrate more on burst healing while others do heals over time. There are enough differences that I don't think making a "one size fits all" tutorial would be easy under the best of circumstances, and under the worst it might not even be possible. Plus it'd have to be adjusted should they introduce some new powersets along the way (we can always dream LOL) because you'd have a whole new set of mechanics to account for.

    The other problem? Running a non-damage role is optional. It's not a requirement of the game, but I wouldn't be surprised if some would strongly advocate that a "non-damage role tutorial" be mandatory during the leveling process. But for those who don't want to run a non-damage role or just don't care about that aspect of their character, a tutorial like that would end up being wasted time and effort on the part of the devs.
    • Like x 1
  20. Kira_kun Active Player

    The tutorial doesn't have to be tailored for the specific powers, but more of a general guide.

    E.g. How aggro works (snap aggro vs. aggro over time), Burst Heals vs. HoTs, Preparing for Tank Busters, Buffs & Debuffs.

    Whatever happened to the tutorial on Interrupts, Block Breakers and Blocking on Braniac's ship?

    For the specific skills under the different powersets, you can actually learn about them on the fly. I mean, that's what the leveling to 30 is for. Eventually, you'll learn what works and what suits your playstyle best.

    If you ask me, the CR skip should only be unlocked as an option for new characters only when the account actually has a character at that CR level. At least then, people would at least have some basic knowledge of how the game works. Unless they get carried all the way or take over someone else's account.
    • Like x 1