Adding an option to play old instance without stats clamped would just solve everything

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by Jason Martin, Sep 6, 2021.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. KHALONofOGUN 10000 Post Club

    That's making the assumption that those players will never get better. Why think the worst of everyone? Yeah, I know there are a lot of bad players out there...but i'm willing to bet that with a little guidance many of them can improve. If you're viewing these players through the lens of your own difficulties, you're selling them and yourself short.

    Also, and this is really important to remember, the overwhelming majority of feats in the game (outside of time capsule stuff) are attainable through grind or coordination/following mechanics. That is to say that the number of feats that are burn checks are small. On some level it does suck when you have to rely on 3 to 7 to co-operate to get certain feats...but when you get those feats it should be a greater feeling because you actually accomplished something...getting everyone to work together for the same goal, that's greater (at least to me) than "finally got strong enough to not have to give a damn about teamwork".
    • Like x 3
  2. Reinheld Devil's Advocate

    Yet, here you are arguing that IF an option was put in place, maybe feats should also be removed...so isn't that kind of like pre-complaining about something that's not even happened yet? How about IF they made it optional...or basically like it was previous to the clamp it goes back to how it was BEFORE the clamp? The clamp option gives the opportunity to farm the marks and new gear, AND have this challenge everyone is clamoring for (right?) and an non clamp option puts it back how it was before, long resets, no maks, no ADDITIONAL gear. Hell add AQS on the non-clamp runs and I'd say we have finally reached greatness.

    BTW...not saying you can't suggest feats are removed, but it's kind of hypocritical to say 'that's how life goes' but lobby for feats to be removed IF an option was put in. If they add a non clamp option, they add it....if they don't they don't. I'd guess it's not likely to happen anyway, but I believe you and I had a conversation about how source would NOT be added back in endgame...the night before they were added back in. So...I guess let's see.

    And again....you keep missing my point on WHICH feats irritate me more. It's not the difficult 'no death' type ones...it's the co-ordination or slow burn feats...or the 'hit the button vs just burning the boss' feats. Burn check ones are questionable, but I haven't seen one group of randos in Necro stand on the buttons to release the wardens....and I've been in there a few times and said 'wardens'?....nope, keep plugging, that last 4 marks is just around the corner.....and I don't even need wardens, but I ask anyway in case someone does (and I'd guess some do...every time). I haven't seen one group in DD either NOT save the civilians or SAVE the civilians (which would just be a better strategy anyway)...but they will save or let just one go....for reasons? These things were easier before the clamp not because of burn or higher stats or whatever, but because you only needed a few people to participate in them, not 8 (save the getting in part), and in no run have I witnessed any teaching or mentoring of people who so obviously need it...so the trade off is not worth in (IMHO) for those noobs who still need these feats. So yeah, you can always LFG for these things....but have you looked at LFG lately? DCFarmingverseOnline is in full swing. FOS3 spams, FOS2 spams, bounty spams, pet run spams. Need to change the channel to LFS....Looking for Spams.

    Guess I just don't like being dependent on other players that much as MOST other players on this game are only looking out for themselves.
    • Like x 4
  3. Reinheld Devil's Advocate

    I know...that was kind of rhetorical. The point is that many of the players who say 'no clamp=no feats' got theirs while facerolling was a thing....so kind of hypocritical.
    • Like x 6
  4. Shalayah Committed Player

    This idea is bad simply because there’s no real incentive to run old content if you can’t get feats or potential marks from then. While style runs are cool and all. It wouldn’t make sense if you can get feats, marks or styles from old content clamped lmao.

    I mean I’m not against it. If players want to just stomp content for the fun of it and nothing more. Then I’m all for giving that option but it’ll quickly become a useless feature tbh because there’s no incentive to run the content which was why people didn’t run old content before lol.
    • Like x 2
  5. Plowed In Dedicated Player

    Bingo.

    [IMG]
    • Like x 1
  6. Proxystar #Perception

    I've actually more been posing the question about what's reasonable and said, marks and gear should be off the table, but left the issue with feats somewhat open. I personally felt that you probably shouldn't receive feats in an unclamped instance, because if we're being honest, at some point you're actually entirely trivializing the importance of the challenge.

    The thing some people are denying about the clamp is that it still makes things easier, they are running with this absolute falsehood that the clamp has made everything 'perpetually the same as it was when it was new and therefore progress can never be made'. That right there is an absolute lie, so we'll just establish and park that there.

    the actual truth is that - stat clamped content is not as easy as it was pre clamp but is certainly FAR more easier than it was when at level.

    This means feats are still easier today than when they were at level when content was new, they're just 'not as easy' as they were pre-clamp, so realistically to some extent there's been a game wide "buff". But only in the context that you can no longer "faceroll" not in the context that it's harder or the same than it was when new.

    This is simply arguably game balancing though and happens both ways. We're not the ones that get to decide how hard or easy a feat should ever become through progress, the developers do. the changes have of course already made, I don't need to advocate or argue anything in reality. You can advocate for a change to loosen difficulty, sure, I'm just not going to argue for it because I don't believe its a particular issue on this occasion.

    If they go your way though, then it's also certainly no problem to me and would certainly not get me upset though, let's make that perfectly clear.

    In terms of your "FarmingverseOnline" comment I think your biggest issue probably stems from the fact you're somewhat lone-wolfing it, lone-wolfs are always going to struggle under this system, especially with feats, because you're reliant on other people to achieve something and if those people are randoms, they're far, far less invested in helping you.

    It's likely that they're in the content for their own reasons, whatever they might be, could be getting gear, could be getting a style, could be getting marks, could be fun and all of those things are going to run against their motivation to sit there and spend time helping you when they've got an agenda to the contrary - I know that might sound rough, when you'd think in an ideal world we could all run around in a meadow, picking flowers and playing nice, but it's simply not reality.

    This is why I couldn't stress more greatly the importance of joining a league and building a network of friends, they are who truly help you get the feats and things done, one because they've invested time in building an actual relationship with you and want to help and two, they likely share the same objective.

    I'd say you're upset, but I think you're probably just more frustrated that other players don't share your own objective, you're frustrated other people are farming FOS3, farming FOS2, farming pets. But Reinheld, they're doing those things because they have an equally important alternative objective. They're farming their own different feats or even save the universe progress.

    You cannot begrudge them for having that different objective simply because they've decided to put all their effort in to it and not help you with feats in old content.

    Some feats you just simply DO NOT do with random PUGS, particularly feats that require communication and co-ordination because you're setting yourself up for ongoing frustration and failure.

    I'm highly confident that if you built yourself a good network of friends and joined a quality active league you'd be less worried about these feats and probably as a result far less worried about arguing for an unclamped option so you can continue to PUG them in the hope blind luck allows some of these to pop it would seem :)
    • Like x 2
  7. Bipolar Diva Well-Known Player

    I also have plugged almost all of the older content newly named teirs 1-6. Only fails were lack of pickups, dos stacking and failure to read the instructions on screen. Content is still easy when all roles work together. Solos not sure yet.
    • Like x 1
  8. King Bakes Well-Known Player

    Haven't read every post on this thread but thought I'd share my two cents.

    IMO there should not be an option to turn the stat clamp on/off. The game never should've gotten to a point where everyone became 'one-shot gods'. This meant that people became lazy and started ignoring the need of learning mechanics because they can kill everything before the mechanics even happened.

    Everyone who is saying 'I've grinded the game and got my CR to maximum level so I deserve to be powerful and one shot anything'... No. Just no.

    CR is and has been almost irrelevant for such a long time. The only relevance it has is literally just to allow you into certain content. It's super easy to level up and isn't much of a grind whatsoever. If you want to be super 'powerful' then get your SP up. I can almost guarantee 90%< of the people complaining about the stat clamp have less than 300sp. There is the argument that the clamp has made it 'more difficult' to earn feats, but as previous posters have said, the content is still FAR easier now compared to when the content dropped a few years back. Especially considering the clamp means you're 10 CR levels higher than whatever the CR is for that episode.

    Also, do you not find it boring going into content and just one-shotting everything? You spend 5 minutes in a raid and then log off. It's so pointless. This clamp has made the entire game fun again. We now need to re-learn mechanics and we're actually in raids for longer than 5 minutes which is what most of the playerbase want IMO. As it stands there's not many reasons for 'vets' to go back into older content except the styles and pets that drop, but given time I'm sure the devs will introduce more incentives.

    This game was seriously dying after the last dlc that came out whether people want to admit it or not. I'm used to logging on and seeing tons of 'vets' on my friends list during prime eu hours if you like. But everyone I'd spoken to had quit and moved onto other games because all there was to do was literally the current daily missions, the elite raids once a week which weren't even anywhere near the usual elite standard difficulty wise, and then the bounty missions too.

    IMO this update has resurrected the game and will be beneficial for both older players and newer ones going forwards.

    Someone online posted a funny anology but it's actually quite good:

    Giving people the option to turn the stat clamp on/off is like changing a flat tyre and then putting a nail in the new tyre. You're not actually fixing the problem at all.
    • Like x 1
  9. Reinheld Devil's Advocate

    I'm not sure I ever said anything was 'too hard' since the clamp. If I did, I'd guess it was regarding Elite (have only tried one in live, GomE and it went ok, but I got DCd due to weather...was down too long to hope for a return), or 'no death' type feats as we are just squishier now. And as I mentioned with the Wardens example...I don't need these (Let me reiterate louder so you don't have to repeat yourself...again... I DON'T NEED THESE) but I ask, in case someone did. I just like to be considerate of the others in the group...you know, kind of like I did BEFORE the update. But you are right....it's silly to ask....I should stop asking and just full steam ahead...but wait, isn't just bulldozing through content how we got here? Meh....not my problem I guess. Any runs I've done since the update are specifically to get marks...just like everyone else...or check the tick on the daily/weekly 'work' I'm assigned. If I needed something for myself, I'd get it done, although not sure how that helps anyone else.

    As far as the Farmingverseonline...if you can honestly say you can't see it when looking at LFG...well, I don't think you spend much time in LFG. Good for you, not so good for the rest of the players. I won't deny the importance of a good list of friends or leaguemates....I just don't like having to depend on it as I did not before. And I was always able to get stuff done...even with pugs....although I almost never pugged if I actually needed something 'hard'...it was more just for something to do or if I saw someone shouting in LFG for assistance. Pugs were reasonably decent beforehand as MOST People who were queued into a specific raid or batch of raids were in there for almost anything other than marks(there weren't any)...so getting something done on top of whatever they were there for, was not a big issue...sometimes it was a bonus. Now if you are queuing up it's probably for the primary reason of getting marks. And most anything else will slow that down, moreso after the update. So it's not really 'fixing' anything, just making the scenery different as you faceroll....only slower now.

    And as at least part of this update has been to help all these poor, defenseless noobs who were unable to get into...and therefore complete specific things....how is 'join a league' and 'build a group' any more of a solution than what they had before? That option was always on the table(easier in fact as you only needed fillers to queue for most runs), yet according to many was NOT really an option....so we needed clamping and marks to....what....? Make building a group easier? Make joining a league more accessible? Sure...I suppose maybe. I'd disagree it's any easier, but I'm sure you will try to convince me otherwise...I know I see your leaguemate actively recruiting for "Loot" daily and I believe there are minimums in his shout....I doubt those have been lowered since the update to accommodate more noobs. Even if there are not, most leagues have them and I doubt any have been loosened.

    As far as discussing this any further....I'm dropping out again. I like a lively debate, but not an infinite one. I'm tapping out....again.

    How did I get roped into this again? Oh, yeah...I replied....I'll have to stop doing that except on threads I start.
    [IMG]
  10. The Con Well-Known Player

    *sigh*

    Just saying things doesn't make it true... Not knowing the future, one can't state for a definite what this update's future impact will be...

    The problem with the tire thing... is that fixed flat tire is meaningless if the car has no gas.

    As you have pointed out: "ALL THERE WAS TO DO WAS LITERALLY THE CURRENT DAILY MISSIONS"....

    That's because: THEY WERE THE ONLY THINGS OFFERING SOURCE MARKS AS REWARDS.

    Not being stat-clamped has no bearing on that fact.

    Putting source marks back in older content is what makes the car move.... making it more time-consuming/frustrating for players who paid their years of doing that material when it was at level....

    ....just might be the nail in the tire.:(
  11. MsTickle Fate Devoted Player

    Fun?

    I know that's a weird thing to look for in a game....
    • Like x 2
  12. MsTickle Fate Devoted Player

    Wait, so for ten years you've opposed getting feats in unclamped instances?

    Or are you saying that you were fine with it for a decade, but now you oppose what you were fine with for a decade because... why, exactly?

    I'd feel more comfy with the argument for clamping if Mepps hasn't consistently said for the past ten years umpty times, over and over and over again, that the solution to feats being too difficult is to revisit them way later when you're much stronger.

    Never did he say "but we don't want it to be too easy." Not in ten years. What he instead actually did write was "we have no current plans for stat-clamping."

    I have trouble understanding why something could be fine with the game for ten years but suddenly a bad idea now because... reasons?

    But to be clear, I don't object to clamping. I'd just like it to be a choice. Choice is good.

    A couple of days before clamping was instituted, I went to Deluge CC and soloed Starro Conquerer, just for fun, because I hadn't done it before. It *was* fun.

    Now I have that choice taken away from me. I have less available fun.

    That simple.

    And nobody can tell me I'm "wrong" for finding fun where i find it or for finding it in the game as it had been for years.
    • Like x 5
  13. Proxystar #Perception

    I'm not realistically talking about you specifically, you can replace your name with anyone's my position remains the same.

    The biggest reason people want to get rid of the clamp and implement an optional system that retains the ability to obtain a feat is because it is 'easier' to do it that way. I'm not without sympathy of that view or desire, but let's not call an apple a peach, when it's blatantly an apple.

    We can write heaps of words back and forth to each other all we like, but that's really the crux of the matter, how easy obtaining a feat should be is highly subjective, you, whether you're advocating for yourself or others are saying it should be as it was, the developers are saying "no we think it should be something else", otherwise they'd never have introduced the clamp in the first place.

    Changes occur, no one likes them, not even necessarily me, where we all differ though is the speed at which we'll often accept change, whether and to what extent we adapt to them or whether we continue to try and fight the changes.

    You're welcome to continue to ask for the previous system to return to some extent through an optional system that provides for easier feats, the devs may or may not provide it you, that's there choice. I am however, simply expressing my view that they aren't that hard,. while clamped if the group is co-ordinating for it. You don't have to accept my view , by any means and I get that we're both just outlining the logic behind our viewpoints. What we're really arguing about here is our subjective views about how 'hard' something should ever be, which is entirely subjective and I acknowledge that our views differ.

    In terms of FarmUniverseOnline again, I'm not oblivious to it, I see it in LFG, the difference here, is that it's not my place to tell them not to do it, it's effectively none of my business what those 8 people or 8 groups are doing.

    If they want to go mass manufacture source marks in groups of 8 that's their choice, they're likely doing it for a reason, they just introduced a raft of expensive pets, villain/hero styles, pvp styles and so forth that cost a lot of marks. Those things come with their own feats, feats that people are going to want/need. It should not have come as a surprise that people would gravitate to high yielding source mark runs with in mind.

    Eventually they'll get sick of it, dissipate and move out to other content to retain interest, they're doing it presently because they have a focus in mind, other people have a different focus. The people that want random omnibus will queue, the ones that want source marks will farm what gives them the most peoples focus continually shift like the ebb and flow of an ocean tide, you can't dictate where people will go, nor try to control it, If you want something in particular, let's say an instance feat then you have to find the likeminded individuals who also want/need it, not chastise other people who are doing a different instance.
    • Like x 2
  14. Proxystar #Perception

    If fun is the sole objective, not a single reward is required ;)

    Fun is the reward.
    • Like x 2
  15. Doctor Nova Devoted Player

    Solowing, I'm getting to some of his older videos and I'm liking them all so far. ty. gg
    • Like x 2
  16. King Bakes Well-Known Player

    Firstly, I said IMO. I didn't say it was a fact that this update will have a huge positive impact on the game's future.

    And you're correct that only the newer content offered source marks... but that doesn't actually have an impact on what I was saying whatsoever. The comment I made that you just referred to is about veteran players not new players. Most vet players I know are actually at the point where source marks are (were) near enough useless and we have thousands stacked up due to the fact we have max arts, all styles etc. And therefore have nothing to spend source marks on. The MAIN reason why I said we had nothing to do was because we've completed all feats in old episodes so realistically the only thing to do was get as much of the new currency as possible to then buy the new rewards that they introduce every month or so.

    As I said above, until this episode source marks were useless for me and many others. Now that this update has happened I actually have things to spend source marks on (pets etc). So if I wanted to farm source marks then yeah I could re-run old content to farm them. But again, my post wasn't predominantly about source marks anyways. And either way, I'd much rather 'earn' the source marks by participating in content that actually requires some effort rather than simply going into instances and one-shotting everything.

    I really feel like most people that have issues with the clamp are actually people who suck at mechanics. This could be because they themselves don't want to learn mechanics. Or maybe they know the mechanics but decide to blind queue rather than queuing up with a league or an LFG group and then get put with people who don't know mechanics and don't want to listen. Either way, I don't see any valid excuses to get rid of the stat clamp tbh.
    • Like x 3
  17. Proxystar #Perception

    Have I opposed getting feats in unclamped instances for 10 years?

    No, not at all, it was the system that was in place, I wasn't opposed to it and in fact my track record of opinion would verify that this was always a concern of mine. I knew full well all along that within a clamped system "feats would be the primary pressure point".

    Like you say people have always gone back to get the more difficult feats when they over-powered them, that's how the game, at the time was structured, I begrudge no one for doing so nor do I think they were doing anything wrong, what I would say also though, is that obviously all the feats introduced in the game are evidentally still 'possible' to achieve at level.

    A player is only restricted from getting a feat, based on either their own skill capacity or the skill capacity of those individuals around them within an instance, the expectation of skill was then somewhat loosened through over-powering the content allowing players with less skill to accomplish that, which they previously could not or and this important could not achieve because the people they relied on within the instance were not as skilled.

    With that point being established, the key question and issue being raised here presents itself, "how easy should it be or become and how much should a player eventually over-power an instance in order to obtain a feat".

    Under the previous system, people could virtually progress to the point where they could face-roll the feats by themselves and become entirely independent of anyone else in the group eliminating their reliance upon another persons lack of skill or a co-ordinated group could get feats they may not have otherwise got earlier because their power has increased.

    A blunt example of this are feats that stem around a burn check - take "stake well done" or "raving mad" as the classic examples, as you progress those feats become easier because your damage output increases, your ability to survive increases and so on and so forth.

    I am not realistically opposed to the previous system that we had, but I am however, open to the prospect and honest thought that, "perhaps it had gone too far", so much so that the effort required and point behind the feat had been entirely diminished.

    If that's what we're actually doing, effectively almost just working through the formality of handing a person the feat for almost nothing, then perhaps we should just be putting old feats on the marketplace for $1 each, it's just as effortless and at least it would be supporting the game?

    The devs having gone through these changes, have ultimately said to all of us, we don't want the feats to be "that easy".

    Now the important part here is that when they've done this, they've not said at all you won't progress and find these feats easier, that's is entirely incorrect and I know there are people around here pedaling that misinformation, but they're wrong.

    Under the stat clamped system you do still "feel more powerful" than you were when the content you are running was new, the feats are still "easier" than they were when the content was new, it's just not going to be "as easy as it was pre clamp" but that's only because pre clamp you could basically 'sneeze' and obtain a feat.

    When Mepps told you they had no plans for "stat clamping or "go back and get feats later they will be easier", he didn't do or say anything wrong, he told you what he knew at the time and it remains true at the time.

    Also if you take the statement of "go back and get feats when they're easier" or even "go back and get them when you're more powerful" that remains true also, you are still more powerful now than you were when any of this content was new.

    if and when Wonderverse moves off into the clamped sunset, you will know for sure because you have a very recent 'benchmark' you have now progressed through 2.5 subsequent DLC's (Legion, Flashpoint, SaveUniverse) you'll be able to go in to Wonderverse and get a good feel for how easy it is and reference that to how hard it felt when you remember Wonderverse being new.

    You already know that Wonderverse is by far easier today than it was 12 months ago (or however roughly long ago) it was when it came out, those feats within Wonderverse are already easier today than they were 12 months ago.

    If that remains the same then I have to question where the issue is? The primary question then remains the same "how much easier, does a feat need to become"? You can of course decide that for yourself.
    • Like x 5
  18. The Con Well-Known Player

    This is true... I overstated by using "definite"... which you did not apply.

    Apologies for overstepping your opinion.


    As far as "mechanics vs power"... We'll never see it eye to eye... as I worried about mechanics when they were relevant to the level we were playing at the time.

    We move past that worry as we progress.... and I don't see the fun (or longevity of the game) of having it be never-ending.

    I don't see a valid reason to have initiated in the first place.

    If you want mechanics... Do elite.
    If you want challenge... Don't wear endgame armor.
    If you don't want to be carried by end-gamers... Form your own group of peers.

    Leave others to play the game that they want/earned it to be played.
    • Like x 1
  19. King Bakes Well-Known Player

    I'm curious, why do you 'worry' about mechanics? That makes it sound as if you're one of the people who struggle with them.

    But yeah I agree mechanics are for elite... Is that not the case though with or without the stat clamp? Only difference is, with the stat clamp people actually HAVE to do the mechanics in elite now. Whereas before you could one-shot everything so mechanics were essentially non existent.

    As I said in my previous post, IMO the game never should have reached a point where being a one-shot god was even an option. So we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

    I believe that no one should be baby carried through content. I think every person should have to 'hold their own' to an extent no matter whether it's elite or non elite content. The arguments you just made after you said 'I don't see a valid reason to have initiated in the first place' gives me the impression you are one of the players who like to be baby carried through content.

    I'll explain why I think this stat clamp is going to be extremely beneficial to the game. As it stands I really feel like most vet players only run elite content with select groups - meaning they run with their friends and leagues and no one else. This means that newer players, or even players who are fairly experienced at the game, aren't able to complete endgame elite content. This could be due to a lack of skill or maybe lack of knowledge of mechanics. The only way these players will get better is if they're actually tested in content - but obviously it'd be nice if they're able to complete the content too. This is why I really like the stat clamp. It's going to improve the skills of so many players which will be nice to see and it means more people will be completing elite endgame content. If the stat clamp didn't happen, tons of players would never learn a single mechanic and they'd forever be bad at the game. Whereas now, they can enter old content and learn plenty whilst still being reasonably powerful.
    • Like x 3
  20. Proxystar #Perception

    You do still continue to get more powerful in the forum of artifacts, augments and stat points bleeding through the clamp. In the current iteration of the clamp you are already more powerful in that content than you were when that content was new.

    You do not need to 'worry' about the mechanics as much as you did when the instances were at level, but not 'worrying about the mechanic as much' is not the same as 'ignoring the mechanic', you should not be able to just 'outright ignore the mechanic' so much so to the extent that it may as well never exist.

    You tell people that if they want mechanics, they should do elite, what I would tell you though, is that 'normal' isn't designed to be 'absent of mechanics', elite has 'additional mechanics' not just 'mechanics'.

    You don't get to face-roll things just because they're of 'normal' difficulty
    • Like x 4
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.