Class Tips: Controlling

Discussion in 'Oracle’s Database (Guides)' started by drzdonn, Feb 21, 2013.

  1. drzdonn Well-Known Player

    I will not say much as you are talking to Khiron but, once again your post shows that did not read. 2. you do not bother to listen to what anyone else is saying because you are too concerned with your own words, your basically having a conversation with yourself dude.
  2. drzdonn Well-Known Player

    The reason why I use words like "core" and "main" is because this is something that should never or really very rarely (unless you are completely OP for the instance you are in) take a back seat to CC, Debuffs, etc. Let's say you are a full T3 group going into gates for the very first time, it is true that the trollers will be doing it all, because at that point in the game it is expected that we know how to manage power/cc/debuffs. But if for some reason there is a troller who just lacks the experience, because of whatever reason, maybe he was carried through the lower instance by friends. What will be the reason if any that he gets yelled at for? Lack of power. Not missing debuffs or enough ads being cc. What does this guide help new people learn to do, or remind some older players to do? Give power. There are other guides like Battery's, that do an awesome job going into basically everything that a troller can do. This guide, as the name suggest (Class Tips) is a hint, a tip, or reminder to new and old trollers to give power. I am sorry if any felt offended like "who is this guy telling me to give power, i know my class, i'm full T4" but next time you are in a raid pay close attention to your group's power, and judge yourself on how well you (and if your in a raid your partner troll) are able to keep everyone at a comfortable 50/80% of their power bar. And please do not ever think yourself so high and mighty that you do not even have to ask the other troller what their vit is. Not asking, is purely and simply bad trolling. Not to mention a really bad practice in an MMO.
  3. drzdonn Well-Known Player

    The main reason why I use such strong words that emphasize the importance of giving power is for a few reasons:

    1) troll class is the only class that can effectively recharge the groups power bar
    2) i believe it is smart gaming to focus our efforts in the one aspect of our class that is unique to us (all classes can damage, DPS do it best, and if the Tank is doing his job, CC will rarely be needed) and I do give a good chunk of the post to debuffs, nobody can say I neglect debuffs.
    3) the post, if read from start to fninsh, made it clear that giving power should be the one thing that trollers should have on lock down. I have met far too many trollers (new and old) who either do not understand PoT mechanics, or simply refuse to use their power dumps when they are sitting on a full blue bar with over half the team at 50% or less power. Most of the trollers on DC are awesome and know and play their role, but there are too many who see what high Tier trollers are doing, and copy that behavior even though they lack the experience and gear to do that. "That" being CC, Debuffs, and damage oriented behavior.
  4. drzdonn Well-Known Player

    Hey, hey hey...I like the name I choose for my guide. People just over look it and assume that it is a "everything you need to know about everything there is to know"... it is a class TIP..a hint..a reminder.. a nudge saying "hey, you sure you doing this, if not, here is how?". Because let's face it, easy content, hard content, other content...when you are in a group, and the troller does a bad job at keeping the group's power bar up, that is the troller's fault. Sure there may be one or two people here and there who are just power crazy and go through it like hot knife through butter, but most people do not, and it is a trollers job to tell those power hungry people to ease up. I have told healers, and dps, "hey, you are over healing" or "your using to much power", thats part of my job, i can tell, and in more experienced groups everyone else will agree if you point out that someone is using too much power and they will correct themselves. so, i think my guide deserves it's name, because giving power is not something only fresh trolls need to be good at, it is something all trolls need to be masters at.
  5. drzdonn Well-Known Player

    Yea, that is true, forum discussions do tend to favor hypothetical possibilities but I do not think that it is bad thing that trollers learn to give power efficiently in the basic way before they dive into the hit counters, and trinkets, etc. The power dump move is being down played to the point of "emergencies only" but it is not that type of move. Like trolls, healers do have their "oh boy" emergency heal moves, but unlike trolls the also have moves that mitigate "medium range" damage, and they have a low HoT move that is usually used to set up their bigger heals. We as trolls only have PoT and power dump. Sure in a group that is experienced we wont need to use the power dump that often but that is not most groups. It needs to be used more frequently by most of the trolls I have seen when I pug. I have actually had to send tells because it was unclear if they could hear chat or not, telling them to use their debuffs less, use their CCs less, attack less and use the power dump more because the group was suffering. Telling controllers that their power dump move is going to be the move used the most out of their entire load out is not something a lot of people I play with, myself included think is hypothetical or even exaggerated.
  6. drzdonn Well-Known Player

    It's funny because I do read and re-read my guide once in a while after having posted it and if I were new, I would go in the game with the understanding that my class, the controller class, is the only class that can effectively manipulate the power bar of the entire group. I would have finished reading knowing that I should aspire to keep everyone's power bar as high as I can. And I would also have in the back of my mind to, once I feel comfortable in my ability to maintain everyone's power up, come back, and find some other guides because this guide only slightly mentions CC/Debuffs but it mentioned it enough to wet my appetite for that aspect of my role and I now want to learn more of what my role can do. And for all the older trollers, who all like to brag about being T4 and soloing this and that, I would say, be sure not to forget your roots. The main reason troll gear has so much Vit, the main reason why the default is to have 2 trolls in a raid group, the main reason why every single troll has a move on their load out that 1)gives power over time to the group and 2) restores power to the 3 most fatigued group members, that reason being that our main job is to give power..
  7. drzdonn Well-Known Player

    Groups should rely on a healer for health just as they rely on a troller for power. If the group is not doing anything silly, like the tank not blocking, the DPS putting themselves in harms way, etc, and people are being KOd without being one shot KOd , then the healer is doing something wrong, which is not healing. We rightfully expect healers to heal, just as we rightfully expect trollers to give power, it is what our roles specialize in, it is what the people playing those characters should have learned and mastered. It is OK to do more then that but only if that core aspect of your role does not need to be played. A troller should not be doing CC or debuffs if the party is in need of power, that stuff should always take a side seat to maintaining the group's power because we are the only role that can give power outside of SCs.
  8. SlayingDaimon New Player

    I can tell you put a lot of effort into this guide and although I disagree on multiple points I'm going to try to be constructive.

    The first issue is the formatting. There are multiple sections containing more than one paragraph. While I realize this is probably done as an effort to prevent bleed over, you do use color coded sections to distinguish between them. If you would simply press enter whenever a different topic is addressed in these sections it would be better structured and achieve the desired effect.

    The next issue is reasoning. You keep stating that the central duty of a controller is to give out power and reiterate "SPAM THE POWER" often through the post. There are times when you state that when you have to choose between doing crowd control, debuffing or doing a power transfer, you should always do the power transfer. The reasoning implied that nothing you could do would be important enough justify not doing so.

    While you mention that tanks dislike controllers who crowd control the reason is that properly geared controllers ability to inhibit actions vastly outweighs the effectiveness of tanks abilities. Additionally you can use you weapons control effects to prevent it from interfering with tank powers. This can be used to save teammates by preventing the damage in the first place. Choosing to save a teammate vs dumping power is the right course of action in my book, especially if they will be receiving the power and dieing right after.

    You also recommend using fast attacking range weapons in in order to deal damage and regenerate power. Sore has provided you with a link and formula (Sore's great about that sort of thing) that covers the weapons power regeneration rate and an explanation on how power is returned through them. I would recommend you at least mentioning the tiers and their respective colors (t1 white, t2 blue, t3 orange, t4 yellow) and that if they see the color change its not necessary to continue unless going for the next tier.

    If you want to expand on that there are a number of weapons that can get to the tiers quickly. Rifle's surprise volley, hand blast pulse beam and dual pistols jump shot all do a fantastic job at getting the hit counter up and running. For each of these you can follow a transfer and spam that move until it hits blue/orange and transfer before the power transfer is off of cool down.

    Last thing I'll bother with is you hardly touch on survival. Simply having the ability to enter movement mode for either flight or acrobats will allow you to move quickly and avoid enemy attacks and that wasn't addressed at all. You can not expect the tank or healer to be perfect or skilled enough to cover any mistakes you may make. Shields, self heals, and evasion are the primary tools available to controllers to stay alive and that should be every players main priority because once they are down and out, they're going to preform worse and won't be contributing at all.
  9. drzdonn Well-Known Player

    The formatting is a work in progress, and although it may make it hard to read, that is no excuse to give up on it or say it is as bad as some people have.

    The guide, as I stated in the it, assumes the reader has working knowledge of the game and roles, I stated in the guide that it will cover the basics of the troller class. Things like survival and common sense things like positioning, field awareness, familiarization with instances do not have a place in this guide. I purposely put the "brief about me" and "purpose of this guide" at the end of the guide because the minute that I started getting comments that were nothing but negative I automatically knew that the person did not even bother reading through to the end, which means that their comments lost all weight, I reply to their comments out of politeness. In fact, I just made that part of the guide bigger because everyone is apparently skipping it. The wording in those sections however has not been changed since original posting.

    I am sorry but saying that a troller will be able to save another player via CC is unrealistic, do you people have some sort of future instant replay machine that is showing you exactly which ad is going to KO which party member so that you can CC or stun that enemy at the right time? I am not saying that a CC or stun does not save an ally once in a while but that is not because the troller did the CC/Stun with the mindset of saving that particular person from that particular ad at that particular time, it was because that troller just happened to intersect that ad's attack with his or her CC or stun, right place, right time, and if people think otherwise they are kidding themselves. The danger comes from, and this is becoming way too common, when the troller is using so much power on CC and Stuns that the groups starts to run dry on power, that is why I place such an emphasis on giving power, and remind players both new and old that a Stun or CC is no substitute for a proper heal from a healer, pull from a tank, or burn from a DPS.

    I also made it clear that trollers are the most agile class while in combat in the game, repeating a few times the our power dump move allows us to move around, giving us the ability to evade attacks, pick up allies, hit nodes, etc. Something like activating your movement mode is something taught in the tutorial and does not belong in the guide. The guide is here to show new players the basics of giving power, and to remind older players that giving power is the MAIN duty of their role.

    When it comes to hit counters and other slightly more advanced sides of them game and role, I will now put in parenthesis that the reader should look at other guides to go more in depth for that particular subject.
  10. TheDark Devoted Player

    You didn't understand anything I said. Below t4 content it is possible to run instances without a DPS or tank. More without a tank. You can without the other 2 roles but in weak PUG it's less likely.

    I didn't say there would be a 5 minute gap between a group with DPS and without. I said with a good group ( as in all roles) will finish it just as fast or within 5 minutes between a group with good/experienced controllers who can balance CC and controllers who just spam the instant power heal.

    Like I said Vit doesn't feed the group power. Not directly. If you understand that you'd realize its pointless to even ask for it. Asking or looking for PoT ticks makes you look smarter. Yes Vit determines your PoT tick but the way it scales isn't that great.

    If the controllers keep the PoT up, green bolt, the whole raid they did their job. Like I said the instant power transfer is there to assist.

    The few players who understand that both play styles can be balanced will just dismiss your thread. Especially since it seems you're telling everyone our main job is to spam the power transfer. Our main job is to keep PoT up. You dug a whole for yourself when you put emphasis on one playstyle and objective of the role. Stop getting emotional because people disagree with you. We just know there's another way to go about and be just as effective if players understand how to do it.
    • Like x 1
  11. Sylar-Man New Player

    BIG WALL OF TEXT THAT i AM NOT READING. Learn to separate your thoughts so that your post are actually readable
  12. Sylar-Man New Player

    Im actually having a conversation with the person I quoted. You on the other hand are having a conversation with nobody. Not even yourself
  13. SlayingDaimon New Player

    You can crowd control with your weapons attacks and doing so will cost you a second or two but no power. Battery's guide list multiple control effects and what they do. In my opinion knock down, stuns and knock back are the most important ones to have and are the most common weapons abilities.When you are raiding you should be able to tell which player/players are the most reckless in or after the first engagement.

    When I mentioned entering movement mode I was referring to back flip attack and swoop attack removing the speed penalty from combat making it easier to dodge incoming fire, move to an ally, and reach objectives or cover when necessary. None of that was covered in the tutorial mission.

    Another thing to touch up on is the fact that controllers are the rarest role in the game. This isn't due to people not playing those power sets but is due to the unneeded stress and drama certain players subject controllers to. When you are not having fun the game seems more like a job that you have to pay to do and controllers don't get to have much fun spamming 1 or 2 powers and getting yelled at for 10 - 30 minutes.

    Beyond those suggestions I will stay out of this guide.
    • Like x 1
  14. Sylar-Man New Player

    I completely agree. In FOS3 when the "white hands" (Forgot the exact name of the NPC) come out and someone is not paying attention I quickly use trick shot to pop them up in the air or if the DPS in the raid are Melee DPS as soon as they lunge over there to them I'll knock the "White hands" up in the air so that my teammates don't take any damage.

    I've run into many HL, Gadget, and Mental DPS who used to be controllers but are now DPS because they were no longer having fun playing the game because other people wanted them to just spam power transfers and not do much else.
  15. drzdonn Well-Known Player

    Yea, back to that same old argument, if u have nothing better to say then you are just tired and have lost the debate.
  16. drzdonn Well-Known Player

    Yea, trying to use the point I made because you are incapable of making one yourself, you win, not.
  17. Sylar-Man New Player

    I wasn't debating with you. You have your view on it and thats fine. I just said that its not the only way of playing the role. I think we both agreed on that. I don't know what you're debating but have fun doing it
  18. Sylar-Man New Player

    You didn't make a point though. Try again sir.
  19. drzdonn Well-Known Player

    When people say that if a troller puts out a PoT, there job as far as power goes has been completed is worse advice then telling a troller to spam the power dump. The controller class is the only class in the game that can give power outside of SCs. What people seem to not understand and disagree with me on is the frequency of when to use the power dump.The common conception is that it is an "emergency use only" power out move, and it is not. The power dump should be used frequently enough that everybody's power during an instance is always kept at a minimum of around 50% and the trollers should aim to keep everybody's power bar at about 80% to have a fun, easy, and quick completion of an instance. To accomplish this the power dump is going to be needed to be used a lot more then for emergency times only. I am not putting emphasis on one play style (Read the guide and it will be obvious) I am putting emphasis on something that is required of all trollers in DCUO, giving out power is not optional for controllers. Without power, without trollers, an instance with people who are not completely OP for that mission will go nowhere.

    Tanks who do their job, will have aggro on them basically throughout the whole instance, which means constant incoming damage, they have to block to survive, which means they can not build weapon combos to replenish their own power, trollers need to give them the power to do their role.

    Healers will constantly be needing to cast heals to heal the tank and any damage the party takes, which means they will have a hard time building past a T1 or T2 weapon combo, it is the trollers job to make sure the healer has enough power to heal because in the time it takes for a healer to build up the combo and actually get the power needed to cast the heals, the party will have wiped.

    The best way to CC a mob, is by killing them. If you have to choose between a CC or stunned mob or a dead mob, you go with the dead mob. No role in the game is more efficient at destroying mobs then a Damage class. If the DPS is precision based, they will need power to continuously keep their 50 or 60% damage modifier. If they are might based, they will need more power then they can regenerate on their own to go through their rotation and be effective at their role.

    I will repeat myself again, since people still like to comment without reading the guide and just jumping on band wagons, the guide is not saying that trollers should do nothing but give power, it is saying that the job of restoring power is one that falls primarily on the troller and therefore should always be the MAIN concern of the troller. A troller can not solo gates no matter how good their CCs and Debuff rotations are. CCs and debuffs help the party complete a raid but trollers top priority is maintaining the groups power at reasonably high levels so that everyone can play their roles efficiently.

    I am using common sense, logic and facts when I reply to comments, people like to say I am "emotional" as an excuse to dismiss what I am saying because it makes sense but they do not want to listen.
  20. drzdonn Well-Known Player

    People seem to jump to the conclusion that when a group complains about power that it is the groups' fault and not the troller. But the truth remains that there are too many trollers who do a poor job at group power manipulation. Giving power is a unqiue trait of controllers, it is a crucial ability that all trollers need to be efficient at in order for group instances to be completed. Telling trollers that they have to focus on CCs and Debuffs first and only worry about giving power when they group is running dry is foolish. Like healers and health bars, trollers should not allow the power bars to fall below 50% percent and aim to keep the at 80% or higher if possible. This guide said from the get go, "basics of controlling", the basic, number 1 job of a troller is to give power. If you are bad at giving and maintaining power is it a good idea to go of and CC or debuff?

    And you mention weapon attacks that allow roles to go into movement mode, this is not the guide for that. Like other people have mentioned there are other guides that list a bunch of little tricks that can help people do their jobs in the game. Like the guide said from day one, this is teaching and reminding trolls of the basics, and the one basic thing that is most expected of all trolls, is needed of all trolls is to be good at keeping up power. This guide shows the basic way of doing that.