Buff controllers against healers

So after following this thread and seeing it devolve into yet another "NOOBL2READ" discussion, I wanted to add a more empirical post that will hopefully help get things back on track.

I respec'd one of my alts (a character I've hardly played since Last Laugh) into Quantam and ran the night as a troller. I am not claiming to be some sort of 'pro' and my tests as it were are as a new troller. Here is what I offer to the conversation. I hope you enjoy the watch and please comment.



--YZ

Here's what I offer Yziah, after 3 years or whatever it's been;

People are going to complain till this game dies on their counter classes.
If they took away everything a healer could do when debuffed, they would still complain you could use a trinket. They take away the trinket, they would complain about your supercharges. It will just never end.

Doesn't matter what you show them, how wrong you prove them with evidence.

Keep fighting the good fight, but this will never change. Doesn't matter what you do.

Cheers,

How is that weaker when they lose a flat percentage though? Whether they have 1000 in a stat or 2000 they'll still be at at 93% efficiency after taking the 7% debuff. Having the same efficiency doesn't mean our debuffs are getting weaker.

If you would want the person with 2000 in a stat to have the same 930 in a stat that they were left with when they only had 1000, that would require increasing the debuff from 7% to 48.5%. That would also mean that our target would then be operating at only a little over half effeciency, meaning our debuff is instead drastically buffed.

As for the damage part, I don't believe it's a fair comparison to compare players to NPCs. After all, being able to melt NPCs fast is always considered a good thing, while making it easy to beat other players will only discourage people from playing. Having weapons with more damage more than likely would hurt PvP more than it would help.

I do wish we had more debuffs that would hit a wider range of stats though. That way, we would be able to debuff people's Health as well as their Toughness. Doing this would also make it more interesting when multiple Controllers run together since they can plan for who gets to debuff which stat, rather than everyone only debuffing the same three.

No!
We healers have a hard enough time with controllers.. if you suck and cannot take out your "counter role", don't take it out on the rest of us!.. That's like me complaining and asking that we healers need to be "buffed" against Tanks.....

I can count on 1 hand how many times I have lost to a tank (in tank role) in a 1v1.

@Yallandar

All the decent leagues have their PvP gear already. All that's left are pugs. That's like Michael Phelps winning a gold medal at the special Olympics.

@Gwalir

This is how we are getting weaker. Ok so our debuff removes the exact same percentage as the previous set, fine. However, that does not change the fact that our opponents are still becoming stronger. They are getting more life, more damage, etc. If they could handle it before, they can do it again the next time with ease because now they have more health, more toughness, to pad their mistakes with. There is a reason why Controllers mostly wear their DPS gear, and that is simply the Controller gear is useless when you look at it stats.

We still have the least health and damage mitigation out of all the roles in the game. This needs to be adjusted somehow along with the way Healers, with proper know how, can ignore our heal debuffs. That needs to be addressed as well. Lastly, Healers abilities need to either be brought in line with Tanks and Controllers when going up against their counter role. They either need to be nullified we like are, or we need to be brought up to par with a healers level of survival and our counters not being able to fully nullify us.

I appreciate the complement on my skill, thank you. It isn't often I am considered an olympian in anything .

I ran with a low SP, low gear, no mod (other than white mods) troller in a powerset I have like 1-2 days experience and was doing well. What I am trying to show is that it is a skill issue, not a gear, class, P2W, or whatever other excuse people are thinking up. This is why I'll be holding scrimmage matches open to all comers with the intent to help players improve. Despite what you want to believe there are a lot of good PVPers out there that either don't have a league or haven't been exposed to a more competitive level to really be great.

Regarding your issues with the healing debuff percentages--there really is no issue. You are overlooking the other stats that are also increasing at the same time as resto--precision, might, dominance (which increases troller/tank shields), and health just to name a few. There are players right now that have over 1000 precision and 2000 might in PVP gear. Their combo finishers are hitting upwards of 1200-2000--that isn't even including power damage. Also your example is incorrect because we lose 1/2 our resto AND our incoming healing is reduced additionally. The only one benefiting from our 1/2 resto heals are our teammates. If the troller has debuffed us we aren't even getting 1/2 potential.

There are a lot of good players out there and PVP leagues are STILL queuing because they PVP for FUN--not only gear. I made it clear I was queuing for 1's and 2's in the video, which seems to be the focus of this thread (counter role mechanics and 1 v 1.) Lairs and 2 v 2 would be the best place to highlight any imbalances I would think.

You've been on this "trollers are weak" train for awhile and at this point I just don't have anything else to say to you other than queue up. You're hardly ever in arenas past the gearing durations and I only see like 3-4 people from your league PVPing at any given time. When I do see you it is often followed up with, "that wasn't me my friend was using my account." So I say it again--YOU should queue up and get in some practice.

I don't want you to think I have any personal disdain for you, but the way you talk to people is despicable. All this "L2READNOOB" stuff you go on out is just a cover-up for the inability to have a rational conversation. Cut it out and just talk with people, provide ACTUAL counter points instead of repeating yourself over and over and maybe you'll gain more support. Seemed to work pretty well for the old Arranged Matchmaking thread you and Daemonic Visions posted.

Now regarding the other troller debuffs--I do think the damage debuff needs an increase (or at least a mod to increase the %'s.) Any role other than DPS isn't really being affected by 7% reduction--unless that number is a typo in which case the tool tip needs to be updated. Also trollers could use some white mods catered more closely to their tools. All of the current ones are build with survivability in mind--which lends towards healers and tanks moreso than trollers.

I wish you well and hope to have a productive conversation with you and everyone else here if possible.

--YZ

All the decent leagues have their PvP gear already. All that's left are pugs. That's like Michael Phelps winning a gold medal at the special Olympics.

I'm not sure I follow. The video Yziah posted was all lair battles, not him rolling around in an league pre-made stomping pugs. Was that comment not in response to his video?

it is when what you say is inherently wrong. you prove to me so I don't go searching for video that doesn't exist? play with decent pvpers is all you got huh? well, considering I have three sets of punchline (troller, dps and hybrid) I think I've done my fair share of pvp to see the results of matches. thanks for playin.

Here ya go:

That would prove our debuffs are weaker only if you ignore the fact that we are constantly increasing our stats as well. In the end, it comes down to us at 100% of our strength versus them at 93% of theirs, no matter what Tier we are on.

I will agree that Controller gear needs more relevant, and that the Controller vs Healer mechanics may need looked at. It's just the part about our debuffs getting weaker when it's the same percentage every time that I disagree on.

After all, it would require a major increase to take a T2 person back down to his T1 level, as I showed in an example earlier. Is that what you are saying you want, for our debuffs to get over a 500% increase?

Sorry but this video pretty much shows a scrub tank vs skilled(to a degree)troller who still had to fight hard.

heh, i'm surprised noone catched the ninja pvp troller change yet?
maybe i was hallucionating... quite possible... BUT, i was just in a 2v2 and it appears there has been a ninja change to debuffing healers.
i havent had a chance to test anything, but instead of the red debuff heart showing up just when i used a healing debuff it was applying with ANY POWER CAST?
just like tanks can strip troller shields with any power it appears now trollers are debuffing healers with ANY power.

honestly i have no idea if this is just some sort of messaging change, perhaps emphasizing the confidence bonus? or if it actually is a healing debuff applies with all troller casts now.

lol, well, unless i completely imagined this happening i am jus gonna sit back and wait for the healer QQ thread explosion sure to come... any minute now.
::grabs popcorn::
if true...this is gonna be good.

Been like that for a long time, any harmful power for any role activates the rps debuff and steals shields. A while back I was having a lot of trouble with healers in pvp and was wondering if my healing debuff was overwriting the rps debuff which also comes in the form of the red heart. They are supposed to compliment eachother from my knowledge, the rps debuff cutting a percentage of their resto and the healing debuff cutting a percentage of their healing in.

Actually any damaging attack cuts resto while the heal debuff cuts resto AND healing in. The icon doesn't always show up depending on what power/buffs the healer is using though the effect is present.

wow, great. You k.o'd some noobs, applause!
Now thats a big proof, that everything is in the right state at the moment. Thank you for this!

So the problem isn't controller power sets, it's playing against skilled players. Nerf skill, I guess.

Seeing a troller in cash gear and few SP beating tanks (no matter how skilled) proves it can be done if one outplays their opponent.

Where are the videos of controllers failing to kill a healer. If it's so rampant, there should be loads of evidence.

No more bloody nerfs on any class should be done. I am sick of the whining and complaining from unskilled hacks who want a free passs for playing a certain role and sucking terribly. Its not a healers fault you suck at being a controller and they don't need to be nerfed if you are still losing to healers that is because you out right suck. Especially if you are loosing to a SOrc healer seeing as they have been nerfed and broken the most. The only reason you think they need to be nerfed is because more skilled players beat the ever loving crap out of you because you fail at knowing your role. I am a Sorc healer and I have lost to Controllers that were skilled but when I run into a some high level unskilled char who can't play worth crap I should just let him win because he is a controller?? Heck no if you suck so bad and you can't beat my broken char who has been nerfed repetitively into the ground to the point it is pretty much useless its your own stinking fault. I wish MMO would just remove post like these immediately, no powerset needs any nerfing, and healers need to be fixed after being broken by all the freaking cry babies who cry foul. The only thing you should be reporting is bugs and exploits instead of crying because you got your butt handed to you.
Some of you people need to seriously grow a pair and stop whining so dang much. You sound like a bunch of spoiled rotten brats. I hope to God I run into you cry babies In GW2 so I can listen to your tears about thats not suppose to happen I am playing a certain role and my role should always win. Just go play rock paper scissors if thats what you want. why even have a fight. We should just have a random generator for you cry babies that just match roles randomly and when you get matched against your weaker role you automatically win. Good Lord you people make me sick. Grow the **** up already and stop crying nerf every time you fail at life.

@Kroye

What I meant was that he did not fight any skilled players that actually PvP well. Most of us already got our gear and stopped bashing these new players. Post a video of a 1v1 of him against Spart, or Chill's tanks, they are after all in your same league. Lets see how long that lasts. Or even Phenomenas tank Contra. Lets see how long his Controller lasts. Those 3 I mentioned are Tanks I have come across and know their clips well and how to properly debuff a Controller.

The matches he showed were clearly against under performing players. Again, all his video displayed was that he is good against sub par players. No different than winning a gold medal in the Olympics then showing up to the special Olympics to compete against others with disabilities. It means nothing.

@Yallander

I understand what you are trying to show people. However, if you are going to show anything like this, why not do it against an equally skilled player. Spartacus, Chill (if he's still ice), C0ntra, etc. That would have helped your argument a lot more if you could do that against them with a Controller that low in SP. Instead you showed us how well you do against people who do not understand the RPS system, or how debuffs work. Basically you fought against newer players for lack of a better word.

@Gwalir

I want whatever it takes to make all 3 roles even when going against their counter role. I understand our debuffs are the same, even so, it still does not change the fact that with each set of gear, the extra health, toughness, etc. makes our debuffs less relevant. Example, if a healer loses half their resto and has only 1000 hp they are in serious trouble. If that same healer then got 2000 health and lost half his resto, he just got more breathing room. The bottom line is our debuffs become less relevant because healers can make more mistakes than they could previously with the extra health and toughness.

Again, my main complaint/issue is that healers are the only role not completely nullified by the role that is supposed to counter them, while Healers completely strip Tanks of all shields and buffs, and Tanks completely strip Controllers of all shields and buffs. Healers are the only ones not stripped of what makes them healers, instead it is merely reduced.

How is fair that a Healer can stop a Tank from being a Tank, and Tank can stop a Controller from being a Controller, yet a Controller CANNOT stop a Healer from being a Healer? THIS is what really needs to be looked at. Either we all get merely reduced by our counters or we all get nullified. Also our debuff should effect all HoTs no matter when they are cast, as long as the red heart is placed on a healer.

All in due time. Ka Chow is just starting his adventures. As he gears and increases in rank I'm sure we'll see more well known names. If I could go toe to toe or even defeat Chill, Sparty, Godi, etc with my current gear and stats then it would mean that the mechanics are broken the other way (Trollers being OP and tanks/troller mechanic not enough.) As I've said before gear really only matters when it is against players of equal skill or lower skill in better gear. It was pretty clear in all of those fights I was the one at a gear disadvantage.

Sure there was some inexperience, but not enough to call them noobs. Many of the players have great potential and a few even understood weapon combos/clips and the little idiosyncrasies as well as I do.

So I no matter what anyone does many people in this thread just aren't willing to see this issue for what it is--a skill problem. Either your opponents have better tools (gear, sp, consumables, trinkets, and HT mods/trinkets) or they have better understanding of the combat system.