Defense Debuff and how it works

Discussion in 'War Room (Powers, Artifacts, & Builds)' started by Yaiba, Jun 11, 2021.

  1. Yaiba Committed Player

    First of all, the damage you do on sparring targets is actually the same in contents (higher with buffs). With 81563 might, I got some numbers:

    . Sparring Target (troll): 1754
    . With defense debuff: 1949 = 1754 / (1-0.1)
    . With amulet of rao: 2063 = 1754 / (1-0.15)

    . Sparring Target (dps): 1958 (with Core Strength)
    . FFE stage 1: 1958 (same as sparring target) -> brainiac has same defense as sparring target or none
    . FFE stage 2 : 1567 = 1958 / (1+0.25)
    . FFE stage 3: 1305 = 1958 / (1+0.5)
    . FFE stage 4: 1119 = 1958 / (1+0.75)
    . FFE stage 5: 979 = 1958 / (1+1)

    . Sparring Target (dps): 1924 (without Core Strength)
    . FFE stage 5: 962 = 1924 / (1+1)
    . With defense debuff: 1069 = 1924 / (1+1) x (1-0.1)

    Conclusion: defense debuffs act like another damage bonus (like core strength,etc).
  2. Elpower Active Player

    I always had my doubts about how deffus worked.
    Could you explain the subject in more depth for people who are not familiar please.
  3. Yaiba Committed Player

    Defense debuff is a damage modifier, and it's not based on target's defense like you see in the description. You will get the same extra damage regardless of their defense stat (as you see in my tests, stage 5 brainiac and sparring target). The damage formula for it:

    . Damage Output = (base damage) x ( 1 / (1 - D%) )
    . D%: the value of defense debuff, normally it's 10%, so 1 / (1 - 0.1) = 1 / 0.9 = 11.11% extra damage. If you have rao equipped, it's 15%.
  4. Yaiba Committed Player

    Having defense debuff: 11.11% extra damage
    With Amulet of Rao:

    . rank 80: 13.36%
    . rank 120: 14.94%
    . rank 160: 16.27%
    . rank 200: 17.64%
  5. Qwantum Abyss Dedicated Player

    The evidence they work is apparent and easily noticed.
    Enemys melt crazy fast when a troll is in the group doing their job (this goes for ANY content too, not just raids).
    The groups or people that say trolls are useless dont understand how the game works at all.
    Everything is faster/easier with a good troll.
    • Like x 4
  6. Yaiba Committed Player

    I want to add one thing is that the debuff is not weaker, or stronger in different contents. The damage bonus is the same, on sparring target, on brainiac, even on doomsday, etc. :D
    • Like x 3
  7. Critical Massacre Well-Known Player

    Thanks for explaining this.
  8. lieutenant Active Player

    How would this relate to grimbors chains?
  9. lllStrichcodelll ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Not that i disagree, but when people say "trolls are useless", they usually mean theyre not mandatory all the time.
    Meaning you can beat almost all content without a troll but much, much less content without a tank or heal.

    Overall, greater burn makes some fights significantly easier, thus making a good troll or even buff troll the best support to have of course.
  10. lieutenant Active Player

    I'm extremely lost on the numbers as well
  11. Yaiba Committed Player

    The artifact doesn't change the strength of debuff, it just adds another effect to it. The numbers stay the same. And which part you dont understand?
  12. Qwantum Abyss Dedicated Player

    Maybe so but the cries off total uselessness are ongoing and non-stop and its a false claim, the opposite is in fact true and i take every opportunity to plain this is all.
    The claim is useless even if they mean something else. The claim is false. Thus i point it out as often as possible. If the ones claiming this mean what you say then they need to stop conflating their argument lol
    • Like x 1
  13. lieutenant Active Player

    these numbers are what I'm lost on. The numbers in parenthesis for sure. Also, I know it doesn't increase the strength of the debuff, however it does give extra damage on top of the debuff
  14. Essential Exobyte Well-Known Player

    You and me both. I dont even know where they get the 1754 at. You have all that might at 81,563 and only do 1754 damage? Hmm, ok. And the whole big number over the 1 minus/plus whatever is a clever way of making numbers have little value. With the artifact that increases debuffs by 50%, that is a misperception on what that entails. It is not 'ooh 50% a big number!! i'm gonna do so much more damage', its more like 'half of a small number is an even smaller number that dont mean anything and your damage out only increases marginally'.

    During the stats revamp, the devs made sure that the damage out from us stays flat. So any number like dubuffs are irrelevant for more damage out. Personally, if a boss is debuffed or not, I see no difference in the burn, unless the boss is defense buffed and then you see 10% of damage getting through.

    A power troll is better as you supply power to your team so they can do their damage and not sit there with godly might with no means to use it.
  15. Yaiba Committed Player

    "0.1 aka 10%" and "0.15 aka 15%" are the value of defense debuff (with and without artifact).

    For Brainiac, 0.25/0.5/0.75/1 are the defense bonus, which is equal to 25% / 50% / 75% / 100%. In short, at stage 5 (critical), you deal 50% less damage. And the important thing is that defense debuff does not affect this bonus at all, hence why (1 + 1) x (1 - 0.1).

    Grimbor's chain gives you 1% of your total damage dealt as extra damage, so you can think it's like 0.01 x ((Total Damage) / (1 - %defense debuff)) x (Number of Enemy).

    About 1 +/-, it's just the base stat, like when we have 10% (0.1) damage bonus, we multiply our damage with 1.1 (1 + 0.1). :D
  16. Yaiba Committed Player

    Actually fear gas does 9 hits, and all of them have fixed base damage, so I look at the changes for one tick (it will apply for all 9 ticks). "1 +/-" is how percentages work, or at least what devs are using for their damage formula.
  17. lieutenant Active Player

    so at this level it would be better to use penetrating strikes where you ignore their 2% of the defense
  18. Yaiba Committed Player

  19. lieutenant Active Player

    can you tell me the formula so I can understand it better?? I'm more of a hands on learner
  20. Yaiba Committed Player

    For might. we have: TOTAL DAMAGE = (Base Damage)
    . x (base might)
    . x (1 + %might)
    . x (1 + %critical damage)
    . x (1 + %damage bonus)
    . x (1 + %penetrating strike)
    . / (1 - %defense debuff)

    If the bonuses are in same category, they're additive with each other:
    . Base Might: Equipment, SP, Artifacts, Origin/Adaptive Augments, etc - "X might"
    . %Might: Affinity mods, SP, Artifacts, Adaptive Augments, Compound Omega, etc - "X% might"
    20% might = 0.2 -> 1 + 0.2 = 1.2
    . %Damage Bonus: Damage Role, Core Strength, Max Damage, Computo's Redistributor HUD, Transformation Card, etc