Appropriate response to a undergeared in the raid

Well early on OC was harder for the inexperienced and people were trying to put groups together with the best setup that they thought would get it done how be it what people will always complain about.

Having grinded through the early days with players on the rise I can say from experience that those who grind the gear I find have a bit more patience with others who choose the same path, while others who typically take the short cut via.. skipping straight to raids will have more experience in the raids but have little patience as they cannot wait to get to end game.

Of course if they are maxed out on SP that could play a roll in the thinking process, but those that choose the short path can become a cancer to the community and set others up to fail as their skill level can be subpar due to lack of experience.

I believe they hurt more than they help, but it is a win for DC as they pump serious money out and help the bottom line.

For the record Pugs are not alone on this issue as some leagues have the same issue, but then again it can be natural to treat your fellow league mate/brother/sister like a step child and make them wait till the best run the content then slowly walk them through the content.

To say it is just Pugs well, I don't think the pugs are alone, but tight groups are a separate issue because they rarely step out of their comfort zone.

naw I was quoting a guy saying something but said not including these leagues because their above the rest or something lmao


so I asked why not include them are they not part of the community too

There's more to this game than 8 man raids. Use the solos, duos and alerts to gear up, then hit the raids. Simple...obviously...oh wait

No that is not what it is about, the challenge in the difficulty content is based on the mechanic ( puzzle ) aspect of the encounter. The gear itself works as an enabler to get through the mechanic while executing your role functionally. This is also the reason why when people tell people who complain about looking for a challenge, and other people tell them to take off gear/solo something past tier, it's nowhere near the same thing as, getting EO for instance. It's because either the mechanic requires multiple people like in khandaq or a mechanic that you have over geared and you can "steam roll", which is exactly the same for this situation but reversed. The gear is just an enabler but it works both ways, and outside factors like voice communication ( something pugs do not use ), can sometimes overcome but for the most part the gear has to be there, regardless of whether or not the correct mechanical strategy is being implemented.

In other words, you can overgear boss fights, and when you can't communication and what not can help overcome that gear gap, but only if a coordinated effort is being made ( I mean REAL teamwork ), on the other side of that, if the numbers are not there, usually pugs won't have enough group cohesion to beat the boss.

I remember back before CR was instituted and the raid descriptions had dominance requirements, now these dominance requirements were very low, but they did scale from t2 raids - t3 raids prior to CR, but I later found out that those dominance requirements were the minimum to tank CC TRASH mobs, and when it came to bosses the minimum dominance did nothing for bosses, that is how I see CR.

That CR requirement is really more for coordinated leagues that want an early go at the content and that use voice comms, not pugs that at most, barely plays with each other.

Seen the requirement for Wave EO? Still players wanting max cr, and still some of them fail...if it was about the challenge players wouldnt be kicking others roles out because "need moar burn" you wouldnt hear people say "we are able to beat the raid in 20 minutes" but whine when it runs nearly an hour, you wouldn't see max cr shouts for 4 man content that allows you to get into raids to achieve that max cr. The community doesnt want difficult just bragging rights to say the content was difficult..

Try running a hot with electric. Electrogenesis? good luck. I do use galvanize, an awesome HoT hitting max 50 after the burst.
And as rage tank, I tend to outheal the healer as well, not even hard tbf.

But on topic: I agree with Mepps on this one =)

wrong. this is the big problem with the "carry me" set. they feel like they're owed being carried, that it's their 'right' and lying is totally okay. mepps pointed out in another thread a few months ago that this is not the case. the right to play how you want to play [no skill points, crap gear] doesn't trump the rights of other players to form groups with whatever standards they please, that no one is owed a place in a group just for playing the game. thankfully we now have the two 'census' apps that allow us to see through lies and inspect a character's gear and SP.

I do not disagree with you on the mentality, but obviously players have been doing just that, then create a forum account, open a thread, begin to post how they are being left out as though they meet the minimum CR requirement or respond to post that they are just as skilled as if they actually ran content other than endgame content to try to keep up with the Browns.

I say with in there rights, as there is a minimum requirement to get into the content and they meet that minimum requirement.

I believe it was said that the APP could help groups that want to set groups up with the requirements, so I see the APP as a great tool for us if we choose to use it, the fact that the OP is still experiencing the behavior as I have as well should be a tell/tell sign that many are not so the QQ about it really is a self fulfilling prophecy brought on by the very people who are commenting on how it will be used against them.

But it can also help the other side as well, the player can choose there behavior, unfortunately what the OP experience is not how I believe players should choose to behave but I don't pay there bills so I'd rather hope I can avoid those types of players.

The play your way was based on the Sub, premium or free, yes I know, but they also do not discourage players from using toons as they see fit, hint the tool tip that reference, remember you are part of a team(paraphrased, I'm not on game right now for exact quote).

It works both ways for all these things so players can use the ignore button when they do come across those types of players.

I myself am indifferent to them as I try to minimize my exposure to them and I do not encourage others to do that either(skip tiers and then leave them for somebody else's problem).

The last part I find happen more with leagues than anything else as most leagues have there cliques, and they bring up Alts, new players and other random players, while making fun of the latter with live streams, all in having fun in game.( yes these things happen as well)

That's what T6 challenges, duos & alerts are for. A T5 player getting themselves into a T6 raid is asking for being carried. That's why people ask for CR. Now, skill can more than make up for lack of gear, but not everyone is properly skilled and those who are tend to group up in leagues. I'll say that about 10-20% of all players are pretty good, but if you are good, you are probably full T6 already. A player nowadays stuck in T5 is actually a Red Flag for any group (either the player lacks skill, time or interest).

except someone doesn't have a 'right' to a place in my group. as the person forming it, the only 'rights' for admission to the group are mine. i can not choose someone for any reason i please. i'm the one doing the work. it's very simple for these players to get groups, form them. advertise that your group has no SP/CR requirements. but the truth is they don't want a group filled with players half-assing it like they are. they want a place in a group with people who try. who bother gearing up and getting SP. where they have a better chance of not dragging the group down so low it cannot complete the objectives.

Well that is because of those players, actually most players, try to over gear the instance they are going into. You know I can see your side of the argument, but the community that wants difficult content, does not want arbitrary barriers to there success, we want the perfectly oiled machine aspect required for progression in "hardcore" endgame content. Most of the "suggestions" people make about how the end game community that wants difficulty is a very twisted and backwards idea of what true difficulty is, I want difficulty because of the reason it is end game content, not because I am in a team that I got together in the last 20-30 minutes and I do NOT know anybody.

People that want difficult content in DCUO, want legitimate difficulty, we do not want to carry others in content that is far above their heads, and wipe over and over again, until we all "leave the instance because its the right thing to do, regardless if you wasted 3-4 hours in there, instead of replacing the problem player".

@Solutha I must get great groups because I pug every raid every week with two toons. I had a failed lock down group once in the last month and I had one failed Love and Hate group that had Carol Ferris at a sliver of her health. Still got the raid done the next try. 18 t6 raids 2 fails. Interestingly enough if we included Dox the ratio favors you as I had 3 fail groups before I found a good group to get my monthly box.

I dont do leagues....i get kicked or fight because I get tired of rerunning raids for leaguemates or I sabotage if someone wants to glitch ie, clownbox Prime, the eo glitch etc.

Thanks guys for the helpful posts. After reading most of the comments, I think I found my personal solution to this:

A) Yes, I probably shouldn't expect much from PUG groups. But this covers such broad player base and I still feel that it's unfair to ignore all LFG requests, but this is a sure-fire way to avoid this issue.
B) Lots of people commented on that gear doesn't determine skill. Yes, you guys are absolutely correct; however, I still believe, regardless of gear or SP or CR, that if you are a liability to the raid in the role you signed up for, it is disrespectful to still partake in it without letting the team know. And most of the times, these liabilities have a nasty trend in being the "undergeared" players I referred to in my OP.
C) Many also said that "as long as the player(s) is not directly causing the raid/instance wipe, it's fine". Well, sure, losing a finger instead of a hand is fine too, relatively speaking. But I'd rather not lose my finger or a hand, so I disagree that player dragging the team down is "fine."

I made this post b/c I was conflicted about kicking the said undergeared (unskilled too from what I saw). I was called an elitist by the said player, and I questioned what was acceptable to do in these cases. Now I realize that these players have the right to play whatever content they see fit because they met the bare minimum the game had set; some (including myself) consider this disrespectful in ways, and consider them a liability to the raid. Thus, as another player myself, I have the right to vote kick the liability or reject the liability from the raid because I do not consider them fit for the raid. Elitist? Maybe. But if others will behave in ways I see disrespectful, I see no reason why I should consider their feelings to considerations.

Thank you for your comments. This was helpful.

The appropriate response is not aimed at the "undergeared" players. Either ask SOE to disallow them to enter at all and set "appropriate" CR requirements or get your own behind in motion to organize yourself 7 players to go with constantly in your holy 2 hours of game time. If you can't do that, you're the one failing.

And yeah, your attitude is not elitism. It's egoism/being egocentric. The frameset of an online game does not evolve around the sole being of yourself being dissatisfied with his 2 hour of gameplay, it's aimed at (last numbers claimed) millions of players. Get over it, even if that means find something more enjoyable to spend your 2 sole 2 hours at.

You're absolutely right. I will now be organizing my own raid groups from now on to avoid this issue.

However, it's unfair to call my attitude egocentric and telling me to essentially go spend your 2 "holy" hours with other things if I'm not happy with some of the player base. How is my desire to have a smooth 2 hours of playtime any more egocentric than anyone else's? If it is egocentric, then by that same logic, the aforementioned "under-geared" player is most definitely egocentric as well. I'm glad that some people like yourself are playing DC for the sake of their dying friends and to cure cancer, because an egocentric individual like myself am for sure playing for his entertainment.

Also, by your logic of online gaming frameset, the players that complain about being excluded from content because of their CR or gear should "get over it" since the game isn't about their x hours of gameplay (good or bad), but millions of others. How kind of you to generalize that millions of others do not mind constant wipes because of a player or two. Bravo.

EDIT: Since I had already reached a good decision based on the feedbacks, this thread is sorta dead to me now. This argument is going around in circles to the point of "do what you want, they'll do what they want"

Origin Crisis became stupid.

Not only were they asking for high CR players, but specifics also. Tanks especially. If you were not Ice, then you had zero chance of getting in. None.

And so every other type of tank was left behind while Ice could move on and progress.

OC wasnt down to skill, it was down to specifics, and the community determined what they were.

Actually Slade makes a very good point, one that I think a lot of people forget.

I'd put it this way: if you want your time not to be wasted/disturbed by other players, stick to the solo stuff . There, it can be all about you.

However, the instant you put yourself into a group situation, it stops being all about you, regardless of the group size or the type of content. At that point, you are dealing with anywhere between 1-7 other people and their priorities, wishes and ideas. How you deal with that is up to you, but it doesn't change the fact that it's not all about you and what you want to do when you choose to group.

this is everything.

op, just be grateful there's no kick feature for real life. your CR wouldn't be high enough bud.

What exactly does T2/TT3 and T4 content got to do with your thread? Of course I want to get my characters to the NEW content as quick as possible but that doesn't mean I don't do Smallville or Ace Chemical or League of Assassins or Arkham Asylum or anything else I can qued into or get an invite to join along the way. What I am saying is, in at least MY instance, I have played multiple characters and gotten them to CR 100+ doing Solo challenges, Duos, alerts and raids along with daily missions at Ace and Strykers after CR 70, In the Wasteland after CR 84 and in Gotham Under Siege after CR 100. I have experience playing as a Tank, A Troll, A Healer and a DPS so why would I feel the need to waste time buying every BIT of a type of GEAR when I can advance without it? I did that 2 years ago when I first got here and using replays I BUY the feats associated with collecting all the pieces of THAT style ... I certainly don't need the practice to hone my skills so aside from some misguided notion that some players have that I MUST do this THIS way or that THAT way who or what am I hurting?

To give you an example I took a healer into the ICW today and 23 minutes later emerged having provided 650,000 points of HEALING and not a single player on that team died once. That healer is currently sitting at CR 104 and wearing a combination of CR 92 and 90 armor along with a few Cr 93 pieces now that dropped during alerts. Does that SOUND like I don't know how to HEAL? If not then maybe you can explain why I would need to BUY every bit of CR 92 and then CR 94 armor before I even think about taking that healer to do CR 106 content once I hit that mark.

Maybe I should clarify I PLAY ten different characters all between CR 106 and Cr 99 and try to get as many as possible on line every day and advance them. Does that SOUND like I am rushing through content to get to end game? Even before the option was taken away I NEVER took an under geared under CR character into a walk in so I could grab a ton of Marks quickly and buy a pile of armor in ONE day. I actually got to the point where I left teams like that because I of tired of having to work harder to carry some one that had no business being on that Raid to begin with.