Devs: Can we revisit the minimum CR levels for episodes?

As Brit points out you need 60 sp for crits and 100 in your base stat for the 10% bonus. Your 202 is more than enough for that. The big difference next are your artifacts. New cr skip players might struggle in elite raids with no artifacts.

I have been Atomic Tanking at minimum CR on EU server. I have also been playing Mental Troll at minimum CR. I tanked and trolled at close to base SP in JLD, Metal Pt 1 and Metal Pt 2. The SP on both are below 100 sp last I checked.

Raising minimum CR is not a great idea in my books. This will only make things harder for vets like me from gaining loot sooner than later.

SPs factor quite heavily into this. I've spent enough tie away from the game where my main is sitting at only 213ish SP, and even then i'm able to keep up with people 40-50CR higher than me.

We might need to take a look a some of these feats that are very difficult to get. One that has always irritated me is the 500 central city bounties feat. In no way would a player need to stick to that episode's content for that much time for a feat that requires such a significant investment and offers so little compared to other, newer feats. Same it the bottled duos feats. Players progress through episodes so ridiculously fast that it's implied that SP aren't worth the chase and gear progression is emphasized every 15 minutes or so. (On a recent alt I shot up from 101 to 136 in a matter of hours).

Feats could use a reworking so that the expected time an episodes relevancy would be would allow players to naturally obtain feats (not all, but enough) so that the time they're at a particular CR, you can expect them to have obtained a certain amount of feats. For duos and solo events it wouldn't be a bad idea to reintroduce the survival feats and similar from the campaign era of play. These would trickle feed a set amount of feat unlocks to players as they progress and help pad stats. The relationship with feat progression does change somewhat dramatically through the years of content. It tends to jump back and forth from seamless to a plethora of difficult (especially to solo) feats, or those mired in RNG chance (styles) and then back. Product of the shifting design team and creative takes on the whole thing, which includes the changes of DLC formats.


Another alternative would be a total rework of this system. Rather than going for feats, players would instead have the exp bar come back. Continuing to accrue exp through regular play will result in the awarding of 1 SP when the bar i full. Bar resets and the cycle begins again. This way you get credit for staying plugged in (and actually playing - not going AFK) and entices ongoing activity. This is not unlike how it works in competing MMOs on the same platforms. Might be due for a change and out-the-box thinking.

This would be a verryyy bad idea,because now your limiting peoples ability to do content based on what facet of the game they engage with

that was never a rule the community made that up, the majority of stats come from gear, not sp

I agree an SP lockout is a little extreme but people are already limiting their ability to complete content by not participating in their character's growth. You need a healthy amount of stats to pull your weight in content and gear alone does not provide that.

Gear + Augments + SP + Artifacts + Mods + League Buffs + efficient Loadouts
If someone is lacking in more than one piece of the equation it shows. Too many people are getting kicked lately, I've been in a few LFG groups that end in disband because one or more people just hold the group back.

Does this feel specific to CR-advanced characters? No. That's a form of confirmation bias that players are noticing. There are CR-advanced characters who are struggling with these 255 characters, yes, but there are also many 255 characters who used this advancement and perform seamlessly, to the degree that they do not draw any attention, notice, or inspection. Experienced players used their skip to create or advance alts and can use them without issue. Primarily what the players voicing this complaint are seeing is a combination of several factors that weigh in in these failing characters, of which low skill points is only a very small part of it.

1- Little or no experience with the new powerset.
2- Little or no experience with the content they are entering.
3- Being match-made into groups of people who are both overpowered for the content and well-familiarized with the mechanics, so the raid moves very quickly with little or no instruction being given to the new player.
4- Lack of appropriately leveled Artifacts.
5- Lack of additional stats, such as generator mods and League stat bonuses.
6- Lack of a proper tutorial or training in how to fulfill Support roles.

Labeling all strugglings as being the result of skill points is a pretty naïve view and really only an idea entertained by people who haven't actually looked at the math to see exactly how the skill points work and how much of a diminishing return there is at higher levels.

Suggested CR versus Minimum CR seems pretty well on point for Regulars. For Elites, I respect the fact that the goal is to keep the CR very similar to the Regulars, because it is supposed to be execution of mechanics, not gear, that makes the difference. I do, however, wish there were some sort of Key or Attunement so that players could not queue for Elites until they had completed it on Regular at least once. Alternatively, if the "Queue All" button did not include Elite Raids, I would be similarly satisfied. I am fine with players being able to queue for Elites at their current minimums, but I've noticed quite a few inexperienced players who queue for Elite content apparently accidentally by clicking that Queue All and not realizing what they were signing up for.

Does Failure encourage players to improve via character advancement? Only if you're a Tank. The current meta for raid groups is 5-1-1-1. Everyone seems to run very heavy on DPS, because most mechanics have been replaced with larger health pools that require longer fights to burn. If you're a DPS, there are no enrage timers or hard-limits on fight times, so if you are underperforming through gear, you still succeed, just slower. If you are a Controller or a Healer, the increases from the gear are small enough increments that any struggles are most often the results of poorly executed mechanics, rather than gear deficiency. "I don't have a hard time healing this. You just need to block on the skull attack." Players either improve mechanics or fail. Eventually gear will increase enough to circumvent mechanics, but (from the perspective of someone who is a healer 98% of the time), it will be the DPS getting their gear and increasing their own Defense and Health that will make more difference for me than what I see in my own Restoration increases, because most of their deaths happen to one-shots. But if you're a poorly outfitted Tank, a Tank without Artifacts for example, the difference is extremely noticeable. A poorly geared Tank is also getting one-shotted and destroyed by things they are supposed to be Tanking; they are the most stat-dependent of the roles. Playing as a Tank, if I fail, I quickly find myself assuming that the content is just out of my reach for my current gear, and then I just run as DPS until I gear up further to start to trivialize parts of the encounters.

Should success be the expectation? For non-Elite content, if you meet the criteria to enter, you should be able to assume that you will be able to successfully complete the content. Failure in fight mechanics aside, characters that meet the criteria to enter should not be instantly dying to attacks that are not one-shot kills by design. If the game says you're powerful enough to run the content, then the truth should not be that you are expected to level up further before you are able to do it. Failure should always feel like it is the result of mechanics, and not the result of players who meet the criteria to enter but somehow were in fact too weak.

I personally hold that the current queuing system and minimums work fine the way they are. Perhaps though, if it is the Development Team's intentions to communicate that the minimum is insufficient to run the content, and rather should be expected to be carried, and the Recommended CR is in fact the true minimum to expect success, then the Recommended CR should become required for players who wish to solo queue, and those Minimum persons lower than that would be treated more like the old under-geared walk-ins, where they would only be permitted to queue as a part of a group that is queuing together, recognizing and accepting their liability.

Thats pretty common in every game, a few subpar performing players, but to be honest, trying to balace with as many variables as DCUO has i dont see how balance exist, when youre trying to balance around, weapons, powers, precision, might, mods, artifacts, SP, and artifacts. Alot of it neds to be shaved down

I manage to stay competitive in most content on my Quantum toon, even with admittedly low SP (sub 200), I just wish we had another method of gaining SP besides just feats. Idk if it's the times I log on or just plain bad luck, but I can never seem to find someone willing to help me gain SP points in older content I passed on the skip, and I don't have the money to pour into time capsule feats (a whole other issue entirely).

I wish there was some sort of way to farm up SP through combat like with Artifact Nth Metal.

The problem with some of the feats you mention is that not everyone has access to those episodes, and it could be very difficult to justify handing out feats to players who may never have had access to. It's one thing if a player was subbed and has accomplished the feats but then let their sub lapse, but not having the episode and being given feats could be a bit thorny. Probably why the feats that ARE given out with a skip are tied to the core/base game that everyone has access to.

As for reworking it? I don't see that going over well. You'd be messing with code that's been in place since the start of the game, and you can never tell what sort of problems might pop up when you start fiddling with that. Plus it probably wouldn't be a small task and could have an adverse effect on content delivery. And folks have never taken well to delays in content here.

The issue to me isn't really about CR. It's about stats. There are a multitude of ways to get stats in this game. However, other than stating a suggested dominance for 4-player or 8-player content (which isn't even relevant if you are a healer or dps; the suggested dominance for Dark Multiverse is 11894 but my dominance is nowhere near that for healing/dps & I can get through that raid in either role just fine as long as the group is decent), there's no form of true guidance for what should be expected.

CR can be used for granting access to episodes, but I think the rest of the information should be suggested stats for health, vitalization, restoration, might, precision, and dominance. We can all check out our own stats and then make a better determination of whether we're ready for the content or not based on the role we're choosing to play.

Personally, failing does keep me out of content until I have earned enough currency to get better gear (or it drops from solos/duos/open world) as I assume my stats aren't high enough yet. So, I'm not an advocate that content needs to be so easy that everyone can get through regardless... unless it's event mode (that should be "success is the norm").

1. Not soley but the majority in my experience

2. The cr maybe, but thats for a character thats leveled up naturaly, has a good amount of supplemental gear, knows their power, role, game mechanics etc...but like others have said the supplemental gear is lacking. Mods (generator and gear) trinkets, back up, supply drops, artifacts etc... But mostly experience of power/role and experience in tough content is the biggest hindrance. And with that experience comes the knowledge that u need those extra things for some content.

3. For this one the problem comes with different players wanting different things from each instance. For a player new to the game or instance, failure should encourage getting better gear etc... But for players a dlc or 2 above the instance, who have already beaten said instance dozens to hundreds of times, success is to be expected.

When u have these mixed in a tough challenge its a recipe for disaster. The fresh crs are weak and lacking experience and the high crs are strong but lack patience and time. Both are either unwilling or unable to help the other (usually justifiably so on both sides) and it ends in wipes, re q's, rinse and repeat. The high crs are looking for a group to get thru stuff quickly and the fresh 255's are off to look for some help or to be carried.

Ideally the fresh crs would run the solos/duos, outside dailys, some lower cr missions build up their inventory, marks, gear and mods get some exp and move to the tougher stuff.

But can u really blame them for just jumping in blindly? Not really. When theyre new to the game and they're told that all they need is a min cr or suggested cr and they meet it.

I think the problem might be expectations. U tell them they can complete something at a certain level, they think they can and expect to be able to. Meanwhile endgame people expect to breeze thru stuff from 2 dlc ago and expect atleast a semi competent group when theyre doing near endgame missions. Neither get what they're looking 4 and frustration ensues.

U throw these two types togeather with vastly different expectations from each others and expect psoitive results when u just end up with frustrations from both sides.

This is a tiny problem that happens year round but when the cr jump comes around it becomes much more frequent.

It's a fair stance to take, but in my experience stats alone never tell the whole story. Player ability has always been a factor in this game.

I've always had a tendency to underplay my characters in MMOs, and DCUO is no exception. There are challenges I've taken on that, just going by stats, I shouldn't be able to do but nonetheless accomplished. It wasn't always a cakewalk but I was able to do them. Plus I keep thinking back to when CR differential was in place and trying something like Oa Under Siege at entry level was near impossible not because of a fault in my tactics or experience but because of the artificial barrier created by the differential. Once CR differential went away, I was able to finish that mission with minimal hassles (usually caused by not being familiar with the mechanics of the content).

Unfortunately individual player ability is something that can't really be quantified with a number.

Hows it a fail? You click 3 random items boom. As far as DMR goes you cant fail that or it's a instant wipe every time. So stop trying to compare apples to oranges.

That hasn't been an issue for years. The only PvP gear a person can buy cheaply is the one in the police stations/nightclubs. You need quite a bit of Marks of Valor to get certain PvP gear, which means those players will quickly learn not to use that gear for PvE (unlike in the past, when after level 30 PvP gear was pretty easy to acquire).

Well about 2 weeks ago, I was in the JLD 4 man that had repeated wipes. Upon inspection, one of my pug members was rocking 2 pieces of PVP gear (yes it was the blue Club stuff) along with support and DPS pieces. So this still happens. Most likely an inexperienced player trying out their new gift.

I actually feel that it shouldn't really be a factor with players ability so to speak because of the reason that you give with it not being able to quantify.

Way to much whining goes on with this whole discussion, yet every option is given along with the down scaling of content, the dumbing down of all kinds of things one in order to make content feel linear in progression.

Yet most of the back g problems remain and are being basically discussed in this thread if you look at it all.

Having everything reliant on CR shouldn't be in the game.

CR should be the determining factor of how high a person can get to bro content but stats should be the ultimate determining factor.

If a person meet the suggested CR and stats it does not mean that they will be a shoe win either.

The problem is we are so judgemental of who we want to run with or what we perceive of others and feel that everybody is so good, we throw out chance.

We throw out operator error.

We don't encourage each other to go work on their toons.

We belittle them and then proceed to carry them in hopes of feeling like a beast.

Not all do but enough do to where it hurts the newer player.

Ok....but that's an anomaly these days...not like way back between 2011-2014, where that was a seriously regular occurrence.

That's never been the case with this game. The closest we've gotten to that was during the CR relevancy days, and those are gone now.

Stats are just numbers. They don't and won't determine how well a player can perform with their character, especially in a combat system that's as active as this one. Stats being king may work in more traditional MMOs where things like auto-attack or macro use are allowed, but here? We have to play, and stats won't save you if you don't or can't play well.

It's a fail strategy because the strategy is literally for you to fail- you seriously don't understand?