Test Discussion Atomic Powers

Discussion in 'Testing Feedback' started by spord, Oct 15, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Mystere Well-Known Player



    This is interesting cause when I do the new duo with an atomic partner and one of us goes Geiger and the other combo (and test vice versa) we consistently get the geiger path to do much better. I think adds die so fast that you dont get the long term benefit of the combos - I am not sure though. Maybe for smaller content geiger may be better but for more difficult combos?
  2. Superskull85 Devoted Player

    Why does it matter that it helps a blocking Atomic Tank? Just because Ice Shields can be thought of as a "delayed heal" I'll use Ice here. Ice can effectively have the 90% Defense and shield while blocking or not blocking. If you include the Dominance heals together and make it a shield you more or less get Ice. So why is it that Ice can have a significant benefit from blocking and 100% of their other mechanics but Atomic has just block?

    I get that Atomic is supposed to be this "super awesome active Tank" but Ice could theoretically also be an "active Tank" by making up the damage in weapon attacks yet that is not how all Tanks necessarily *want* to play. Now, yes, you can use Fortified Blocking but so can an Ice Tank and any other Tank.

    What if you experience difficulty using combos or a certain string of attacks forces you to be bounced around?

    I am just not sure why Atomic has to be played as an active Tank else you get basically nothing to help with effective Health? Again if you took Ice's shields and split them up into heals Ice is basically Atomic. Why the difference in treatment here?
    • Like x 2
  3. Superskull85 Devoted Player

    So to solve the problem you should just ignore it? Even a common Rage or Ice Tank blocks. Why? To give you 100% Control Resistance, 5% extra in Fortified Blocking and the many opportunities to counter which can give you a significant added benefit as a Tank. However even so an Ice Tank can effectively be an active Tank if they wanted yet their entire mechanic is useable while blocking and not blocking.

    Yes a lot of examples have adds in them but so to does most "hard" boss fights. With adds comes a lot of juggles and counters. That is why Tanks error on the side of blocking in those situations. Which is why blocking should not just be ignored.

    I'm suggesting these changes now because a typical Tank will except to block on live. They'll come back with very similar feedback.
    • Like x 2
  4. HeavyWeapon Dedicated Player

    Again you are a focusing on the wrong thing. You continually are complaining about blocking when you should be suggesting how to make NOT BLOCKING viable for atomic.

    This isn't a typical tank and if they come back with that feedback they picked the wrong power.
    • Like x 1
  5. Elusian Crowd Control

    It will help to allow a bit to keep the combo system going while not blocking but if its enough is hard to say.

    The main concern that was brought up dmg exceeding your base health and how you are able to deal with it. Ima throw out another simple example regardless of block or not blocking as it can happen either way (e.g. Survival Mode, New Ops Death Touch from Black Hand if low geared):

    Basic 30k Health Tank
    Numerours Attacks hitting for 50k Damage over a longer period of time with enough time to heal it back but not allowing to rely just on your basic shield most powersets have access to.

    Earth: Absorption cuts it in half dealing for 25k (actually less if non-block because of the increased Defense). Survived
    Fire: Increased Health pool around the double having ~10k left to play with. Survived
    Ice: 90% Defense + one of many shields in your repertoire outside of the regular shield options that other powersets have access too as well. Survived
    Rage: If adds are around your health pool is so high you won't even recognize you got hit hard, if just boss chances are slim hence why you dont see Rage in SM for that specific reason. Kinda dead
    Atomic: 90% Defense + ?. The proposed extra 10% are critical, they are worthy on numerous adds where a lot of smaller hits getting all cut through the 10% absorption but on a boss fight making it feel barely worth a change e.g. when dealing with a classic Haymaker from Black Hand when you arent able to block. Dead

    If there is the time to put it on test. I gonna run, record and exclusively use the combo through everything method in the new Operation since we have all types of boss fights happening there. See how I survive compared to the duck & cover method. :)
    • Like x 4
  6. Superskull85 Devoted Player

    Yes because that is what the entire feedback is about. I do it because when you compare to similar Tank (Ice) could be active Tank like Atomic yet, again, get that same benefit while blocking. Why does there have to be a difference in treatment?

    Heck Rage is the best example of an active Tank you can get but their mechanics persist through block as well. Why does Atomic have to be any different? I'm not asking for Rage's reactive heals but to have equal opportunity to be a Tank while blocking or not. If you are someone that wants to be an active Tank go do so. If you feel that the 100% Control Resistance is best for an extended period why shouldn't you be allowed to do it when every other Tank with similar active Tank abilities can do so?
    • Like x 1
  7. HeavyWeapon Dedicated Player

    There are 4 other thanks you can play how you want. Move on.

    Ice blocks because they get 5% more mitigation making their shields 5% more effective.

    Fire blocks because its gets A TON more mitigation making their health last longer.

    Rage blocks because it gets A TON more mitigation making their health last longer and their rage crash less lethal.

    Earth Blocks because their aborption is on top of mitigation.


    Atomic has none of these. That is why blocking doesn't matter and it doesn't need to. Atomics tank mechanic is comboing for heals.....you can't combo for heals if you are blocking.....and it shouldn't have to.

    I'm not going to keep going with this its a moot point. Spord has spoken so help him or continue to fight him that's your choice...i'd prefer you not fight what his vision is for the power so that you don't delay the actual changes.
    • Like x 4
  8. Karasawa Loyal Player

    Tbh the situations which worry me most with Atomic are also the scenarios with an abundance of hard-hitting adds. 40% dominance heals and 2% health heals are fine in a 1-on-1 boss encounter, but throw in a few inferno demons and I'm not so sure. If Quark-Gluon's 2% health heal scaled up in proportion to the number of adds around you it would alleviate these worries.

    I like QG aura because it can be utilized with any attack whether it be weapon, pull, or atomic combo. It gives us some the freedom to not block while also giving us some freedom from having to combo. What's the point of having the freedom to not block if we just replace it with the need to use equally immobile atomic combos?
  9. L T Devoted Player

    The damage absorption sounds great. This would mean that, if we start out at full health, we might actually survive the one-shot mechanics without blocking.

    Even with this improvement the performance when taking heavy damage seems a little weak, though. An Atomic Tank still needs to get off 3 full combos to heal back almost-but-not-quite the same amount of damage than one of Ice's normal shields would mitigate. Adding in the aura effect makes it more than a normal Ice shield but still only about 70% of what Reflection does.
    • Like x 4
  10. Absolix Loyal Player

    Except that makes Atomic too powerful of a tank. I understand that people want a more active playstyle, but getting to ignore a fundamental defensive mechanic just isn't feasible. If you give Atomic enough mitigation to survive one shots while not blocking it essentially gets all the benefits of a blocking Earth tanks while not blocking, and with the ability to still have access to heals Earth doesn't get. It is also very counter intuitive for a player to become weaker when using the game's most fundamental defensive actions.

    It is sort of saying "screw you" to every other tanking power since Atomic would be able to do what they do without blocking. You can have a tank that doesn't need to block as much, Atomic already doesn't need to block as much as Fire and even Rage, but ignoring blocking just makes Atomic too much better than the other Tank powersets. There needs to be some balance between support roles, and ignoring blocking does not accomplish that.
    • Like x 1
  11. HeavyWeapon Dedicated Player

    No one said give it enough mitigation to survive a one shot, infact we said the opposite. It should still have to block for 1 shots. It should not have to block for anything else(aside from counters)

    You are ignoring the risk vs reward here. Its not like it can just go all willy nilly out of block and do what it wants. It will have to maintain its combos or else it loses heals it desperately needs. It may seem like it's saying screw you but its not as safe as an Earth, Fire, Rage, or Ice tank. The second you make Atomic safer in block it becomes a boring old turtle tank like the other 4.......People will pick what is safer every time. If you even make it so Atomic blocking is EQUAL to it not blocking people will block because it's "safer".
    • Like x 1
  12. Absolix Loyal Player

    Honestly, in my opinion, the heals would be better.

    If you are referring to having a 10% mitigation not directly stacking with defense, then as already mentioned that would only take the 75% mitigation from just defense to 77.5% which wouldn't help with one-shots if the 80% from fortified blocking isn't even enough.

    If you are talking about it directly stacking with defense boosting the 75% to 85%, I have to say that is a bad idea. It essentially makes blocking weaker than not blocking. This likely wouldn't help that much as it means th tank will still take 50% more damage tan a blocking Earth tank, as they get up to 90% mitigation with fortified blocking and their mechanic. I know that this is supposed to have a more active playstyle, but I feel as though it would be better accomplished by rewarding players for being more active, aka the heals, than making a fundamental defensive mechanic behave differently than in everywhere else in the game

    Either way I don't believe either option would solve the one shots while blocking problem. There are mechanics meant to only be survived by a tank while blocking and I don't think trying to give a tank powerset a way to be an exception to that is good for balance between the tank powers.
  13. Superskull85 Devoted Player

    "Typical Tank" as in a player, not the powerset. :/ A Tank (player) on live will expect to be able to block and survive if they ever need to for whatever reason.
    No. That's just like saying a Controller can only stun with X Power Interaction in place because it is "special" or a Healer only being able to heal you when you are below 50% Health just "because."

    It shouldn't be expected that you switch powersets because your current powerset is not viable in scenario A or situation B. If the group expects the Tank (and thus all targets) to never move or move 5-10% of the time then I would hope that the Tank in question is able to take advantage of the 100% Control Resistance block provides (and is there for) and still survive all attacks.

    The biggest example I can give here is the community expectation of a Tank standing close to the edge of an arena in New Genesis Now last boss. One bad knockback or series of knockbacks and that Tank is out permanently. Now sure you could say "well just bring a different Tank." That is the exact reason I am advocating for this change. Atomic Tanks shouldn't be just be excluded because they can't survive a scenario based on the strict design plan of Atomic. The community is not just going to change their ways because Atomic can't do it. They'll just kick that Tank or exclude Atomic outright.
    • Like x 2
  14. HeavyWeapon Dedicated Player

  15. ACW37162 Loyal Player

    I love the absorption idea for several reasons.....

    1. It makes sense your aura would protect you and "absorb" some damage it makes he aura integral to your tanking mechanic.
    2. Just how atomic designed out, taking a little from each the existing tank sets, adding a little damage absorption rounds out all four previous tank powers, I wasn't counting the damage transfer power as it was going to be I nice niche power for certain situations. You would have heals(fire), defense (ice), combos (rage), and if implemented a little absorption (earth)
    3. A little bit of each tank and I really like the exclusion of block, which would have instantly made atomic the best turtle tank in the game in excited the tech exists to do that.

    If you wanted to get really exotic you could tie the damage absorption to QG aura + Density to get the absorption and add utility to density but that is completely seperate conversation.

    Looking forward to hopefully getting to test this out.
  16. Absolix Loyal Player

    Except the problem that is trying to be solved is that Atomic struggle more with surviving one-shots that typically require tanks to block. Have you read the last few pages? It has been the primary topic for a while.

    And again, if you give Atomic the benefits the other tanks need to block for it becomes easy mode tanking. There has to be a balance between the powers, and since tanking is a the most defensive role that includes one of the games most fundamental defensive actions, blocking.

    Also, if you have a problem with tanking with those powers, why do you play Earth? If it is so "boring" why are there any tanks at all? If people like those powers with blocking, this power can be liked too. It still doesn't have to block as often as other powersets. If the one shot solution can be found, it would only be for countering or for those one shots.
  17. HeavyWeapon Dedicated Player

    And again. It's been pretty obvious based on what Spord is saying that he doesn't agree with you and instead trying to find ways to make it better out of block which is what I would like as well so no need to keep this going. He will do whatever helps his intended vision for it.
    • Like x 1
  18. ACW37162 Loyal Player

    @karasawa

    Regarding the math and healing values the absorption percentages are roughly equal in terms of number value.

    I think both of us would agree, numbers being exactly, absorption > healing just because it's more proactive and the healing is more reactive.
    • Like x 1
  19. Superskull85 Devoted Player

    Short of giving Atomic 100% Control Resistance while the aura is up this won't happen. The idea that you quoted involves control effects, not damage. The risk there is being pushed off which won't be solved while not blocking. If it solved while not blocking I would still ask why does there have to be a difference? If Atomic has 100% Control Resistance while not blocking then why can't Ice have the exact same thing since the only effectively lacking capability between Atomic and Ice then would be the Control Resistance.

    If the community expectations can change then you would never have seen "except Fire Tanks" in early tier 1-4. Or you wouldn't see "must be Nature" in any content that is Power intensive. Fire Tanks were largely accepted because of their buffs to Health and healing. Even so it was common to stick Fire Tanks on or Essence of War in Throne of the Dead. The Nature attitude for wanting Insectoid has yet to change when it is beneficial.

    Both Earth and Rage were different than Ice and Fire when they came out. Earth came out with 2 unique ways to Tank: for those that want to combo and those that don't. Rage came out (and still has) the same capabilities to be an active Tank. Some players do indeed like being able to do that but yet others actually want to block. They can do that because the powerset doesn't smack their hand and say "No!" It gives them the choice.

    Even though both Earth and Rage gave Tanks different, unique, ways to Tank they could both block or not block and just be as effective. The only difference they lost is damage. So I ask again why should Atomic be forced to not block most of the time other than "just because?"
    • Like x 3
  20. HeavyWeapon Dedicated Player

    Bottom line Spord obviously doesn't agree with you so move on.....again.
    • Like x 2
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.