Defense Debuff and how it works

Discussion in 'War Room (Powers, Artifacts, & Builds)' started by Yaiba, Jun 11, 2021.

  1. Shalayah Committed Player

    Yeah trolls aren’t needed, but they will always be a better option for damage than a DPS stacked group.
  2. Qwantum Abyss Dedicated Player

    This could not be further from the truth.
    If your a dps and your running with a good troll tossing buffs an debuffs and you dont notice a difference (or only see a marginal difference) then your a terrible dps.
    In the new duo if i run with a good buff troll its faster by a big margin. And thats only me (1 dps) taking advantage of the buffs an debuffs.
    We tested this thoroughly. 100% of the time it was faster with me an the troll than with me and another dps.
    The damage is miles faster. Its extreemly noticeable
    • Like x 1
  3. Qwantum Abyss Dedicated Player

    By that logic, dps’s arent needed either so its disingenuous to say trolls arent needed because the same logic applies to dps.
    Perhaps healers are not needed either if u stack 8x tanks then?
    Its all irrelevant. Literally every group in the game is better off with a good troll. Understanding how much benefit there is to buffs and debuffs and understanding about the damage penalty works (most players still dont know or understand this) means trolls are VERY needed IF you want the content to be faster, smoother, and easier.

    To that point, nothing in this game lights my fire more than when i go into the alert and theres 4 of us dps and i ask “can anyone troll” (because i understand we will take less damage penalty AND get buffs AND get debuffs and that equals WAY more damage) and i get responses like
    “In an alert? No way”
    I then explain the basics of this about how we will get faster damage from buffs an debuffs. About how we will take less of a damage penalty etc.
    The the fire gets extra lit when the obvious CR skippers proceed to act like im the idiot because they dont understand any of this an saying things like
    “There is no damage penalty” or “you dont know anything”

    Its just absurd…….
    The devs need to be more transparent about these things. When you get in a group a message should flash saying “be careful, each dps is suffering a x% damage penalty for having too many damagers” or something helpful so these morons can stop spreading their misinformation
  4. Essential Exobyte Well-Known Player

    Correct me if im wrong, but the last boss in the elite duo has a defense buff. If you debuff him with a troll, then it will be much faster burn. Unfortunately, ive never seen a troll in that duo, ever. Hence what i was talking about, only works better to debuff a buffed boss rather than an unbuffed boss.
  5. Controller Loyal Player

    The beauty of that Flashpoint Elite Duo is that EVERY ROLE could be used, to good benefit.

    I've Trolled it once - with a good dps with good burn...used defense debuffs on HW and it DOES help to burn him faster...

    With a good level on your Rao Amulet that helps as well.

    Unfortunately Trolls are rarely used in the duo.

    Credit to the Devs for TRYING, at least.
    • Like x 2
  6. Qwantum Abyss Dedicated Player

    False, its always better to debuff anything.
    Everything dies much faster debuffed.
    Debuffing a butfed enemy removes their buff 1st so the impact is the same. They will take “x%” more damage than otherwise
  7. Qwantum Abyss Dedicated Player

    The thing i care about most in any instance is having a good troll.
    Anything not a raid you can always “get away with” not having a specific role. Fir me, its not about “can it be done” or “is it nescessary”. Its about how do we make it the easiest, fastest, smoothest.
    And to me that all starts with a good dps (me) and a good troll. From there, i work with anything available. I have great survivability even tho i dps so trolls r top of my list.
    My preference of course for duo is dps and troll
    My preference for alert is dps, troll, tank, heal
    My raid preference is tank (sometimes 2) heal (sometimes 2) troll (sometimes 2) and then 3 dps

    Every piece of content in the game is smoother an easier and most times faster utilizing roles.
    Its pure stupid to intensionally stack dps and leaving out other roles. The damage penalty you take per dps for stacking them is by design to make content better with roles. Stacking dps is like pushing a car uphill. Running with a good troll is like sitting in the car while it rolls downhill.
    It just is, people in game can live denial an ignorance all they want but the fact remains
    • Like x 1
  8. HurricaneErrl Dedicated Player

    It is entirely group dependant on which kind of troll works best.
  9. HurricaneErrl Dedicated Player

    In 8 man content
  10. HurricaneErrl Dedicated Player

    Unless you are running with a low tier dps, having a second dps in the duo should be doing more damage than any small percent of buffs a troll would give you. Instead of getting whatever percent in a might buff, you'd have a second dps doing max damage.
  11. Shalayah Committed Player


    I was saying that trolls aren’t needed to complete content but they are a better option for getting content done in a timely manner than a dps stacked group which is true. Debuffed bosses burn much quicker than a buffed boss and a dps stacked group can’t debuff bosses.
    • Like x 1
  12. Yaiba Committed Player

    Heatwave (elite) is an interesting fight, he starts with a 30% damage mitigation (aka shield icon), and the only way to remove it is destroy his fuel tank, you can do this 5 times, the last one will get rid of the buff permanently. Defense debuff will NOT remove his buff (icon is gone but the buff is still on), it just adds an extra damage bonus (11-17% based on your artifacts) as I expected.
  13. Yaiba Committed Player

    This is totally wrong, take the duo as an example, for heatwave fight (30% damage mitigation), consider 2 setups:

    . 2 DPS, they have same damage, and X is their damage output, we have 2X:
    . (2X) x (0.7) = 1.4X damage

    . 1 DPS + 1 Battle Troll (normally the damage is 70% of DPS), without buffs:
    . (1.7X) x (0.7) x (1 / (1-0.1)) = 1.32X damage

    . With buffs (like group weapon buff,etc), usually it is 10% increase (probably higher :p) , we now have:
    . (1.32X) x (1.1) = 1.452X which is better than the first setup

    In the end it's more about how much damage the troll can bring to the table (because DPS can buff too), Battle Troll and DPS should beat 2 DPS for example. Also my average clear time for elite duo is 5:30min, and imo, it's pretty fast (troll + dps setup).
    • Like x 1
  14. Qwantum Abyss Dedicated Player

    Actually damage out is the same. Enemys have the heath they have. Its the speed in which the damage is applied and your rite, if both dps’s were on par with each other then perhaps 2 would be a tick faster. But rarely see any that can keep up or out damage me so yea, if i have a troll in there its miles faster than a 2nd dps
  15. Kimone Luthor Genetech Clone

    Controller Powersets are (some of, Earth and Electric are VERY accomodating, and I can't speak to Atomic but I'm sure SOMEONE here can) the easiest to convert to battle-support hybrid and even straight DPS-support format - yes there's a difference.

    Even with 100% DPS Arts and Gear, a Controller-role character can maintain a reasonable (if not overwhelming) level of Power output, especially with Power Crits thanks to Strategist and repeated on-scheduled Burst Regen. Since they can maintain their core functionality - debuff, Prec buff, and Power return - and still output 90-95% of their DPS-role damage in that situation, you effectively have a DPS that no longer contributes to the -12% penalty for stacking DPS.

    Running them as a Precision-build means the two most critical elements of a Controller rotation - the Defense debuff and the Burst Regen - are directly integrated into their primary combat rotation, so you're not going to be worrying about sloppy timing for those two facets either, they're going to be there on time every time. Plus, a couple of the Controller builds can still integrate their group Shield SC into their rotation without subbing out any DPS options (though since it's gonna be hiding in the Stealth or Invis loadout, situational factors would have to be accounted for to retain that functionality).

    Additionally, one can sub out the third DPS artifact (Grim, VWD, or whatever) for Amulet of Rao for AOE boss Boss w/ Adds situations and lose minimal damage output to their own rotation while providing that full-range heavy debuff.

    I know why people don't just want Anyone trying battle-support or DPS-support, because it's an experiment people take on before they're ready (I did it too) insofar as the Artifact and SP portion of their build are concerned, but I'm a little shocked that there's the amount of resistance to the idea when done correctly.
  16. Kimone Luthor Genetech Clone

    I run the duo majorily in the Controller role on my Main, both for the Amazo and Heatwave fight (though I have a very adulterated definition of Controller role these days)
    • Like x 1