AM versus WM - or 'Why only pick one?'

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by Kimone, Nov 6, 2014.

  1. Minecrawler New Player

    One of the reasons why a large player base of this game plays it (Or used to play) is the fast paced and highly responsive combat system which is something many MMOs cant get right even today. WM kinda took away a large part of that speed and while it made some of the powersets accessible to more people, people who enjoyed that fast pace ultimately had to sacrifice (not in every case) their preferred way of game play to stay competitive. It also took away a lot of the uniqueness from different powersets, something the devs are trying to make right with the AMs now. So yeah...
    • Like x 2
  2. Korlick Loyal Player

    People only pick one because its easier. Its easier to go WM or AM only. And its easier to whine ("AM is weak...", "WM is boring..." ....)
    Going with a mixed loadout is a little bit harder in some cases.
    For example: Fire AM is not on pair with Fire WM, but you can go with a mix of both and put some nice numbers. But you have to time your rotations almost perfectly and yo need a quick WM combo, so you can hit the crit WM window without losing the Volatility and T.A. to get Mass Det hit hard.
    • Like x 1
  3. Jamie New Player

    Here are my reasons why I do not like WM at the moment.

    1) WM is the essentially the same despite the power so it all looks the same. It's boring but if people actually like it I can live with this.
    2) Not all AM's can keep up with WM's so some powers must use WM to stay competitive.
    3) There were a lot of negative changes to the game that the dev's said were needed to be able to balance everything.
    4) I find some of the combos are just horrible and wish we had more control over the combos.
    • Like x 3
  4. VariableFire Loyal Player

    You ask too much of a game where the smallest fraction of a second puts the toon on the ground, helpless as a newborn baby. Moreover, it sounds more like the hybrid is an accident instead of working as intended. I expect a nerf in a few months.
  5. lordexecution365 Loyal Player

    A little of topic here.

    Why not do as those with HL power did and post vids, and actually give a detailed instruction of why some of the other powers are not performing as one believes it should be, in another thread about that power.

    WM is a viable option to players who design a character that utilize WM and other weapon attacks with their power, that is what it was design for and should be equal to AM, and not so to those that use both.

    It is up to the player to decide how they want there toon to play and really they should be able to build there toon as they see fit and not be forced to do either/or when in reality it is up to the player themselves individually.

    You have 3 options now.

    Option 1 will do more damage using both WM and AM.

    Option 2 will do average damage using AM alone.

    Option 3 will do average damage using WM alone.

    Most of the argument seems a little off about WM vs AM.

    A video of the player using just AM with weapon attacks as before, using just WM with no AM attached and using both AM and WM could go a lot longer than just saying it sucks because of blah, blah, blah or it looks dumb or whatever can go a long way in disproving the effectiveness of AM vs WM but I doubt there ever will be such a vid that is up to date as such.

    Yeah there are tons of vids ( I'm 10% sure of the tons part as I rarely check out the vids) with WM with AM attached unless your Quantum, Ice or mental and probably with some of the more recent adjusted powers, but the more recent powers updated it may not be accurate because of the AM being applied or used with certain powers, but they still are using both (except Quantum, Mental or Ice of course).

    I am biased to WM as I feel that all roles can benefit from it, like i.e..Tanks who could use it like they are in a 1 vs 1 with a boss like a PVP map instead of playing hide go seek in fights.

    The whole argument to me seems like players are trying to handcuff players into there play style instead of allow the other player to play the way that works for them.

    I'd go as far as to seem these very players are really just trying to force other players to play as they do, since they have so much discontent with WM, they would prefer it to be gone all together.
    • Like x 4
  6. WonderValkyrie New Player

    IDC if a person prefers WM or AM it is their right to decide how they wish to play. I think if you're more concerned someone with WM is gonna beat you on the scoreboard, you dont sound like much of a team player and more all about yourself. I just wish the scoreboard would go away
    • Like x 4
  7. not_again Dedicated Player


    1. Who is singing the praises of AM damage? Weapon damage is still far superior to power damage (unless you have a power return mechanic and using a weapon without a cast bar)

    2. Why are mental and electricity mid range DPS abilities?

    3. Clipping still works with weapons without a cast bar. Once the cast bar is added to said weapons and the speed is reduced clipping is not a viable alternative. Why I hope no cast bar is added and people have the ability to play with a clipping style, the past and current direction of the game would indicate that this is merely an exploit that will be "fixed."

    Side note: Is it too much to ask for powers to do more damage than weapons. Other than this is a superhero game argument, powers use a resource while weapons attacks are unlimited.
    • Like x 2
  8. Opamp Committed Player

    Go checkout my fire dps guide.

    It's essentially the best you can do - which isn't that great.

    Fire is really bad right now - you'll want to use WM to do the most damage, clipping with SC. That's really it. You can throw in Firey weapon/neo/inferno - but that's about it.

    I would really like to use Fireburst but it sucks. Doesn't even stun ppl anymore.
    • Like x 1
  9. Kimone Luthor Genetech Clone


    they did just reduce the overall damage output of all Melee WM combos - for some odd reason ranged seemed to be untouched or even benefited in a couple areas (though some were reduced, noticeably to VERY noticeably) - even at that...

    after I started using the AM on my Electric character, although I *will* still use a WM combo as an opener in a fight segment there's not a dependency on it for damage any more and the actual damage amount I get now is noticeably improved as a result of using the AM. also, I haven't seen ANYTHING approaching the single-target damage output results Gadget's EMP AM users are getting now.
  10. Kimone Luthor Genetech Clone


    at which point in time Fire becomes interesting or challenging to play again, at least according to your description. That works too.
  11. Kimone Luthor Genetech Clone


    1.) I've never seen anyone posting a video where a mental character is hitting people for a 19K crit twice in the same 14 seconds. That ticket is writing itself right now.

    2.) I think of them as 'high' myself, but it takes a little effort to get 'high' range results out of them - which really, it should - still, I've been left in the dust by a high-end Rage or HL DPS and I'm not exactly a slouch.

    3.) Powers versus Weapons is a tricky discussion because of the nature of how powers hit versus how weapons hit. I think comic books themselves do a good enough job of supporting the idea of weapon / physical attacking being on par with other forms of combat damage (lightning, force blasts, fire, ice, etc.)

    Resources considered as a factor - Weapon damage is usually a little more focus or limited in its targeting abilities, doesn't have an available power interaction to improve damage, doesn't continue doing damage after an attack, and it usually takes a couple of hits for a weapon to deliver the same sort of damage that a power does. It is, however, 'free' damage.

    Powers in the past weren't capable of infinitely sustainable use until recently, though a good Troll changes this and as a solo player, within certain powersets you can maintain a functionally 'rechargeless' power-based damage output. They can hit more targets, potentially as hard or harder than even a top-end combo finish crit (and with AM or WM criting, this damage ability spreads) and inflict a wider variety of status detriments while doing so. Factor in power interaction or reciprocating / combinative damage abilities (like Menace in Mental or Electricity's ability to consolidate Electro-charge DOT effects into a single 1.2-2.4K DOT tick that's going to hit another 9-10 times before dissipation) and power-based damage is nowhere near the wounded animal people claim it to be.

    My point being that I think its a more even playing field than people want to admit to it being right now, and I also think it's unfair to insist upon having a valid 'powers only' playstyle while simultaneously insisting that you cripple the other side of that board. Do I think powerset-only based damage output is perfect, all across the board?

    No. My own experience with Fire says I'm gonna have some doing until that character is on par with my 'high end' DPS. But it IS getting there, very rapidly, and I don't think insisting upon the truncation of the ability to maintain a weapon-heavy playstyle is the way to accomplish this. I think the fact that any power IS a potentially valid form of power output now says that Weapons Mastery *IS* a useful idea and IS working. Did some parts need adjusting?

    Yes. I didn't complain when they removed Shield's '12K Crit WM Combo' because A.) I don't use Shield, and B.) That does seem excessive - I don't think you, in Troll, should be outdoing the kind of damage that I, in DPS, am producing. Especially if you're using a Shield and I'm using a two handed sword.
    • Like x 1
  12. Kimone Luthor Genetech Clone


    .... As an HL character, you have the option of fighting pretty much without using a weapon, period, and have for a long time. Just because you don't want to use a weapon doesn't mean I SHOULDN'T be able to use one.

    And if you don't know what AM is I'd suggest you learn, it's mostly 'what makes certain powersets (including HL) work effectively'
  13. Dylan Top5 New Player

    It's an option, just not a viable option.

    I tried what you said, I did about 1/3rd of the damage of the top DPS in lockdown:p
  14. Dylan Top5 New Player

    A little WM vs AM write up I did a couple months back from this thread:

    WM should not be on par with AMs


    The devs and players talk about WM being on par with AMs, even though we all know that weapon master is still out performing Advanced Mechanics.

    But I'm here to say, "why?"

    Why should weapon mastery, something that takes such a low amount of skill, can be played at max range and only really needs about 2 powers for a loadout even be considered to have the ability to be on par with advanced mechanics?

    Weapon Mastery:
    -brain dead easy rotations, very little timing and thought required to optimally utilize
    - typically can be played safely from max range
    -only needs about 2 main powers (a PI and a Burst). All powers with WM typically play the same.
    -absurd precision weapon damage and a guaranteed might crit that also hits for amazing damage
    -leaves enough space in the loadout for a robot sidekick, more free and easy damage

    Now, why should that do more damage or even be intended to be on par with:

    Advanced Mechanics:
    - requires more (usually all) loadout spots to maximize the AM.
    - requires more power points spent to get all abilities needed for AM
    - typically requires more risk, many powers must get into mid-melee range in order to maximize their AM
    - no guaranteed crits so damage can be inconsistent vs WM
    - requires a much greater knowledge and understanding of the power (more skill)
    - no room for the easy free damage of robot sidekick on the loadout

    So devs, please consider this when you balance AMs. WM should be the training wheels to get players started, but definitely not the epitome and max potential of a power. Skill and knowledge should be rewarded. All I am asking is that AMs just get a slightly higher dps potential than WM due to the factors I listed above. I'm not asking for anything crazy
    • Like x 2
  15. Kimone Luthor Genetech Clone


    Ehhh, I'd settle for equal. In a game where they tout customizability, the major factor influencing whether or not you just do the same two things constantly is 'you the player'. Besides, although I do use a lot of loadout space for my Electric character (five slots directly function as an AM chain, the sixth is a power interaction item) I still *have to* use four minimum for my Mental DPS's combat loadout. I CANNOT get the same results out of her otherwise.

    I still have to maintain multiple power interactions in order to get 'maximum results' out of my Mental DPS, even though she is using WM as a burst damage combo driver. With my Electric DPS, I have to make sure I use those five powers in a row, finish with Electrocute and not die before Electrogenesis is up and needs to be recast. It's literally 'hold the L2 button and press X, Square, Triangle, O' in a row, then 'hold R2 and press Square' so it can be argued that AM isn't exactly rocket science either.

    To get the raw, base results out of either system you need to follow a string - to get GREAT results from either, you need to incorporate the aforementioned awareness of power interactions, proper clipping and a functional knowledge of the difference between 'a group of small, easy-to-kill puds' and 'trying to fight a boss with identical tactics'.

    Do I think AM could be brought into line with the WM damage potential? Sure. Do I think that arbitrarily making it better or devaluing WM just to place it on a higher shelf is a good idea? No. If I have to put work into both to make either work, I should be able to get the same results.
    • Like x 1
  16. Raijin1999 Loyal Player

    I think one of the core problems with weapon mastery is that the entire weapon skill trees are associated with non weapon related permanent stat gains for every stat. If weapon skills were separated from stat gains entirely, a player using the AMs could negotiate around ever having to waste SP on multiple weapon combos and could instead dump SP into

    A ) - The power trees themselves. Allow players to spend SP on each individual power to buff it's effects (possibly cost too, depending on the gains.

    or

    B ) - Allow players to spend SP on a new stat tree for every individual stat (precision, might, vit, resto, defense, dom, crit power chance, crit power mag, crit heal chance, crit heal mag, crit weapon chance, crit weapon mag, crit power chance, crit power mag, stealth, etc). Doing this will allow players to directly control the build spec of their characters, highlight the effectiveness of saved armory settings further, and will allow players to much more accurately specialize in how they want their character to perform.

    In addition to this, an expansion to weapon mastery could be implemented, where players can continue to chain weapon switch combos to a third strike and fourth strike with escalating dps scaled (as in CORRECTLY SCALED) to match time spent attacking.


    Additional interactive features could be added for both weapons and powers, such as adding button sequences to the mix to enhance the offensive/defensive/support effects of powers and weapon attacks. IE: A controller trapping an enemy could repeatedly tap the power button once used to maintain a hold on the single enemy, though also locking the controller into that single function (expansion of raid mechanics, for instance). Every channeled/charge bar power or weapon attack could receive a damage bonus if a certain number of additional presses, or a specific sequence is correctly entered before the bar hits 100, or in some cases can maintain the attack as an ongoing ability, throwing more weight to such powers that have only resulted in a loss of dps as they lack a WM burst tie-in, or their damage out pales compared to a WM burst friendly ability.
  17. VariableFire Loyal Player

    Every time someone refers to WM as training wheels I shake my head. You do realize that to reach the full unlocking weapon mastery requires over 70 SP while AM can be obtained at Level 30 or earlier. If anything, AM should have ended up the training wheels as you get that just for reaching Level 30 while WM requires you to work for it.
    • Like x 3
  18. Dylan Top5 New Player

    lol, 70 sp is hard to get? Skill points are easy and the majority of them require no skill.

    So your telling me that a power specific mechanic that requires a deeper understanding of the class is training wheels for: "Hold Range > Hold Range > Burst Power"? Haha, whatever you say buddy :rolleyes:
  19. VariableFire Loyal Player

    It's harder than just reaching level 30, but then you think WM is just tapping buttons so your knowledge is already suspect.
    • Like x 2
  20. Dylan Top5 New Player

    Well said, weapon attacks are free damage, no resources are used yet it yields more damage than powers. How does that make sense?

    How can clipping match up or be on par with WM when range holds have a cast bar and therefore unclippable?

    It's not that anti-wm players want WM to just get deleted from the game, we just want clipping + AM to be a viable playstyle, and not for our powers to be nothing but a novelty.
    • Like x 1