Congratulations On Nerfing TOTDe into the ground.

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by Luke©, Oct 28, 2021.

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  1. Mr.W Well-Known Player

    They do test to an extent but i think It is nice they do give their customers a voice too b/c they do want us to enjoy the majority of the game.

    I'm a little confused on your overall stance, & there's some things I agree with & some things I some what disagree with. In your first post you said outside of those special groups elites are way to difficult & in most cases not the right way. In your 2nd post you said you felt elites were overall easy. I'm not pointing contradictions i just can't make an adequate reply until I know your overall stance.
    • Like x 1
  2. Proxystar #Perception

    The reality is, they are giving up their free time and that free time is going to amount to those individuals testing the game in a manner that directly correlates to their own live play styles.

    They're naturally checking to see how they'll subjectively cope or experience the new content, unfortunately the type of players testing are usually "sweaty top end min maxers" and only them, the more casual or even middle ground casual elites aren't bothering to test, because they're simply not invested to the extent where they want to give up their free time for a video game and rightfully so none of us players should be expected to do so; Quality Assurance is firmly Daybreak's responsibility.

    This approach however, unfortunately results in a particular play style (absolute max) such as gadgets DPS, rage tanking etc, being disproportionately represented in feedback and even those players free time is limited, so they're only going to test what they want, even if they are more than capable of checking other powers and variations.

    This is why Daybreak shouldn't rely on a small group of player testers because it's really not reliable data, it's indicative at best but they really need to as a dev team be a bit more conscious at times of these biases within any feedback, they also in my opinion need to be a bit more conscious of imbalances within the games power classes. If all the players in a group for example are gadgets prec users, it shouldn't come as a surprise to them that the DPS is going to be stronger than that present within a more random group once the content goes live, unfortunately this doesn't seem to get picked up until it goes live, hence nerfs like this, because its at that point a more wider reaction is obtained.

    Unfortunately for everyone history continues within this game to somewhat repeat itself because it's always the same groups of players testing, always testing with the same builds and powers and the same mistake regarding the biases this creates continues to go unnoticed :)

    If they don't want to fix the balance issues within the powers, that's fine, balance can be achieved through slight imbalances, but it becomes a mistake when you balance the game around an expectation players only play to those imbalances in every scenario, content has to be friendly enough for example that it doesn't favor a rage tank over an ice tank to the extent where it say pushes that ice player into playing DPS or worse yet, changing powers to rage, that isn't really acceptable game design.
    • Like x 4
  3. Mr.W Well-Known Player

    I get where you're coming from but follow me here. Idk if anyone remembers, but during pre-revamp there was a glitch the where the walk in to the oa under siege mission was accessible on live before it was ready to be released from test.

    Why not propose to have special zones created on live to test with feats disabled so each person can play their best natively & give a wider range of data.
  4. Tiffany6223 Loyal Player

    Sadly, this is an established trend amongst software companies now; having those who are fans of the software or the Brand do the testing for free before release to the general public. Microsoft does this heavily, it's the whole point of the Insider Program.

    I think these companies should have a dedicated group of EMPLOYEES who do nothing but TEST and RE-TEST their software before release to the public instead of having just a niche group of people (who may or may not have their own agendas) to do the testing. This isn't to say their feedback isn't important because it is, they can identify a feature(s) that doesn't appeal to their customer base or discover real world bugs that internal testing didn't catch. I use the example of Microsoft because we did a case study on them back in college in regards to Windows 8 / XBOX One.
    • Like x 4
  5. Proxystar #Perception

    I'm not sure what you're asking? You're asking for a test arena on live? I'm not sure what the point of that is...

    If you've gone as far as doing that, you've all but already released the content, you may as well at that point just release it to the wild and then balance it around the inevitable feedback, which is what's kind of already happening?
    • Like x 1
  6. Proxystar #Perception

    Thing too is that the testing groups have almost perversely so become so obsessed with testing "difficulty balance", the actual bugs and other issues with content go all but unchecked, while all they worry about is whether or not Deathstroke hits hard enough or has enough HP :D
    • Like x 3
  7. Tiffany6223 Loyal Player

    What does Hewlett Packard have to do with it? Joking Joking :D
  8. Mr.W Well-Known Player

    I mean like how some games have a one day beta session but given the nature of dc maybe have ppl sign up their group or get randomly placed to get 1 or 2 hrs of early access & they can write their feedback for on a survey doc just to get a wider view/play styles & more ppl to notice glitches, lag, etc. Or do you feel going in that direction still defeats the purpose. Genuinely curious
  9. Qwantum Abyss Loyal Player

    Rite, i see an sry for confusion. I think elites are far too hard for most is what i was sayin. Then when speaking for myself personally i hink they are easy but only when u have a cooperative and cohesive group that communicates.
    The overal point is the ones cryin its far too easy are the same ones that stack the best possible group of their elite friends and ntentionally make it as easy as possible. Of course its too easy when you make it so.
    My suggestion to them is to come outside their super elitist group and start helping the community get better an if they did, t wouldnt be so easy anymore lol.
    Its like racing a civic in your ferrarri then cryin how easy the race was….. ya think?
    • Like x 2
  10. NotMeMaybe Active Player

    After all this time seeing you on this forum, i’m not sure ont day you will realize i have absolutely zero but literally 0,000000% excitment gong into a raid that is not challenging, that doesnt push me into my limits. Do i play everyday all kind of content yes everyday. SO IMAGINE the disappointment when a new dlc Raid is just boring and not hard enough, some endgame players just quit the game after a week, simple concept too hard to understand for some including you sadly, not an attack, just a fact you just don’t understand then call people elitists.

    There is event difficulty for new players, normal for casuals, elite for a bit more advanced players, WHY NOT a HARDER difficulty for those who prefer it very difficult? That’s certainly not our « community manager that will send such a long time request to the devs »

    Do i want an harder difficulty than elite yes that’s all I want, will you Proxystar understand that and the few others in this forum like Yas hipollita or Sammi etc haha absolutely not, absolutely pointless and hopeless to try to make you understand such a simple concept and idea, better to ask for elite raids to be brain dead and too easy while you already have 100% of the game avalaible in normal difficulty isn’t it smart smart.

    So yes when you test an elite raid are the bosses hit hard enough and is the raid hard yes these are some of the most important factors.
  11. Mr.W Well-Known Player

    Ah no worries, I can see your points & yes effective communication can make a huge difference. Umm idk i feel like most properly balanced elites with middle ground players is manageable & becomes less hectic the more familiar we are with them but I can't outright call it easy. I feel like that can vary depending on what role you are & powerset for that role. One example of this was when titans dlc was new. Pre-buff & before more helpful artifacts terra's gas phase which applied a health & healing debuff on players that created a dramatically different experience for a fire tank whos all health and healing vs an ice or earth who's based off defense and shields/ defense & mitigation.
    • Like x 1
  12. Proxystar #Perception

    it sounds like you're possibly just creating a test environment within the live server, I don't really have an issue with it, I mean previously this sort of thing was probably actually done in a way when they gave members advanced access to a DLC.

    Those players then give feedback and it allows the devs to hotfix before releasing it to the wider audience, with the game now being free its difficult to see quite how that type of thing would work.

    You could of course still do it that way and provide it as a membership perk where the members get a say week of earlier access in return for feedback, trouble though is what happens if things are broken and players take advantage of it.

    Do you reset everyone? it comes with a list of potential problems despite any potential benefit it might provide.
    • Like x 3
  13. Mr.W Well-Known Player

    Hmmm, I see your point there. I'll have to ponder a bit more on it, but feel free to chim in any solutions as they come lol.

    Maybe apply "replica" to feats and currency of this sort of test environment so its just a title feat & the the "replica" currency can only buy replica gear thats disabled upon leaving the testing zone?
    • Like x 1
  14. Proxystar #Perception

    Elitism is more an attitude that needs to be called out when it becomes less than productive, some people are constantly elitist, some people are sometimes elitist, some people are never, it's about the behavior, not the person, calling people elitist or calling out elitism wasn't intended to cause offense, but it does need to be called out :)

    I understand exactly what you're saying and I entirely sympathize with your desire for more difficult content, the part however you don't seem to ever understand, despite the irony of alleging I lack the understanding, is that difficulty is entirely subjective.

    The developers are stuck balancing the game across a broader number of players than yourself and even your direct peers, that means despite the fact you consider your satisfaction to be the most deserving it simply isn't and neither is mine.

    There's always people they can't please, that's just the reality, look at this nerf for example, initially they made it super difficult, you were pleased, then they realised the 10 other people they were trying to please to your right were displeased, so they nerfed it to make at least 5 more of those people to your right more pleased...

    The reason - they're giving the devs money as well and their unhappiness matters, so as you say content wasn't hard so "some end game players quit", the devs are balancing that very thing against other players quitting because the content is "too hard".

    This is really basic stuff and is simply the unfortunate reality you've found yourself in where the skill you possess will probably never be entirely satisfied because of competing forces.

    I'm not saying by any means I wish dissatisfaction upon you, if there was a way to give it to you, I'd be absolutely open to it. :)

    Perhaps the difficulty slider for example can be worked on where that critical level for example is so hard even you find your challenge ;)

    edit - the competing force however comes when that slider isn't used because there's only one difficulty setting, people are going to have to accept the content isn't going to give them everything they want, look at the anniversary event for example, you can't make that super hard because its supposed to be a celebration event, it's for everyone and gating that to an extreme doesn't suit its purpose. Unless of course players are prepared to accept zero additional reward and perhaps just request the setting to make it a challenge.
    • Like x 8
  15. Mr.W Well-Known Player

    Definitely with you & another poster on this one that the 5 tier system for elites may be the best way to bring unity to this divided topic
    • Like x 1
  16. Proxystar #Perception

    Well the option could of course just be an early release with all feats and rewards deactivated for the first week, so its just the content being run for the sake of running it :)
    • Like x 4
  17. AV Loyal Player

    Should also be noted that looking for extreme difficulty in a modern MMO isn't really gonna work out for people... that's just not the genre/demo anymore... and when it was the genre, og MMOs were only "hard" insomuch that the time commitment and grind were absolutely insane and they could get away with making life-like "we don't gaf if we completely waste your time if you fail at something because that's the harsh reality of this world we created... p.s. there's not enough competition that we have to worry about the players who can't hack it in here. Git gud or ******* die. Try not to wet yourself, n00b!" decisions. This isn't the 2000s anymore and even the games from that era that were extremely brutal underwent major tonal shifts to survive. Eg FFXI went from being extremely brutal such that even just extreme low-level leveling, reaching new leveling areas for the first time in one piece, and completing the most basic of quests was a serious test of skill to a lowest common denominator fluff-fest in the late 2000s and early 2010s. That DCUO is the way it is now is something of a miracle. The market is way too saturated for companies to ignore the lowest common denominator and any 99th-100th percentile player needs to understand that, not campaign for changes that will hurt/destroy the game in the long run.

    If a player wants hard content, they should be asking for it in 1-4-man format, not 8-man. Alternatively they could ask for the death limit to be removed, since it severely restricts how nasty they can make a boss. There really aren't many ways to do large group content with a death limit that isn't either a too-easy tank & spank or a paint-by-numbers Simon Says cheez-a-ganza where skill is meaningless and all that matters is memorizing mechanics. The more people involved, the more "challenge" devolves into those categories. Yeah, there are annoying feats, but even they devolve into those two categories to some degree, eg. Future Perfectionist is predominately just memorizing mechanics combined with "hope one person doesn't ruin it for everyone" + "hope these stellar servers don't stutter and **** us" RNG.

    The hardest thing they can reasonably do is have mechanics that boil down to individual responsibility, like they have been in all of the raids recently, where the challenge for elitists outside of feats is predominately in regards to personal performance. The challenge is to consistently be the goat. Wtf do some people care if other people can beat the same thing if they can't beat it as well, as fast, or as consistently? What does a goat care if they never get outperformed? If a player's #1 challenge isn't already their own personal "ghost car," pushing the envelope every time they run anything no matter what it is, making stuff tankier, grindier, or less accessible to the playerbase at large isn't gonna matter for long. I really don't understand where the disconnect is. It's especially frustrating when, when there is something challenging, some elitists will find a cheese/exploit/workaround to make it not a challenge... or, if a blatant power exploit exists like Nature's Roar counting every players Poison stacks, they'll do that.... or run macros. Like... /ConfusedJackieChan. Just treat it like a team sport and do your best every time. The most challenging thing they could have done would have been to leave the 1-death limit in last SM round (only 1-2 groups could have done it)... that would have shut down the "screw mastering the bosses let's just die our way to victory" approach.

    If someone wants to be personally challenged they should just always be doing their best and improving. It's a major attitude issue. If that's still not someone's cup of tea, they probably wanna find themselves one of the many single-player games that are specifically designed to provide extreme, hair-pulling, overtuned challenges (I can recommend a bunch) or games with extreme achivements (can recommend a bunch there).... or a competitive game... but asking for stuff to be subjectively "hard" beyond a reasonable point in 8-man PvE in a modern MMO is a bit goofy. MMOs are not "hard" and, with a 1-death limit in elite, it's pretty much impossible for them to make any new content that's realistically challenging without being "this is a mechanic memorization test" stacked with a "we made it super tanky so y'all just have to take the test longer without screwing up."

    If people wanna be mad at someone/something about that harsh reality, they should be mad at WoW.

    Edit: Also, nobody gaf about epeen anymore. It's just not a thing. This isn't an old MMO where you can have an item that's worth more than your gd mortgage, or achieve something that took 100 people years of grueling challenge to complete so one player could have a OP shiny. We don't have ow bosses that take irl days to beat. There is zero reason for content to be designed to make it as huge of a pain in the *** as possible for as many people as possible anymore and doing that just elicits "this isn't worth our time" responses from most people. I have, quite literally, more games in my Steam Library and more books in my backlog than I can reasonably hope to get through before I die and I'm not even old and that's not even factoring w/e comes out in the next 60 or so years. Devs need to be very conscious of balancing the juice with the squeeze because we all have effectively unlimited options. The entertainment market is more saturated than it ever has been in human history.
    • Like x 11
  18. Kimone Luthor Genetech Clone

    while you are technically correct - which is the best kind of correct - there sure do be a lot of folks out there working to make it seem like that's still a thing. so even if that's NOT the target audience any more (and it's not, and I grew up in an arcade during the CAPCOM era so I know a couple things about the Venn Diagram overlap between obsessive competitive nature and electronic entertainment, and even I'm saying that's unhealthy) good luck explaining that to them.
    • Like x 4
  19. Proxystar #Perception

    Good post, thanks for the read :)
    • Like x 1
  20. Illumin411 Loyal Player

    Having actual employees doing proper play testing probably doesn't realistically fit in their budget BUT would could (and should) be feasible is to outsource it to 3rd party professional game testing contracting companies. While contract testers might be lacking in in-depth and long term familiarity of the game, they would theoretically be of a professional quality and standards, experienced in play testing in general and wouldn't be testing through a biased lense of personal gain or application. And it's not like the game is radically different from others anyway.

    I'm like 91% sure that 3rd party contracted video game play testing companies are a thing that exists. If not, I know what my next business venture just might be.
    • Like x 2
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