Counter Mechanics are Broken in PvE

Please try to be constructive toward this thread. Most of us have no problems with the combat mechanics idea. The problem we have is that they do not work consistently between NPCs and players, and that there are bugs in the counters that result in counter occurring against us when our counter should be working in our favor.

I have seen lunges counter lunges. I have seen npcs counter me even after I have already knocked them out. I have been countered by a lunge when I changed from range to block, countered by a block breaker when I changed from block to lunge, or countered by a block when I changed from lunge to block breaker. The problems seem to stem from player counters lasting past when we change and/or a latency issue in how npcs perceive our counters.

The developers need to tune the latency for player/npc counters to work more in line with what we are doing in game. They also need to change it so if I am ranging/blocking/lunging, those cannot be countered as if I continue to use my weapon while I am using a power afterward. Powers should only be countered if they are vulnerable to interrupt, but powers should not be countered as if I am still doing the same weapon action I was doing before I used my power.

The problem is when the npc get an immunity, they keep it to long. It's like 3-5 times longer than the one we get

I have to agree that the way these "PvP" mechanics work in game cause quite a bit of frustration in their present form.

Yes, that is part of the problem people are experiencing. Some people are unaware of that mechanic. The concerns I have voiced are with regular, non-immunity able npcs who defy the combat mechanics even without being immune. Most of it stems from latency issues (which may be network latency, but since I have little actual lag, that latency should be taken into account by the server and not penalize me), and some may stem from player weapon actions continuing into power actions when they should not. Powers should not count as part of our weapon combos unless specifically stated so in the power description, e.g. Rage/Celestial precision combos might make sense to do so, but Mental/Ice/might-based powers do not combo with weapons so should not be vulnerable to counters unless they are vulnerable to an interrupt.

I recently had a run of soul where everyone died at the start leaving me to fight the end boss. Whenever i used a block breaker while the boss was guarding he outright ignored it. He was not flashing to indicate immunity, it was not a fake out, the shield symbol was above his head, he was taking damage, but i could not block break him. It was when i lunged him multiple times during the fight while he was using his block breakers (9/10 he ignored my lunges btw), I realized npcs have a far shorter counter window then players do to initiate a counter.

This is where my concern lies regarding "Weapon Mastery". How often are we even able to get to the 4th tier of a weapon combo now? It will be interesting to see if it's cleaned up. Because, unless I misunderstood something, you're pulling off a set of combos just to get to the opportunity to deal that WHAMMY damage. The only way I see it working if it were dropped today would be to combo away from the target and then try to target lock right as you enter the damage bonus or something goofy like that.

I found a year-old thread in the developer discussion forum about block breaker/vulnerability window timing in which a dev explained the reasoning for the larger-than-expected vulnerability window. Turns out things are working exactly as the devs want them to, despite their reasoning and observer reaction time calculations being far more applicable to PvP rather than PvE. Concerns expressed later in that thread were ignored.

It's highly unlikely that they will engage the community on this subject again. To them, it's "case closed".

You know what's ironic? The fact that I had to learn and practice counter mechanics to discover that none of it really mattered, because my success rate was going to be 50-50 even with near-perfect execution. I'm getting tired of having to question whether performing a move described as a [Block Breaker] is actually going to affect an enemy in blocking stance with a blue shield over its head; it's supposed to work that way, right? There should be a better reward for doing the work of learning the system than to actually make you more prone to having it work against you.

As for the enemies that can switch from range attacking to blocking instantaneously and punish you for trying to interrupt or lunge them (I'm looking at you, Arkillo and SBot) - fine, they aren't super villains for no reason. I'll chalk that one up to lore, the rest seems more like a contrived way to add "challenge" by making it impossible at times to perform the right move at the right time. They know all about network lag and human reaction time windows, now they need to apply the psychology: many players are frustrated with this issue, and ignoring it is not going to help that.

To be clear, I don't want a nerf or elimination of the mechanics - I want better parity. If this means shortening the vulnerability window a few more ms than what science indicates it "should" be (remember this is strictly PvE I'm talking about), then perhaps that should be examined again. Something's not right here, and the fact that multiple players across multiple hardware and network setups are seeing the same problems points to a centralized adjustment being required.

I know your reply is fairly old at this point and I'm late to the part, but what I think he's addressing are the times an NPC will do a normal weapon combo and not follow the same rules as players. For example, hand blasters. If a player hits a blocking enemy with the Square, Square, Square combo, the player falls down and the NPC takes a total of 3 damage. However, if an NPC hits a blocking player with that same exact combo, the player takes much more damage than 3 and the NPC will not fall. I think that's part of what he was talking about.

I view that as one of the many issues that the pve counter mechanics have. Another issue I've noticed a lot lately is npcs ignore the counter system even though they have not gained immunity from successfully countering pcs like they are supposed to.

this ^ ran trigon today/lastnight and member of the hades family part, was blocking before doing anything to them i shot a grenade at them 3 times... THREE TIMES and still no knock down.


yet they lunge once while im shooting a grenade and knock me down... -_-

I have this problem as well. So annoying when you are tanking and and attacking multiple NPC at once. What is worse is the countering an npc will only work via the player who is being attacked and not the one who is attacking.

This has been brought up before, but the player vulnerability windows are far too long in PvE. The overhang sometimes lasts for two powers after a weapon combo. This means that players can find themselves in a near-perpetual state of counter vulnerability and being punished for something they did two moves ago. Worse, players can be vulnerable to interrupt AND vulnerable to a block breaker AT THE SAME TIME - try following an interruptible move with a block and you can briefly see both vulnerability symbols as the interrupt symbol persists underneath the block symbol.

This needs to be fixed for PvE, as the enemies are not other players with reaction times and network lag of their own to account for in the combat timing. Though not necessarily game-breaking, it is annoying and unnecessary when enemies already have advantages like unblockable control effects (super-knockbacks into the sky, instant-presto-hardstuns) and the whole "one-guy-immediately-zipping-behind-you-well-out-of-your-field-of-vision" trick.

yea is like alot of my friends and myself think the PvP mechanic shouldn't be in PvE to start with, because alot of the ppl dont even do PvP so they dont know how that stuff works.

not to mention applied to NPC it becomes unfair to say a "casual" player who isnt a hardcore player of this game, and TBH the unfair system the NPC's have is game breaking to them. B/c it prevents them from moving forward in the game.

+1 since fixing these broken mechanics is beyond current exobyte technology,PLEASE REMOVE THEM.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, get rid of them. you cant make it a fair system.

Another thing I noticed the other day is blocking mid combo.

If I am attacking an NPC and I am at the lunge part the NPC can block and counter me. Sure, fine, makes sense. However, if I block before the NPC is about to do the lunge part they will not always be countered.

Also, melee attacks that have a CC affect seem to precede the counter system. I've noticed this with brawling type npcs being able to stun me and knock me down even though I am blocking.

If the devs really think these are working as intended it just reinforces my belief that they don't really play this game.

How bout the Yellow Lanterns in Assault and Battery, though? Just fly off the handle with that staff combo, I'll block. Still block. Yup … still blocking. Blocking. You're really going ham there, aren't you? Blocking. Blocking annnnnnnd-I'm dead.

I had a thought about that because tanks can counter them. The Dom CC requirement for the raid might be a factor. It could also just be bad programming like the rest of these mechanics. Either way, I hear ya comrade.

Not a single comment from the devs. Are they embarassed?

Yes, it's like some NPCs have the power to undo or ignore your blocks at will. You'll be blocking, they hit you, and start juggling you - even if you have attached a clamp to your block button. I'm not talking about block breaking - that would put you on your back and make the characteristic sound. So you try to reapply the block, but by doing that you're vulnerable again because you have to let off the button to re-press it. And you still fail. That's not only very frustrating, it's kind of embarrassing in group content.

And I don't know if everyone's read the news lately, but a recent study has shown that gamers are more prone to feelings of anger and aggression after playing because of frustration with gameplay mechanics rather than violent content. The devs might want to take our concerns here a bit more seriously in light of that - not because anyone's going to do anything crazy, but because angry, frustrated players are just plain bad for business.