A Precision and Might Comparison

I just learned me some good stuff

Thanks Remander, Sore, and Shiny Mackerel

There is something else to note here as well that doesn't seem to be part of the discussion so far. . . DoT stacking.

While I certainly agree, the biggest imbalance between Might vs Prec is power cost, Weapon Mastery alleviates that to some degree since now everyone can effectively "combo".

But Weapon Mastery doesn't address what in my opinion is the other major factor from a balancing perspective, which is the ability to stack DoTs (including "proc" damage from say Initimidation).

For example:
Fire
Ice
Electricity
Earth
Sorc
Quantam

All can stack no more than 3 DoTs (not including anything from iconics).

Mental
Gadgets
Nature

Can do 4 +

Rage
Celest
Light

Can also do 4+

Fire really only has 2, same with Ice, and Electricty, and these powers also have no "proc" damage from their buff powers (only increased crits).

Quantam some might say have 4, but really it's only 2. No dps is going to use Gravitonic Field (pot power) as it's only 4 ticks for very minimal dmg, and Warp barrage is also only 3 ticks but generally speaking goes un-used b/c it really needs destablized PI to be effective. Singularity is also only 3 (maybe 4) ticks.
The only true DoT in Quantam is Gravity Well, and then it's weapon proc power. Sorc kinda falls in the same boat, as it has Pets, and Circle, and then. . . Comparing those to other powers, all of them have DoTs with at least 5+ ticks.

Mental has 4 (PF/Pyro, TB, Menace, Mass Terror), Gadgets has 3-4 (Cryo-Foam/Fear Gas (cancels Napalms dots), Cryo-Field, Intimidation, Stasis Field), Nature has 4 along with it's Prec or Might buffs.

Yet the combo based powers also have 4+ and of course use less power b/c the can be all precision and all have a Precision buff.

This is why Mental and Gadgets and Nature can still hang on the top tier DPS front so long as they have power. Sorc and Quantam can almost keep up with the right mods / loadouts, but not quite, and the tank powers and Electricty completely fail.

Now I'm not necessarily arguing that all powers should have an abundance of stack-able DoTs. But if they don't. . . they should have very stout buffs and/or burst damage. Even with weapon mastery, iconics, and the Enduring Damage mod, Fire for example still wouldn't be able to compete with Rage/Celest/Light (or even Mental / Gadgets / Nature) b/c it can only stack 2 dots, and it's burst dmg / buffs don't re-balance it. . . Certainly weapon mastery gets it closer. . .but it's still not going to be quite enough.

Yeah, WM does take this conversation in a different direction, Arach. I see your point. TrueOlympus would love that last bit. Hopefully, the work they intend to do on Earth and Electricity soon, as well as the planned "awesome" mechanic implementation they have planned for the other powersets, will help bridge those gaps. We'll have to wait and see.

Fire actually has 3 and a half stackable Dots.

• OverHeat
• Inferno
• Enflame
• Burning Dot(barely counts)

They just all suck apparently. I know Overheat is bugged and weak. I know inferno is probably our best DoT. That's not a great thing.

Now from the stand point of Range Dot Application Fire only has 2 and a half lol.... so yea you are right

Can you use Overheat and Enflame at the same time? Don't they overwrite each other? If not my apologies. . .
although curious, how many ticks?

But either way you see the point. . . it's not just X amount of dmg, but X amount of dmg within a given window. DoT stacking allows you to really pour things on (like say dox bosses), but only if you have powers that can do that. . .and of course with Gadgets, Mental, Fire, and Ice you also have to worry about overriding someone elses dots, which you almost never have to worry about with the other powers.

No idea, how many ticks. Evey time I test it on a sparing dummy it glitches out. Doesn't help the Overheat itself also has a tendency to glitch even in live play

Quality information, and I thank you folks for compiling it.

I'm in agreement with Arachninja on several points: My experiences with WM have shown that dependance on power is now greatly diminished - everyone now has access to "bursty" damage - and power sets with more DoTs will be in the foreground.

Here is hoping for something great on the power set passess in the works.

I've been saying this since they announced WM. When big damage is coming at the back end DoTs will rule. And with Nature it is even more pronounced due to how Hive Mind now works. Other powersets have to refresh all their DoT's, but not Nature. The main difference now is that as we get overgeared, it's not longer gonna be burst damage over dots. It's gonna be fast WM combos over slow WM combos. Depending on how this all goes down, we may very well end up being further away from balance than we are now (another thing I have been saying all along).

thumbs up for math

why are soda buffs, trinkets , self bufs that certain powersets provide, and mods favoring precision.
why does t5 gear give 4might and 1,5k prec, and mod give 50might or 50prec. why does soda buffs and trinkets give more prec than might? why doesnt the gear then give (3kmight 3k prec).

Honestly, I think a lot of the stat and buff changes, as well as WM, are intended to increase damage efficiency, so controllers can broaden their role to be more than just batteries. Of course, only a Dev could confirm that.

But the devs just announced yesterday that if nature uses their dots, wm will give no encanced might damage, only regular. You still get the enhanced precision damage though.

As of now, WM combos do way more damage than your powers. Stack precision, get a couple of sheilds and a Prec buff like carnage or bloodlust and spam WM combos to top the scoreboard. Thats it. You don't even have to use your powers at all. Wth is this ? People going full prec on powers like nature, gadgets, mental..Like at this moment this game is so out of balanced. Might is being absolutely crushed by Prec.

Well, when you think of it, all WM is doing is giving every powerset the ability to be a precision combo powerset. If you want to use WM, it is to your benefit to stack precision, as you are going to tilt your damage ratio toward precision. I've tested Celestial with WM, and even the quick WM combos don't help you. They actually hurt DPS. Basically, if your powerset already has a precision combo system, you will not benefit as much, if at all. Now, you could substitute WM for your own combo system, but that's a bit convoluted.

Well Nature is touch and go, right now WM doesn't really help it as much b/c the DoTs themselves don't receive the same boost (if any) than a burst dmg power would. (same with other powers just using Nature as an example).

When you consider Gadgets/Mental, they have lots of varied types of DoTs. Same with Rage/Celest/Light. Nature has basically all the same DoTs but are allowed to stack.

Fire,Earth,Quantam,Sorc,Electric, and Ice though all greatly suffer b/c they don't have that many DoT based powers to begin with and in many cases they cannot be stacked effectively.

WM solves this somewhat by allowing your burst dmg to be a lot bigger, but then again, everyone else can do that as well, so there is still a balance problem. WM does solve the power issues . . .but still doesn't quite get things over the hump.

There are 3 viable solutions that I see. .. .although before I go into that, remind me. . .do DoTs of the same type, but from different powers overwrite each other? I can't remember if this is true anymore. For example: Gadgets DPS->Napalm, then Fire DPS -> Meteor, then Mental DPS->Pyro. All those are "Burning", but from what I recall they don't overwrite each other. Only 2 Fire DPS both casting burning would. . .

For solutions:
1.) Fire/Earth/Quantam/Sorc/Electric could all just get increased base damage in some burst powers. Easy solution, kinda boring but easy. Another variant of this would be to have said powers receive a slightly higher boost from PI / WM.

2.) Give those powers more stackable DoTs. This is a big deal b/c it means re-vamping powersets again to a degree. Granted some do need it (say Quantam / Electric on the DPS side).

3.) (My latest idea) DoT intensity. Burning, Crushing, Electrified, perhaps Frostbitten, Graviton Charged could all have an "intensity" factor.
If a fire user hits something with Burning that works like it does today. But say a Gadgets user hits something with Burning (napalm), and then the Fire user also hits the same thing wtih Burning. B/C the Fire user is all about Fire (and burning), have the Burning dot from the fire user also "use the PI" as well as applying the PI. In short you get a level of intensity added. You don't get more DoTs. . . but just stronger DoTs, and you could let that intensity level stack 3-4 times. You'd only do this with powers that are based in some type of PI that makes sense for "intesity". For example a Gadgets user can cause burning, but he cannot intensify burning.

Any of those 3 changes (or some combination) would help a lot, b/c as it stands right now, the more DoTs you can stack, the more dmg you can put out, and many powers can't do that. . .

I do recall reading that, and I agree - as it has been and stands today, speed is everything in this game - hopefully they'll ovrcome that by compensating the slower attacks/powers to yield higher damage.

Something I want to ask of the people who've been number crunching (may well have missed or misunderstood in the overall analysis in this thread if it has already been said), is if Precision and Might calculate differently, is it "correct" having more or less equal amounts to spec/mod?

Not sure I'm understanding your question, Anhur. Could you clarify, please?

But the damage the dots have been dealing will more than make up for losing extra might damage from WM. Besides, those dots will still be crit'ing from your normal crit chances. All that does is close the distance a little bit. Nature is still gonna be stupid good.

I think this proves that Might and Prec isn't that slanted towards might. I simply think Devs give Combo powers a higher base damage.

Sure - so the "Precision or Might" debate is on more even footing with WM around the corner (power consumption is a far lesser factor because we damage players are going to have to use weapon combos more readily for the highest damage out possible) - the end play of the analysis reads that we cannot state "Precision beats Might" because it all depends on different variables - but if Might and Precision do not alter damage at an equivalent ratio (ie 1 Might is not equal to 1 Precision), why is it essentailly equal quantities in the WM trees, modding etc - if the calculations are not the same? Is it an oversight and the base damage of Might/Powers is intended to be elevated? Does our equipment stats need altering? Or maybe I am misunderstanding? Hope that made more sense.

I agree. So will sorcery