Dev Discussion Better Membership

Discussion in 'Developer Discussions' started by Mepps, Apr 29, 2021.

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  1. Proxystar #Perception

    I'm not accusing you of emotive hyperbole because of your points surrounding the membership benefits, despite the fact I disagree with your approach, I'm accusing you of the emotive hyperbole because of the irrelevant nonsense you bring in to the discussion when being confronted in the discussion.

    You earlier did it with Socrates where you started going on about your industry knowledge and experience and how he must lack that and this insight into the industry meant your opinion must carry more weight and his be automatically disregarded for that reason.

    You then, with me, brought up the issue of "I have been playing longer than you, therefore my opinion carries more weight and I couldn't possible be more casual". On top of that you then referred to me as "hun", given we're on absolutely no level of personal connection that term wasn't used in reference to me in endearment it was used to disrespect me and dismiss me, yet you accuse me of condescension; This is all emotive hyperbole because you're approaching the argument on a personal level.

    The reality is, it doesn't matter how long either of us have been playing, it doesn't matter what you do for a living, all that matters is that we play this game, however; it is important to note that we both play it differently, you're more casual, I'm less casual.

    Those play styles admittedly result in different desires, yours are clearly more cosmetic or include game features that would otherwise be free as well or a micro-transation; mine are more focused on advanced features of character progression.

    Taking your first post as an example though you want more powers, movement modes etc. Those are both examples of items that require extensive development time, if we're talking about new movement modes not just re-skins then the time is amplified to an event greater level with introducing a new power.

    Some of you players, obviously you to an extent as well, based on your request for it, seem a bit oblivious to the amount time, resources and effort that goes in to introducing a new power. It isn't just a case of creating animations and slapping them in the game, that's just a part of it. The powers also require extensive consideration surrounding balancing, testing, interaction with other powers, interactions with everything existing in the game ranging from content to artifacts, goes on.

    The introduction of this would obviously be appealing, but isn't particularly relevant to the membership package because it is already included (members get access to powers for free) The introduction of new powers is something better done outside of this review because it means it has the time to be done properly and the developers don't even have to "promise" they'll do it when the status quo can simply remain in that "we might release new powers some time in the future". That approach is far more sustainable than saying "we're going to give members exclusive new powers, don't know when, but we hope to do so soon".

    Movement modes sit in the same category, as does creating new weapons.

    Your idea surrounding the style manager is also in a similar vein, I agree that there should be and could be enhancements to the style tabs/manager but these aren't necessary to include in membership they're simply a UI QOL improvement.

    If we go as far as suggesting you "lock premium players out of style customization" and I think you've alluded to this even just above, I think that's a really bad idea and to use a real life example is one of the worst monetized options present in the likes of SWTOR, where everyone including members have to pay simply to change features of their characters, it's incredibly punitive in its approach, the premium players are already upset with the cash cap and you want to add "no cosmetics for you".

    For the record it would be incredibly easy to make membership compulsory through a punitive approach, but in doing so and if done to extreme you may as well make the game sub only, for example we could make elite affinities membership only, generator mainframe membership only, level 180/200 of artifacts membership only, all of these things would literally force a player to sub, certainly the serious ones; you could even go as far as rank 120 and above requires membership to virtually capture everyone, given how powerful artifacts are to players and that's really just a few examples.

    This is why myself and realistically others in this thread also have somewhat opposed your ideas, not because they're necessarily bad, well some of them are, but moreso because they're unrealistic, they require moderate to heavy resources the development don't seem to have or certainly not short term. I believe and you can feel like I've interpreted it wrong if you like, why Panderus even tempered that expectation and said some of these ideas like powers and power customization are great ideas but should really be a different project.

    Also to reiterate a point, I really don't mind if they include numerous ideas including some of yours, the idea that I think my list and only my list is possible couldn't be more errant.

    What I do think however is that we should focus on the more immediately materially realistic options not ideas and features that could/should be included anyway outside of membership later in the future, if they want to include those in membership later too, then that's fine, but don't tell me now, reason being is because there's nothing worse than an undelivered promise, the devs know this, we know this Apollonia, we've both been here a long time, we've both seen it and it's better just left alone until it's actually done/achieved.

    It's taken 10 years to do this membership review, the last thing we want is a promise of things we intend to include but aren't here yet and might never be if they don't get around to it or something happens pushing intended resources elsewhere.

    If you walk through the thread artifacts, nth metal, replays, extra resets every week, source mark relevancy, quarks, stabilizers and some exclusive cosmetics, market discounts and style sharing/feat transfer really do appear to be the biggest ideas, again that's not dismissing outright your ideas, but it really does appear to be where the bulk of peoples desires sit.
    • Like x 2
  2. Canadian Justice Well-Known Player

    A couple of other ideas:

    Members gain access to a second currency per DLC that can be used on non progression gear items (catalysts, pets, styles, etc).
    All dropped gear for members is account bound until equipped.
    • Like x 3
  3. Shark Dental Devoted Player

    I must have missed the part where "brainstorming" was less about creativity and providing ideas and more about trying to win a discussion.
    • Like x 1
  4. Proxystar #Perception

    Yes but brainstorming isn't limited to simply throwing words on a piece of paper.

    Part of the brainstorming process is openly discussing the points in terms of pros/cons and also explaining why certain ideas may have more merit than others.

    This is a part of the natural debating process, "winning a discussion" is probably an inflammatory term to some extent but in some ways possibly also isn't far from the truth.

    In any debating exercise there's always going to be some sort of "victor", marginally, partially, possibly completely.

    This isn't to say that the person putting forth the idea is the "victor", that's possibly the inflammatory way to view it but rather the "idea" itself, is the victor.

    At the end of this thread, the developers are going to choose some of the ideas in this thread, perhaps they'll also have some of their own, but it's actually somewhat of a disservice to just simply limit the discussion to "putting ideas in a list" when the further discussion and subsequent interactions from other players either through things like positive reinforcement of the ideas, post likes and that sort of thing send a strong signal as to which ideas possess the most merit in terms of what players want.

    This is why I keep reinforcing my posts with the majority of requests, because that's what's been the theme of the thread generally speaking; again, artifacts, nth metal, replays, loot lockouts, mark relevancy, character/episode progression, market discounts, features that benefit alts.

    These appear to be things the majority of players want as reinforced in their posts, not just my posts, if you take a look.

    There are certainly the odd posts where people have come up with, even brilliant ideas, surrounding game features and enhancements but they're very sporadic have little subsequent support and likely involve moderate to extensive development resources. They're simply unrealistic on many levels.

    That's not to say they're bad ideas, at all, just that they're better suited to their own future project and hopefully the fact they're posted here will prompt the developers to pick them up, so those ideas are obviously welcome, put them down, but at least understand what you're requesting, the likelihood of it and whether or not it's really best suited for a membership review or whether it's just something you want because it would be amazing.
    • Like x 1
  5. Apollonia Committed Player

    If you want someone to take you seriously, it always help to not talk down to them.

    No offense taken. Everything is 5 by 5. ;)

    THe goal is to add value to membership. If we can put ingame cash behind membership there's no reason we can't also put customization, as a whole, behind membership. And we should. The game offers an excellent customization system that just lacks commonly requested items -- which will be added to overtime. The system itself is a fantastic value that should be put behind membership. It would definitely incentivize players to sub if they're heavily into customization; which most players are. For players who aren't as interested in it, they have their free change (or it could be upped to 2 or 3 etc) or can pay a tiny fee via replays. Of course some players may be initially turned off by the idea, but they aren't losing any functionality and will realize it pretty fast. Like Spytle said about the cash cap years ago; it's meant to cause friction and be a motivator to sub. The same is true here with this suggestion.

    Ideally, new features will be added to the game (like some I proposed) and they will be behind membership but if people replying here think anything new can't possibly be made in time for when this goes live, logically, we should be looking at the already existing ones. We can't have it both ways.
  6. Shark Dental Devoted Player

    • Like x 1
  7. Proxystar #Perception

    Guess you missed my last paragraph.

    This is also a fluid moving discussion Shark Dental, in which there's not just one side here (me) engaging in protracted debate if you believe I've over-critiqued (and naturally in turn the other persons) then you're always welcome to report the posts you think have breached some sort of guidelines rather than playing forum moderator. :)
    • Like x 1
  8. Shark Dental Devoted Player

    My feedback has been clear and easy to understand, which is what I wanted to accomplish. There's no reason for me to continue extrapolating or repeating the same points. Other people are free to express their ideas as well, and I appreciate well-reasoned suggestions that come from a place of good faith. I may add more if new ideas spark my imagination.

    Of course, the devs are free to do with my ideas what they will. I always vote with my wallet above all, as do other players ultimately.

    I know they have access to data that no player does regarding purchasing habits and gameplay trends across the board, not just a small sample size of 50-odd people.
    • Like x 1
  9. Kimone Devoted Player

    See, this is the major disconnect I'm having with this line of suggestion or thinking in general -

    What I consider a "Value add" is directly adding something to my gameplay experience in order to incentivize the continuance of paying in over time, whereas your definition of "value add" apparently includes removing something we have ALL, ALWAYS - regardless of subscriber level - gotten for free.

    To be blunt, - and I've said this a few times already - taking something away from someone else because I'm losing something that I previously had access to is NOT improving gameplay experience, for anyone, at all, but it WILL increase community toxicity.

    This is not the kind of suggestion I would expect out of a person who views subscribership as a beneficial system or a supportive system - this seems more like the sort of suggestion whose core of motivating intention is quite a bit more base and petty.

    "I'm a member so I deserve to look good, but you don't" is pretty groundfloor gatekeeping.

    Cash cap? That's incentivizing. It's an inconvenience, sure, but it doesn't prevent Premium or Free members from participating in our jaw-dropping selection of character customization options.

    Removing the ability to make daily Style changes (or adding Style limitations as a subscription tier modifier in general) DOES actively remove any incentive to participate in some of our more lucrative (scams) in-game RNG-based item allotment programmes. There's not a lot of chance that I'd be spending cash on Time Capsule unlocks or Booster Bundles if I were simply not allowed to modify my character.

    And before you try drawing a line of comparison between the cash cap and what you're suggesting? The cash cap has always been there and was recently loosened (significantly, from the standpoint of the primary complaint levied against it, being repair costs) - this?

    This is just ugly.

    It's a bad look.
    • Like x 8
  10. Punksquasher New Player

    i would like to see a return of the lifetime membership.. i have always missed the window of when it has been offered. i am now retired and money is not as plentiful as it once was. this is one of the ways i relax and play. So please consider the return of lifetime memberships
  11. AruEdu Well-Known Player

    pongan para usar en lugar de 6 skills 18... 6 x 3... osea 3 lineas de habilidades en el juego... apuesto un ojo a que seria mucho mas divertido. Y si lo que quieren son muchos mas jugadores nuevos... pongan un reclamo infalible... todas las semanas un evento y un regalito de algo para todo el mundo... por ejemplo...
    y por supuesto.. un punto muy importante es que siendo jugador gratuito.. facilmente llenas el inventario cada vez que matas un boss.. PONGAN UN LIMITE UN POCO MAS STANDAR por favor... para los jugadores gratuitos 2000 monedas es muy poco.. para empezar hay cosas que ni puedes comprar asi... no tienes dinero para reparar ni 3 piezas de la armadura cuando pasas de 310 PC... eso habria que arreglarlo.
  12. Proxystar #Perception

    Posting in absolute support of this view.
    • Like x 1
  13. Apollonia Committed Player

    That's totally fair to dislike it. It means it's doing its job. That's the point of it to add friction like the cash cap does. They're both core features or aspects of the game that players feel they should have unrestricted access to but [in this case] wouldn't necessarily. The reaction is the same.

    It's true non members always had unrestricted access, it is a feature of value that should have always been a member feature. And to address the substance of your concern, I'm not taking anything away from anyone. They have options to still get the exact same functionality and you quoted it in your reply, so it's in bad faith to pretend as if something is being taken away when it's clearly not. Using the free change per month (or whatever amount the Devs feel would be fair) or some replays OR subbing are all perfectly fair ways to support the feature.

    It's an excellent feature and the truth is it has potential for monetization that hasn't been explored but could have. It's a business and the game deserves to make money. And it's likely to be far more effective at promoting subs and maintaining them than a bunch of gimme-gimme-gimme freebies not everyone cares about. And as long as some players refuse to support suggestions of new features that would "add value" as unrealistic, the only thing left for us to explore and for the devs to look at, is existing features that already add value but aren't being monetized.

    This would also affect me in a couple months when my membership expires. I'm not being petty at all; I'm doing the assignment. I'm not suggesting things just because I would personally benefit from them -- I'm making suggestions that are best for the game. And I know that if they did this I'd definitely resub for exactly the reasons noted.

    ps. Could we not do the personal insults / attacks thing. That's a bad look too and undeserved.
  14. Dragon Power Well-Known Player

    The loss of the episodes in the membership will be a pretty big blow. Really, the only thing I can think of is that you'll have to add something that will be a significant perk to help the member with his character progression. If all it will be are cosmetic perks, count me out.

    I'm currently on hiatus because quite frankly, I cannot stand the artifact grind.

    You basically have to sink money into the game every few months like you're buying a new game to get any progression that feels reasonable. The grind is unreal and is unfriendly to alts, new players, returning players, and alt play styles.

    But I WON'T tolerate the artifact grind though and if nothing gets added to the membership perks that helps with it (and/or changes made to game) then also count me out.

    The only other membership perk that means anything, the unlimited cash, is needed because it helps with the artifact progression grind somewhat, but again, only if you sink an unreasonable amount of time playing the 'grind for items to sell on the broker' game, and it's also a stumbling block because you also need cash to progress certain feats. So, you're left with having to decide if you'll be using the money you earn to help orgress your artifacts, or help progress some of the feats. And that's really the only other thing I can't stand with this game, the skill point grind being tied to feats, but I've learned to somewhat tolerate that one (it's also unfriendly to alts/new players/returning players and I wish the SP grind was moved to it's own system separate from feats).
  15. Kimone Devoted Player


    If I call you "base and petty" outright? I'm insulting you. Also, not for nothing, but after your "closed beta" comment earlier, I'm not sure you really have a foot to stand on in that particular department.

    But we're not here to talk about that. We're here to evaluate what potential suggestions for improving the benefit received by subscribers looks like, considering that part of that benefit - arguably the most substantial part - is being made available to all players, regardless of membership.

    As for comparing it to the the cash cap, I find that to be a little specious as a point of comparison. That's always been around, that's a stone to bear. It's the game's oldest standing albatross.

    The only real reason to support it now is because it HAS stood for so long, and it DOES - like it or lump it - motivate SOME people to pay in to subscribe. But to propose that we inflict it on an entire tier of players were it not already an institution would be utterly draconic.

    There would be no acceptable justification whatsoever for telling everyone who had access to this system yesterday that they no longer qualified for it. It's an act that strikes at the throat of the person it is levelled against; it's of no gain to you, whatsoever, to force someone else's play experience to become objectively worse in a major way as a trade-off for making another part of their play experience less cumbersome to deal with.

    That being done serves no visible purpose to the discussion at all, because it's not an addition for me - it's a removal for someone else.

    Your first comment doesn't play well with your second comment. You cannot say you're taking anything away from someone and then propose a restriction that does that very thing a sentence later.

    Style change is one of the pillars of the play experience. I do a tremendous amount of it myself. If it had been pay-in the whole time. the game would be missing literally thousands of dollars of my income, because I wouldn't be playing it now if it was pay-in. Literally just to change your style. Not to gain special Styles or anything else. Just to see how you look in a different outfit.

    That's how unpalatable this suggestion is to my core sense of fairness. Just because you could, in theory, force a few people into paying in by taking away a core function of the game doesn't mean you should, especially considering who else you might lose in the meantime.

    That's the core concept of what I'm trying to express - I don't gain anything by forcing someone else to lose something.

    Punishing someone else for gaining something I already have by taking away something THEY already have isn't fairness, and it cannot be successfully argued as a benefit to me because I'm already receiving access to it any way it gets sliced.

    Flatly - what you're proposing looks like it comes from a place of questionable motivation. Your proposal directly suggests arbitrary addition of a previously non-extant barrier to the free/premium level of player membership, in exchange for what is being made available to them. It's being framed as motivational, which is debatable, while it is - indisputably - a very questionable form of quid pro quo.

    Claiming that this adds value to your membership carries with it the implication that someone else NOT being able to do something you can - and this is key, now - THAT THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN ABLE TO DO, is somehow a benefit to you. I cannot see that being a case unless personal satisfaction at the denial of one's fellow players is a personality trait one has.

    I can, however, see it losing money for the game by locking out people who don't sub, but who DO pay in to the Booster Bundle and Time Capsule purchase system. Why buy Styles if you cannot use them?

    And finally -

    The very inception of the discussion carries with it the caveat that we were discussing addition to membership benefits, not arbitrary reorganization of free or premium level access to remove currently extant functions, extending far beyond the stated and proposed access change.

    Ultimately - all other motivations aside, yours or mine - this is why I disagree with your suggestion.

    You're not proposing an addition to OUR membership benefits, you're proposing a tax on free / premium players.
    • Like x 4
  16. Apollonia Committed Player

    Okay well, I made it past your first sentence and if you're *contemplating* being respectful in a reply to me there's no point going further. Move along.
  17. inferno Dedicated Player

    What i really hope for, is that the DEVS do take this time and opportunity to not only compensate for the loss of the DLC value from membership but to update the benefits of subscription services. We have been requesting for changes into it and they have always said that it is a hanging discussion in their meetings. I hope it works out.
  18. Mepps Sr. Community Manager

    It looks like the brainstorming has come to an end in this thread, so we're going to lock it up. Thank you to everyone who pitched in with ideas.
    • Like x 12
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