A concern with power management in the revamp

Discussion in 'Testing Feedback' started by Fatal Star, Feb 20, 2017.

  1. Fatal Star 10000 Post Club

    I'll start off by saying, this isn't a doom and gloom thread, or wishing bad fortune on the revamp or any of that nonsense, so do not take it as such. That said, i am concerned with how power management is being handled in the revamp and I fear will lead to the exclusion of trolls in easier content.

    To me, the way power is handled is probably the most important factor of gameplay. After all, no roles would be able to perform their functions without it, right? Well since we have a role that's been known to dedicate itself to supplying power, I feel it should be able to live up to its full potential in that area without any hindrance as to whether or not it would be really necessary to do so.

    Let's talk about where the game is now for the notorious troll role. As of today, trolls on live are really only needed to feed the tank(s) and healer(s) and maybe a small handful of the dps (Pet AMs seem to need a troll still, some what). Only certain debuffs are needed for certain bosses, and unfortunately not even a necessity most of the time. Trolls aren't need in alerts (unless its elite) and aren't need or wanted in duos, as they're seen as a waste of space by many (this is coming from a pugging point of view, if your league does different, cool. This doesn't apply to you).

    It's no secret trolls need more value. The revamp did help do that with debuffs, they made them viable and worthwhile to use, but still will not be enough to make trolls sought out for in smaller group content, or easy raids for that matter. From the pugging stand point, LFGers will do and use anything to squeeze out that extra burn, if that means deleting a role, they will do so. Now you're probably asking "why would trolls be removed? People will still need power."

    Right now on the revamp, certain builds are more self sufficient then others. Hybrid is more friendly on power then PFtT is, and this may become more widely varied after weapons get their damage pass and longer combos become viable (right now you do more damage using shorter combos, so power consumption is faster cause you'll naturally clip powers with your weapon combos, longer combos mean less power consumption = more efficiency). Pugs will look at this and shout only for the most power efficient dps build as well as power efficient healer and tank- which right now both healer powers are pretty independent and when I ran ice tank, I didn't need a troll at all, I could keep myself up strictly on weapon combos and passive regeneration. If this trend continues, it will spiral out in the general public, the live server always manages to find a different strategy and route then what is used on test.

    My personal opinion, I believe passive regeneration should only be available when a player uses two or more powers back to back consecutively, and should not be a constant thing. Hybrid players should be relying strictly on weapons for regen. Certain powers as hybrid already don't really need a troll, in example, atomic.

    I feel the testing as a whole is trying to push powers and roles to be TOO self sufficient, yes trolls want to get away from being batteries I get that, but unless the devs revamp all pieces of content to make debuffs and CC necessary for almost every instance, trolls will need to be leaned on for some power to keep their usefulness. I think the majority of power a player gets should come from the troll(s), while only a small portion should come from themselves, currently its the other way around and will not help the troll community at all if it stays this way.
    • Like x 6
  2. Fatal Star 10000 Post Club

    TL'DR- power usage needs adjustments
    • Like x 3
  3. BumblingB I got better.

    Since it's a response that is relevant I'm going to cut and paste:
    The problem comes down to content complexity and crowd control. The controller as a role was muscled in because "Batman" and that kind of needed a reason to use them.

    tl;dr Power regen is fine.
    • Like x 1
  4. Fatal Star 10000 Post Club

    I'm curious of your personal opinion on this, do you think it would be easier to adjust power back so you rely a little more on trolls to keep their usefulness peaked? Or do you think it'll be easier to go back and adjust every peice of content to make debuffs and crowd control more worth while? I really want the latter to be the case but I don't think it is.

    The game as it is right now, debuffs and crowd control don't warrant the need for trolls enough. People will push the limits to see if they can exclude them altogether. The minute word breaks loose that "this or that raid can be completed without a troll" the community will will exploit it to its fullest. That's pug life, moar burn, no matter the cost.
  5. BumblingB I got better.

    In honestly? I don't want either.

    If they pushed more towards power on the trolls, we just go back to how it was where only power is all they do and there is no point to change content to account for that.

    If they went back and adjusted content, that just takes time out of their tight schedules to retool and rebalance something that wasn't developed with a complex design to begin with. I think content as it is, is done and they should move on. I also think DLC9 was by far the best content designed for controllers. Under geared, controllers were god, over geared, controllers were optional.

    With the changes to crowd control and break out profiles, controlling will just be discouraging. Very much how one felt with DLC7 where literally EVERYTHING broke out and had immunity. We should be pushing towards MORE use of control effects, not less just because. In the end, that would harm the controllers more, as if they can't stay stunned, there is no need to stun them. Waste of time and power. Just put another DPS there and have the tank keep their aggro.

    Power is fine, crowd control is NOT.
  6. SUPERMANONCRACK Level 30

    Here is the plain and simple truth.....

    No one wants to wait 2 hours in que for a troll so they can run a raid. Believe me. And always using a pug who screws up your attempt at a feat is annoying. I left this game for 2 years which was right before they introduced advanced mechanics. Once I came back (a month ago) and advanced mechanics was in place i fell in love with the game and content again.You need the option to generate your own power or else the game will die a slow and painful death.
    • Like x 3
  7. tioalbert Well-Known Player

    Hello everyone As I see it the prolonged and instantaneous pot should be granted each time the controll uses a power of effect or decrement (controll exclusivity) and in the 3 powers that allowed to potter interaction of powers with others of the 14 types of powers that There is a bonus in 18 seconds duration during which will activate the ip of the 14 types of powers we have in the game. And increase duration of effects to control al = that% of decrements vs enemies and bosses. Try to see it a control that with each effect or decrement gives x% of pot instantaneous or prolonged accumulated liabilities and also its effects would last longer than the current, their decreases would reduce more than can currently. In my opinion only a controll would be requested no matter if it is a mental or flashlight that for my taste both live and in test are more deficient than technical, obesco cuantico (and I am mental contro).
  8. Celestial Powers Committed Player

    In their new vision for DCUO, as long as you can complete content it's working as intended, at least this is the vibe I'm getting since there are mountainloads of feedback ignored or deleted.

    I can see they're focusing DPS at this time, so communicate that, state DPS feedback is priority right now and support will come later, rather than making people feel support is getting left out to dry and being made 100 times worse due to unnecessary changes and nerfs rather than buffs for specific support role powers.

    Answer me this, if content was being beat at V1.1 why was it necessary to change DPS? Because players didn't like some of the options right? So why is it when support feedback requests the same thing we get denied with the "If you can beat content it's fine" approach?
  9. Isif Committed Player

    Troll role is dead thanks to the fact that people forgot how to use their weapons to regen. Then got spoiled with power back mechanic and now expect in the revamp to be spoonfed power from the devs. Giving power is a big part of the role. Do healers run around screaming that they don't want to be your medic? Trolls are batteries and some people understand that. This current state of trolling is pitiful because the masses asked for it. Enjoy. May your chains set lightly upon you.
    • Like x 2
  10. CrappyHeals Devoted Player

    To be able to run the best loadouts you need trolls that's for sure but then on the other hand you can spec in a way that no one needs a troll and I do not like that one bit and that needs to go. The problem is power back, as long as that's a thing trolls will be phased out of some content and that's not good for the game or people that main that role.

    My advice would be to scrap the specing into power gives you more power thing. The passive power is cool for duos and solos but that's where it should end. In group content you should have to run a GROUP not just a bunch of dps and sometimes a healer. Weapon regen is ok and doesn't keep you fully powered but can help ease the trolls job so I'm ok with that. But other forms of power back need to go.

    Like I've said many times the trolls pot should give the majority of power but it splits after 4 and stacks once so that way you would need two trolls in a raid. As long as people can support their own power we will continue to phase out trolls in some content and that's a big no no.

    I'm at work so I have to cut this short but I'll reply back later with more details on this.
    • Like x 1
  11. Karasawa Loyal Player

    In my previous leagues I'd play as any role and any power if it was needed to beat content. My objective was simply to get raids done. Thus, I would happily play as a Controller whenever it was needed. But honestly it was not fun.

    Being a battery during Paradox Wave was needed but not fun for the same reason that using Offering/Fortify isn't fun as a pet power. You're just giving away your ability to use powers and do cool stuff so that others can do cool stuff instead. Most people don't find that fun, which is why Defib, Psychic Empowerment, etc. are not considered "fun" abilities to use. They just don't do anything for you so you never even use them while leveling up as a Controller. And even if the Devs added more options to blue bar heal you still wouldn't use any of them for yourself except PoT, which they have now eliminated ironically enough.

    Also, controlling adds isn't very fun simply because it's not challenging enough. It can be challenging to spot new adds as they spawn and CC them before they can do any harm, but honestly that's the Tank's primary job and also why Tank CC's have priority over Controller CC's. Another irony. And in the few cases you do control adds as a Controller it's just way too easy.. you're usually casting an ability with a 3s cooldown that stuns for 8s. You can basically keep adds CC'd forever at a press of a button with very little challenge, timing, or need for strategic decision-making involved. It gets old pretty quick.

    Now I'm *not* saying that we need to bring PoT back nor do we need to nerf CC, but I am calling into question the need for a Controller role if all they can do are these two functions that aren't even that fun to begin with. Both blue bar healing and crowd control have limitations and just aren't enough at the moment to make this role compelling and necessary.

    To make people want to play as a Controller it needs to have something that really empowers the player in a way that no other role can do. Instead of Defib and Psychic Empowerment being something that only takes away your ability to do cool stuff, let's change them into something you'd really want to use. Make them truly a Controller's main mechanic that buffs the group, improves your personal damage output, and gives power to the group (yourself included)! That's just an example, but you get the idea.

    TL;DR give Controllers more and stop making them everyone else's waterboy.
    • Like x 4
  12. Isif Committed Player

    I never thought that being a battery was difficult, that was the primary task. I always enjoyed the debuff/stun aspect of things, but now most can just "burn the mechanic" of most raids and alerts. Gotta agree with Crappy that power back needs to go. That's all.
    • Like x 1
  13. Karasawa Loyal Player

    Some more ideas:
    • Give Controllers the ability to reduce all your cooldowns.
    • Add new and unique CC's that only Controllers can perform that do not interfere with Tank pulls like "Slow" and "Disarm" from other games.
    • Make Controller Supercharge Generators give SC to the entire group instead of just yourself.
    • Give Controller weapon buffs the ability to proc Might damage on your next attack for the whole group.
    That's all I got for now but keep it coming guys.
    • Like x 3
  14. bmce84 Loyal Player

    I don't understand why this is the only game that needed a dedicated troll power, all other games have the mechanic to handle power on their own but on this game they had to complicate things by adding a 4th unnecessary role.

    Another is you all need to remember this game is designed to allow any combo of powers to have a chance at beating content, even if that is 8 dps on a raid, or 4 healers on an alert. You have to have a way for roles to restore their power just enough to allow them to run group content without a troll, specially with random queuing being a thing and most low level content (or just content that's old like UM and BP) needs to allow players the freedom to run it without having to form a group of 2-2-2-2 after the content has been out for a long time. Some of you don't like this and hate the mere idea of it, but that's how the game works and this isn't even a "post AM" thing, it's always been the case and will still be for this game, changing that is more than just changing a mechanic or two, it's changing the way the game is designed and so far stats update is trying to keep within the bounds of what the game already is. And we still don't know the effects of TC mods which will probably cause some nerfs after the update is live, but from what we can read some help with both power and cooldowns, things that could change how we use a troller in the game.
    • Like x 1
  15. Winter Sabel Dedicated Player

    I see the revamp being past the point of no return TBH. There have already been tons of man hours that have been spent doing the revamp thus far. I don't see the devs changing again. People bitched about the power and it was fixed. Now we have people complaining about the power on the new update.

    Controllers are suppose to be the command & control / crowd control in the instances not just batteries.
    The best thing the devs could do at this point is to make sure that controllers stay relevant by keeping dominance in line with live as it pertains to stuns. Then remove the strength of the stuns from the powers that kept overriding the stuns of controllers ( celestial, nature & Atomic DPS are the main culprits).

    There should be an order in which CC works.

    1. Controller
    2. Tank (excluding pulls then tank gets priority)
    3. healer
    4. DPS

    AM's & the stuns introduced with them totally screwed up this order and have contributed to the demise of the controller & tank role over the last two years.

    What is on test is perfectly fine with me & I have been running a couple controllers since 2011. What sucks is when people think they can pew pew pew pew without any regards to power consumption and then try to blame someone else for their shortcomings. The same goes for people trying to blame healers because they have no clue what block & dodge are.

    I think this power issue is really a non issue mainly because it will make players more responsible for power consumption & taking damage. Making players more responsible for there power means that they have to learn how help manage the healers power as well by not taking as much damage. If the healer is running out of power because BOB the DiPS refuses to block then maybe now BOB will be the one people look at instead of the controller or healer.
    • Like x 1
  16. Isif Committed Player

    Good ideas Karasawa. Unfortunately, troll is dead in the dev mind and evidently, in the community mind. I understand that dedicated power healers aren't the norm and that's what made it an interesting part of teamwork. But hey, maybe 4 heal raids might be cool. The community would never go for it because of "sloww buuurn."
  17. Ringz Dedicated Player

    I too am concern. Ofc debuffs and crowd controll needed worked on too, but other then that there was nothing wrong with trollers as I see it. The lack of need for controllers to spec other then power battery in recent content is on the devs.
  18. Winter Sabel Dedicated Player

    The difficult part has always been with players that don't have a clue about how their action affects the entire group.
  19. E Clip Dedicated Player

    Trollers providing a group buff will be a neat solution like Karasawa suggested.

    However, that's an idea which Im not saying its bad, its great, but it only makes things more dps centric. Designing bosses with the controllers role in mind is something many have asked in the past and its something that this game sorely lacks. For example, I've fought bosses in other mmo's that you simply cannot complete without the support role clensing buffs from the boss or keeping him debuffed at all times, say on a 30 seconds loop. Failing to debuff or clense results in the boss going in frenzy with 500% more dmg and 500% attack speed, or he will heal back the amount of damage he is taking in, or the damage you deal will be decreased by a lot etc etc. Bosses can have a mechanic that will wipe the group unless a stun is applied to them in the next 3-5 seconds and only a troller's stun will be effective. I can make a dozen more examples like this but you get the idea. At the end, it doesn't really matter what a troller can do if the content isnt designed to utilize the role. Better mechanics is the only way to make the troller's desirable in group and a role that people will be interested in playing, otherwise they'll simply be called buff b!tches instead of batteries.
    • Like x 3
  20. Yuin Level 30


    Back in the PW days, I LOVED playing Controller because of how much impact you could make on the success of the raid. There was very little room for mistakes since people could melt almost immediately from loose trash mobs, environmental hazards, and lethal boss attacks. But it wasn't so ridiculous that a temporary mob CC or shield wouldn't help.

    As a Controller, you had the power to significantly expand that margin of error, save (and res) people, prevent wipes. Healers were locked into the tank while Controllers had greater freedom and mobility to oversee the entire group. Support role had never been so fun because survivability and group coordination mattered. I imagine something similar when the top raids were FoS2 or Prime.

    Anyway, just throwing in another idea. I don't know what it's like now, but these auxiliary functions probably don't matter much in the current content. Maybe in SM?
    • Like x 1