A history of DCUO using FEATS to teach "Not all enemies need to be killed on your way to the boss!"

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by Catastrophic Repercussion, Nov 9, 2021.

  1. Catastrophic Repercussion Dedicated Player

    In honour of Harlequin's teaching, I won't be referring to the elephant in the room as "skip adds", even though we live in the world of YouTube so "skip ads" just come so natural to us and now you are already tired of the term "skip adds". How about "mob hopping"?

    Since this subject isn't going to die down anytime soon and our community manager appears to be kidnapped from his duties, I thought I'd make a new thread with a more educational bent.

    This list is a bit lengthy, even though I've already narrowed it down quite a bit to exclude enemies that are blatantly inconsequential to the instance's progress (Coast City, Batscape), enemies that are part of open-world operations (Hands of Fate, Origin Crisis), enemies that if killed immediately causes more trouble unless another objective is completed first (Crown of Thorns, Clock Tower), enemies that ignoring them is crucial to a speed feat (Darkness Rises, Batcave Breach) or enemies that spawn during a boss fight to be spared for feats (Watchtower Containment Facility, HQ Orientation). (Hey look it's literally skipping adds!) Why yes, even the exclusion list for potential points to be made is lengthy.

    Why use feats to prove a point though? Since there's an argument about whether skipping is the intended play (and we'll get back to that later), these are the times when intentions on how to play are unmistakable.

    First, we have Leader Of The Pride from Gotham University Warehouse, where you avoid killing the pups before converting them, and Play On from the Flashback Duo that's about not destroying sonic emitters. These are more about being careful but this is an important skill for skipping and would lay the foundation of what's to come.

    The Origin Crisis iconic solos gave us Silent Hunter that is literally about avoiding detection by the mobs and Controlled Collateral Damage, preventing scientists getting knocked out. These are more genuine mob ignoring and requires you to be careful without powers of your own choosing. There is also Brainiac Robots Again?! from the Nexus of Reality raid to not wake up any powered-down Brainiac robots, literally optional enemies that you trigger either intentionally or carelessly.

    During the monthly episode days, there's Eight is Great from Desecrated Cathedral Alert, where you don't kill Greedy Imps on your way to James so they will spawn during the boss fight, Elite Restraint from Blackest Day (Elite) operates on a similar principle but only on one specific construct, Riot Quiet(ly) from Prison Break is the classic avoid detection from prison guards and Put the Fun in Malfunction from Phantom Zone that is technically about the boss fight but since you can (very easily) destroy the turrets before he spawns this qualifies.

    On our way to the shining example, Ninja, Ninja, Ninja, Ninja, Man-Bat, Man-Bat! from Rise of the Bat requires you to not defeat Talia's Elite Guards before the boss fight though you really need to go out of your way to fail this, Drone Patrol from Injustice System have one part requiring to avoid detection from SWAT drones, then... oh my...

    Here it is, the moment you've all been dreading for:

    You Got This

    False Idols provides the purest skipping feat possible by telling you to ignore everything outside of the building. Literally, everything outside of the building can be ignored. You have to defeat those inside the building, but not the ones outside. The feat that everyone is taught skipping as a genuine option and rewarded for it.

    Birds of Prey have 2 classic avoid detection feats: Spider, Spider, in the Hall and Untrapped Resources
    but even when you are not attempting them, optional enemies from those instances are still quite easy to outrun, then there is Legion: HQ Orientation, getting a Fail rank score for the fitness test by destroying nothing at all during those 2 minutes... okay I'm kidding but this is so fun to execute it's hard not to mention. Besides, you shouldn't destroy more than what is needed when you need a low score.

    As you can see, this game telling you not to kill everything in sight has been a thing since the early days. It's not a new phenomenon. The intention is clear.

    But is the intention of developers for us to skip at every possible turn? The answer is: their intention is always subject to change, either through time or personnel, likely both, as demonstrated by the drama surrounding this year's Throne of the Dead. If they don't want you to, they can make stage unlock to trigger only when all enemies within an area are defeated, it's so easy to find this I don't think you need me to provide you with a specific example.

    The real question is if skipping is trivializing difficulty, the stated concern to introduce stat clamp to more content. No, it doesn't, as skipping is an acquired skill. To be careful. To be observant. To be agile. At times it needs you to be resourceful when optimal options aren't available and to employ different tactics as complications arise. It is for these reasons that the above feats are made, laziness won't help but perfect execution does. It's also a reason why outside of DCUO, speed runs get endless fascination (though that is another whole can of worms that we're not unpacking here).

    Skipping might not be for everyone, I don't do it when I got a tank whose artifacts are barely level 80 (and sometimes not even that high, yes those tanks appear in Themyscira Divided Elite and we still got it done, yay me) and of course communication is important, but I hope this little trip down memory lane can provide another perspective to those who do not subscribe to this way of playing, maybe had a little fun, and if you find my points objectionable please be concrete in your rebuttal and not spamming insults or youtube videos with no substance. Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.
    • Like x 10
  2. willflynne 10000 Post Club

    There's a fair argument to be made that those feats are more about teaching players to follow a certain set of guidelines than teaching them not all enemies need to be taken out. Mission success is still possible if players don't accomplish those feats, so unless not getting the feat means the mission fails then I think there's some question as to what they're trying to teach the players.

    Also, from my understanding mob/add skipping is done to move the instance along quicker and finish things faster. And while I can't speak to all of the feats listed, I do know that many times going for those feats slows things down.
    • Like x 2
  3. Catastrophic Repercussion Dedicated Player

    When the feat explicitly requires players to not take all enemies out, then that is a goal of the feat and the methods of how players achieve that can overlap with skipping tactics. There seems to be an impression among no-skippers that all enemies are meant to be taken out, thus this list exists to disprove that, whether players are able to execute it properly is irrelevant.

    Here I'm explaining skipping as a means, not the end result, hence I emphasized the need to be careful (and other attributes needed) and have not made a "skipping is faster" argument, as the latter is not the stated goal here. You'd have noticed I exclude speed feats at the beginning. Even then, prolonged contact can be detrimental to many of those scenarios.
  4. SuperCanuck New Player

    He is probably on Holidays, just throwing that out there before people start throwing Mepps under a bus about threads not being closed this week.
  5. Catastrophic Repercussion Dedicated Player

    shhh don't ruin my conspiracy (plus gone for 2 days in a row is peculiar, we'll see if he pops up today...)
    though maybe we can have other moderators lessen his burden as well, there was another spammer this past weekend. His job isn't limited to the forums after all.
  6. Trykz Dedicated Player

    As a person who leans further into the no skip camp than the skip camp, but who doesn’t mind either way as long as the group agrees, I must say that is an excellent argument for the “opposing” faction. Take it down now please.
    I kid, great work making valid points. The thing I always come back to is the argument will always go to the people trying to play the content the way it was designed to be played. You’ve done a fair job of setting up an argument that some content was in fact designed to at the very least, accommodate skipping, if not out right meaning for it to be skipped. I won’t be running out to skip adds any time soon, but I will concede that You’ve made some very good points. Would still love to see a dev speak up on the topic.
  7. Controller Devoted Player

    In all things with this game just remember to not leave your teammates behind.

    You speak of communication in your post so this is key.

    I think some of the angst here lately is the extreme part of "skipping" where fellow players are left behind, players leave instances frustrated and no one communicates.

    It is this part of DCUO where it makes us all look ugly. When players simply leave an instance because of skipping and they're getting caught in add storms or trash mobs then we're failing our fellow players.

    Must remember - this is a game...entertainment. A way to escape reality...a welcome distraction. When some cannot find fun and entertainment in a game because of instances like TD then that can be frustrating in itself.

    Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but "skipping adds" reached a crescendo with TD, just recently. I know that players (myself included) DO in fact skip some adds but it was with TD (especially last week here in the forums) where a LOT of discussion was made of it.
    • Like x 2
  8. Wallachia Loyal Player

    I typed a huge post explaining that most of the examples mentioned here are NOT skipping adds, save for 2 of them, but I got too lazy to explain that this isn't enough of a point to validade add skipping, specially because, while being a lover of full wiping, I will skip if my group wants me to.
  9. Trykz Dedicated Player

    It’s been a hot topic for sure. Spurred on by a lot of chatter in LFG. Mostly one person lol. I can see both sides of the argument and there really isn’t a clear cut winner. I think you hit the nail on the head at instead of looking at whether or not it was meant or is better, look at how it effects the community. There are people that have never played TD, queing in and getting add swarmed because they have no clue. Is that the kind of experience we want to present to our fellow players, some of whom have never been on the forums, or even played the instance as “intended” let alone been shown how to skip parts.
    • Like x 1
  10. the solowing Steadfast Player

    I guess what they could do is create more patrol mobs to sorta compromise. Less manditory fighting, but more chances for imprompto mob fights, to keep players on their toes in raids. Toss some boss mechanics on some of the patrol mobs and let fate decide who how that fight goes, if they catch a particular combination of patrols.
    • Like x 1
  11. Controller Devoted Player

    This would be OUTSTANDING - even moreso if the Devs allowed actual gear to drop from these mobs - sorta like the gear that dropped in Happiness Home?

    IIRC Happiness Home dropped gear from non-Bosses.
    • Like x 1
  12. Dark Soldier Dedicated Player

    If you want to kill every add every time that you play then find a league… oh so thats what that feels like…

    Lets be real, the only reason that people complain about this is because they spend hundreds on artifacts and want to see the damage stats at the end if they fight every npc.. many people chase the scoreboard competitively every game, while other dont even look at the board before they leave the game.

    Again. Another way we could end threads like these would be removing scoreboards, im on a roll today.
  13. willflynne 10000 Post Club

    I pretty much ignore the scoreboard but still don't skip, but it's probably more due to other games I played than being competitive in any way. When you're running a dungeon with no instant teleport out of the instance at the end, clearing out the mobs as you go is something that needs to be done. Even if there are respawns having the clearest route out possible is VERY nice to have. Plus there was always the chance of some kind of loot dropping, even if most of it was garbage loot. And while we don't really get loot from the mobs along the way anymore, stockpiling Nth Metal or Ally favor never hurts.

    It's that, or I'm just a neat freak who doesn't like to leave a mess behind. :D
  14. Darth Piper Loyal Player

    Actually this feat is about killing specific enemies... or rather killing them in a specific order. The big danger with the pups is the lioness. You have to kill her before you kill the lion, because without his protection she will go hog wild on the pups and kill them. This is a strategy feat more than it is an "avoid killing the enemies" feat.
  15. Psycho Tech Dedicated Player

    As much as themyscira divided has sparked these threads, im shocked I haven’t seen a thread about how lopsided the elite alert is by faction.. villains have it hard with spontaneous reflect w/ no Grace period where you will die if channeling anything (cough absorb heat especially) & heroes get a easy vacation trip where nothing bad can happen to them besides the satyrs which aren’t even a guaranteed boss. Wheres THAT thread. :)
  16. Reinheld Devil's Advocate

    Who looks at the add damage as the indicator? Boss is where it's at!...er, if i'm looking that is.
    • Like x 2
  17. Illumin411 Loyal Player

    Amen brotha!
    • Like x 1
  18. Miss Adora Loyal Player

    the real issue I find with a lot of these raids or alerts is that the devs throw in filler adds just to try and slow down the mission to make it longer, they serve no real purpose. There is no real reason to take them down, so if there is away to avoid them, then I say why not? Adds that you have to take down to get to the next section or boss, I have no issue, they serve a purpose and a reason to take down.

    FVR isn't so bad with adds, not to many adds, and got to each boss quickly. Then you have that one raid, forgot the name where you have to go all the way to MT. Olympus, it was nothing but stop and fight adds forever and it was a very boring raid. You can't blame players want to skip adds. I guess I'm in the middle, there are adds I feel it's best to take out even though we skip over them, they will catch up, then we have to take out any ways. Then there are adds, you can avoid all together and just leave them, you can completely avoid all together.
  19. Qwantum Abyss Loyal Player

    100% communication is key
    That said, i will play devils advocate (im not in either camp and dont care is we skip or kill em all)

    Your statement of not leaving people behind essentially voids any conversation and tives all ability to dictate to the group reguardless of what the group wants overall or in a majority. Saying done leave anyone behind means 3 could vote to skip and 1 wants to fight all and your suggesting the 3 must wait and help the 1. Why does their voice matter more?
    The same argument works the other way, you can see that rite?
    You say leave no one behind, i say if 1 person wants to fight an 3 wanna skip then the 1 has been outvoted and if they wanna participate in boss fights an have group support they better keep up rite?
    Again, just playing devils advocate here be ause i disagree with the concept you presented. I could care less one way or another if we skip or fight.
  20. Controller Devoted Player

    Few things -

    I've never personally had "ANY" Themyscira Divided where we had one player trailing off and trying to kill all adds. This is inclusive of when TD first dropped AND the recent iteration of it. If I saw anything like this I'd guess that either I or a teammate would reach out to the player and see what's going on with them.

    Perhaps in such a case it's a young kid using the toon? That perhaps doesn't understand the instance?

    Why does that one player's actions / voice matter more? I'd like to think "Common Courtesy?" is the reason for it.

    The VAST majority of instances where I saw players fighting adds excessively was simply them being CAUGHT by adds and having to fight through them to get to the rest of the group.

    It is not a thing of where "One player's actions / voice" - mattering more. It is a case of this being a Video Game and making sure that everyone understands how to play.

    In the event that someone was simply being belligerent the majority would then try to complete the instance ourselves and I'd guess that the offender would be placed on ignore.