ATT SOE DEVS: Mental damage base values need adjusting immediately.

Hi, I'm Disasterpiece. I've been around since launch, seen my fair share of nerfs, buffs, bugs and exploits. I don't consider myself to be the best at anything, but I'd like to think I'm an exceptional DPS, and have friends who would agree to this. Some of you may have seen my posts or guides on the old forums, and maybe a couple here on the new ones. Whether you know me or not, I have some important information to share with the DCUO community.


I switched to Mental a few days ago after dropping by Earth to see if anything has changed (it hasn't). Had some free time today and after discussing with Gun Tae (another respected USPC DPS in my league) I wondered what the actual bonus for having a PI active.

During my testing, I set the same parameters to work out base values. All dps innates, all affinity bonuses on gear, 2002 base might, no base mods, 35% damage modifier, specialisation in TK tree to keep crit damage values equal in between respecs. I took the lowest non crits, the highest non crits, the lowest crits and the highest crits with and without the appropriate power interactions. Here's the results:



What you see is correct. The base damage values for ALL instant cast damage inducing powers is the same. Whether it is a first tier or final tier power, whether it costs 200 power or 385 power, they have the same base values, excluding any additional damage over time. The only difference is how it hits it's targets (single target, central AoE, cone aoe, capped amount of targets, "objects" passing through enemies like Tendrils). Mass Levitation and TK Bolt have the same cast time and same base value if TK Bolt is without a daze PI.

I hesitated for a moment and had a chat to a friend in game, Artillery. He recently switched to Mental as well and after me explaining this, went and tested under the same conditions and to his shock he yielded the same results. This is not a bug on my character, this is now fact for ALL Mental players.

Now after this information, it doesn't take a genius to pick the powers with the highest damage threshold for the least time and/or power consumed. This is NOT a "versitile" power set if every power is almost the same as it's predecessor. Why should I use Cryokinesis if TK Push costs 170 less power and is a lower tier power? As a dps, why should I choose ANY AoE power that isn't TK push if I want to use the TK tree? Why should I use Mental at all if MAJORITY OF WHAT MENTAL HAS IS NOT SPECIAL IN ANY WAY.

So claiming to have rebalanced Mental and Gadgets and here we have high and low tier powers with the same base damage values? Gadgets can do the same thing, just faster.


TL;DR: 12 out of 12 instant cast damaging abilities Mental has have the same base damage values, regardless of where they are in the tree or how much power they cost. If the power gets a bonus for a power interaction, they move up to another tier in damage that is again the same base damage value of any ability that increases off a PI bonus.


This is poor work by the devs and REALLY need re-evaluation. Jens, Mepps, Larry, Tunso, SOMEONE please speak up. This is not OK and we need to know what you plan on doing to fix this.

This is the same situation as most powersets. Look at some guides that list base damage of powers and you will see this trend. Only a few instant cast nukes have a slight damage variation (e.g. gauss hits a little stronger). I think this is by game design.

That considered, this is supposed to be after they've been "balanced" and yet here we are. It's not just the base values, almost everything that Mental has to replicate how Gadgets performs is slower, weaker and doesn't hit as many targets.

It's not the base dmg that matters it's how you utilize the pi's and dmg bonuses. Mental is fine. The problem is gadgets is just way too easy to use and is very easy to clip allowing it to produce absurd amounts of dmg. It's been a while but I easily topped charts as mental with a full precision build(I switched from hard light). These days with enduring damage mod, if I went back I would probably play with mass lev and work on playing off the helpless pi there mixed with some terror from menace/mass terror.

Just takes a bit of testing what works for you and what works well in a rotation to get the dmg flowing.

Interesting analysis, DP. Isn't part of the power cost going toward damage modifier percentage, as well, though?

I would need details on the aspects I quoted to determine if I agree with your conclusion. If a lower tier ability and a higher tier ability have the same damage except the lower tier is single target and the higher tier is multi-target yet costs more power, I would consider that balanced.

I don't recall PI damage being as consistent as you report. I know they overlap in ranges but often have different lows and highs by a couple points of base damage. Consider how Psychic Resonance explodes encased targets for even more damage where TK Push does not. I was pretty sure that Psychic Shock has higher PI damage than Phantom Flames but Phantom Flames has more overall damage when adding in the burning DoT (hence a greater power cost). In your testing, I don't see the DoT or the variance. Has the power changed or did your testing miss that?

Last I looked, projecting numbers out from the DCUO Book (post GU-18), the resulting damage from the helpless PI was stronger than the damage from the terrorized PI. The real flaw (moreso than how powers relate to each other) was that you can't setup helplessness as reliably in DPS role. That hurt Mental because you were limited to only making due with the Terrorized PI which started narrowing you into Mass Terror, Menace, Psychic Shock, Phantom Flames, Bolt Barrage, and Terrorize (or some very minor derivation thereof, e.g. Invisibility or Terror Tendrils?). It was then simply a matter of how those 8 powers alone compared to other powersets. The rest were fairly moot.

Hence why the Telekinetic PI tree for Mental dps needs to be revamped and invisibility needs to be more functional vs laggy PS3 game play. Please vote this thread up so that the devs can have a reason to look into it.

I think the only good mental have over gadget is horrific visage especially for pvp due lag transformation, is too power hungry the illusion tree but tk tree is kind of worthless since is slow to setup up pi to maximize damage, now horrific visage gonna be remove with polymorph feel less worth mental, gadget have the better finisher, have better sc for dps, their burst are far better than mental, unless is adjust the base damage of most powers.

If you read the thread and understood the figures you'd see what my point is.
With no PI, TK Push hits for the same amount as Psy Resonance which hits for the same amount as Psychic Shock which hits for the same amount as Phantom Flames.
With the appropriate PI, TK Push hits for the same amount as Psy Resonance which hits for the same amount as Psychic Shock which hits for the same amount as Phantom Flames.
All four powers cost a different amount yet have the same cast time and come from different places in their respective trees.

Helpless PI does not exist, nor was it ever possible for a DPS to gain any benefit from it since it required a Dom check.

"what works for you" is all good and well, but numbers don't lie. I can top charts with any power, that's not what I'm getting at here. don't need help with DPS, I do just fine with Mental in it's current state. My issue is that 12 powers have the same base values, regardless of power cost or tier. If a power like TK Push hits just as hard for 200 power with a PI as Cryokinesis as a final tier costing 370 power, why would I use it?

No, the power cost is not calculated into my chart. It's there to demonstrate that even though all these powers have the same cast time and base values, they all cost more power the higher a tier they are. That is the only pattern. If a power is higher up in a tier, it costs more. Doesn't matter if it does the same damage, it just seems to be a "rule".

Single Target: Telekinesis, Thought Bubble, Pyrokinesis, Horrific Visage
Mid Range AoE: Psychic Resonance, TK Push
Long Range AoE: Cryokinesis, Psychic Shock, Phantom Flames
Tendrils is unique in that it throws 3 "projectiles" which do not split damage, do not have a set amount of targets that they can hit and can bounce off walls and floors. They almost have a random flight pattern.

Psy Res and TK Push are almost identical in function, aside from PR explodes encasements and TKP does not.

Phantom Flames does indeed to slightly more damage because of teh burning DoT. But with the crits lucky to exceed 40 (low end at 18) and everyone and their mother being able to "steal" your burning I chose not to work that in.

DCUO Book is wrong. "Helpless" PI does not exist any more, it's been replaced by daze. Since DPS cannot force a crowd control ability in alerts or raids, the bonus for that is far too inconsistent to be relied on. TK push with Daze will hit just as hard as Psychic Shock with Terror active. Will hit the same amount of targets in the same arc. And therein lies the problem. Too many powers in DPS stance are too similar, even moreso now than pre-UD17. And that was what most mental players claimed was the problem.

I have all the numbers between the highest and lowest numbers on the chart and they all coincide, it's not a random "the lowest non crit and the highest crit are at the same parameters" literally each and every number I recorded for every power repeated itself.

Let me just say that I don't think most powers need their base numbers changed, just a few.The big problem here is "why should I use X when Y does the same thing for less power and less power points?" If they are to have the same base values, they need SOMETHING to make them more desirable.

If I were to "fix" Mental and had it my way:

Scrap Mass Levitation completely. Make a new power called "Mind Field" or something. Have it do the same thing, cost the same power and have the same base values as CoP/Inferno/Wintery Tempest/etc and apply and create an AoE field that dazes anything in the area. On cast, it gives the targets a "headache" like in Strykers if a Dom check succeeds.

Cryokinesis needs to be reworked. For 370 power and the amount of power points required to get to it, it's silly. Make the "extra damage" apply as a single figure instead of a base number and a bonus number. And give it a chance to encase in DPS role so we can blow it up with Psychic Resonance. Then there is an apparent bonus to using Psy Res over TK Push, but still allowing you to use TK Push in a different build.

Make Horrific Visage a single pet from Mass Hysteria instead of a damage/debuff power. It's an illusions tree, why can't we have a constant illusion?

Make Mass Terror the new heal debuff.

Remove the damage debuff from Terrorize and apply it to Psychic Shock.

Get rid of Mass Hysteria. Make an SC that is an AOE nuke like Strafing/Bunker/Vaccuum Bubble. Have the animation be of a giant spectre doing the flying whirlwind thing that the second boss does in With a Vengeance operation.


With these suggestions, it uses existing game assets that would require much less work than brand new animations. But it brings a lot more variance than what we have now and would guarantee to bring it in line with Gadgets/Light in terms of DPS whilst doing it in a different way.

Having the same base value isn't a bad thing when you consider the dmg bonus you get on the powers down the trees. Unless you are using the new 60% mod that doesn't let you overwrite dmg bonus then it will always be better to be using your 40-50% dmg bonus powers.

Mental hands down should be using the Illusions tree to do dps. The PI that was added to it made it flat out better. It is also the best tree mental has for single target and multi target. Also menace is a major dmg increase as a dps and not using the PI with it is just flat out a waste of power if you are not fully using it.

IF anything mental should be asking for a better TK tree because the Illusions tree flat out will out perform the TK tree as dps. I think this is what shocked a lot of the player base because after the revamp the tree that everyone basicly didn't use became the best tree to take for both controlling and dps where before the TK tree was the top dog.

But if i know how they opperate i would guess that the base values for all other powersets probably follow the same trend. Take nature for example all the dots hit in the same dmg range.

"IF anything mental should be asking for a better TK tree because the Illusions tree flat out will out perform the TK tree as dps. I think this is what shocked a lot of the player base because after the revamp the tree that everyone basicly didn't use became the best tree to take for both controlling and dps where before the TK tree was the top dog."

The base values should not be the same and they are not for every power set and yes the Telekinetic tree and invisibility needs some serious work to make them functional again .

Do not post here if you do not have anything productive to add.

Couple of things wrong here, as well as some lacking information.

In Control Role, Thought Bubble becomes an AoE, a massive one at that. It could still only encase just one other target though.

Both Psychic Resonance and Telekinetic Push are also long ranged attacks. In fact, I use one or the other in my full range DPS loadout. The difference comes in their AoE type, control effect and power cost.

Telekinetic Push is the single cheapest power in the game that deals a median of roughly 35 base damage in its power interaction. It's also a proper ray AoE (hits enemies in a single straight line), and is the only other ray-type damage AoE in Mental's arsenal (the other being TK Bolt). As the name implies, it also pushes back opponents.

Psychic Resonance, on the other hand, is actually both a ray-type AoE and a radius-type AoE. It's only a ray in the sense that it can stun people within your line of sight. However, its damage component is actually far more similar to that of Psychic Shock.

Helpless is just a reworded compilation of control effects which includes stuns, juggles, knockbacks, knockdowns and rootings. Probably panic and polymorph as well but I'm not too sure. Daze did not replace Helpless. It was just added along with Helpless interactions while the term Helpless was just broken down for clarification.

It's true that TK Push will deal more or less the same damage as Psychic Shock, with or without the power interaction. However, let's look at the bigger picture. In raids, TK Push may not be the most efficient power in your loadout, but in PvP, it can be absolutely terrifying. The fact that it still interacts with knockdowns mean you'll always get a free interaction even without daze or terror. And what knocks down in PvP? Interrupts, Blocks and Blockbreakers. Combined with the low power cost of TK Push makes it a force to be reckoned with. Add the fact that it actually pushes opponents, which none but Cryokinesis (with PI) and TK Bolt can do.

I did read your post and I understand where you are coming from. You're just not seeing the big picture. You're boiling the powers down to raw dmg without considering the dmg bonuses, pi dmg, pi setups, range, dot ticks, etc. The way I see it every powers cast times and power consumption is based on all those factors not just the dmg. The reason the base dmg is flat across the board is to prevent people only using top tier powers. Find one person that only uses their 50% bonus powers. there are none because you need to use lower tier powers to setup or interact with the pi's or to drop fire and forget type powers.

You also have to consider each powers function in troll stance as well since those functions also have an impact on power cost and recast.

I'm at work now and can't go into too much detail breaking down your findings, and just ti to play devils advocate here.

Thanks for correcting/elaborating on that Drift Hazard. After all that is said, in PvE DPS my concerns still apply. Mental is fine in PvP, and I myself have been using TKP since launch for the reasons outlined. The biggest problems stem from appropriate damage set ups in DPS role without high dominance and without a proper way to apply Daze in an AoE without the use of Dazing Devices.

Except I did, it's on the chart.

Admittedly I don't explain my concerns are from a PvE DPS perspective and most of those concerns wouldn't apply at all for a controller.

Thing is though, if you're going to change TK Push for PvE, what will happen to it in PvP? Unlike other games, DCUO doesn't really separate PvE mechanics from PvP mechanics as far as powers are concerned.

You mortals must stop comparing your powersets to gadgets.Theres a reason its OP. Only I can compete with it for I am a champion of olympus!

I don't want TK Push changed at all. I love TK Push. Read my list of suggested changes a few posts up.

Actually, that's just a food for thought. Doesn't have to be TK Push. It could be any power you listed.