5-1-1-1 = bad dps.

I'll point you to my last post as it coveres the issues and the problems with out burning the mechanics of content

There is only so far you can split damage before you hit the level of diminishing returns. At some point adding a DPS will not speed you up. In fact it can slow you down. 5-1-1-1 groups are NOT high risk reward. They are just high risk period. If you lose that second support role you often wipe and lose time that way. At some point having the extra healer, troll or tank is more efficient than the fourth or fifth DPS. Is simple math.

I have no issue with dps stacking and honestly the more if they are diff kinds the faster and better the dam will be
If you have a quantum for graviton a fire for burning it makes munitions better and muni helps sorcery and electric and nature together dots= death over time.
Now lets be honest ....
Many dps are horrificable = (is horrific and terrible mixed.)
Cant clip for ****! Dont know how and more importantly when to jump cancel
Dont know how to put together a rotation Or preload . Never learned what or how a power interaction works.
I see this a lot with quantum players running thru 1234 am and thinking they amazing.

Now also being honest we were all that suxor once
We were all derpy off brand nooblets till someone took the time to show us the way
We all need a yoda
But.... Players now will boot rather than teach
Or belittle players rather than help them. Its like they expect people to come with built in god mode from scratch..
If no one helps them they will never get better,
Take them under your wing. Each one teach one

I've never understood why the Devs code things in such a way to allow damagers to zerg a boss to the point where the mechanics are avoided. Its simple enough to ensure that no matter how much damage each phase of a bosses repertoire is activated.

The thing to remember is that at any point in a raid there are only so many enemies with so much health spread across them. Often the highest damager in the instance (leading up to the bosses) is not the strongest damager but the fastest, the one who can get their damage out fast enough to claim the majority of the enemies health bars.

As an extreme example, five damagers, run up against three chumps (spread out), all five can one shot the chumps but after fighting them three damagers will have the max damage from one each added to the scoreboard while two will have none at all, the enemies died before their just as effective attack could land. Through no fault of their own two of the damagers were nothing but a strain on the troll.

So 5-1-1-1 works best when there is a biiiiiig health pool to empty out, it allows all the damagers to contribute as best they can to the damage soak in front of them. From that perspective with the T6+ preference for big health it is not going to change from 5-1-1-1 unless the mechanics force it to. The worst and saddest bit is if the dev team did change things to smaller health but trickier opponents then most would probably stick with 5-1-1-1 no matter what, even when its not the most effective way to run.

I've seen some pretty good arguments here for the 5111. I'm not liking some of the premises, though.

To the people saying that support roles are redundant if they accomplish the job, my counter is this:

1. those 111 are now a weak point that can cause a wipe, actually adding more time to the instance
2. those "support" roles are now having to stress themselves doing their job
3. I think the heart of this argument is centered around power-return. If the whole group has power except for the tank and healer, or power isn't getting through to them, that's a problem. There are a lot of trolls out there who think they can solo, but if you look at the tank's bar, and non-Nature healer's bar, you'll find that really they can't.

To the more damage is always better, even if not as competent, my counter is this:

1. The incompetent ones are literally doing nothing to help, other than using up resources and "kill stealing." They are one more person to power, heal, and protect.
2. Frequently, they are one more person to pick up, too. They reduce the damage the competent dps could be doing, if those damagers pick up. In fights like Carol Ferris, that can also make them a liability.
3. Many mechanics are now being tied to health bars. I keep seeing 5111 groups consistently wiping at the last boss of Lab, making it take longer than if they had just slowed their roll a little, and spent the extra 15 seconds each round to kill the adds. There's even a shiny box in it for you if you wait the full 60 seconds it would take to kill all the adds. You can even keep your 5111 group for that one.

Yes but that is only the case in survival mode. All other content in this game, running 5-1-1-1 is high risk high reward. As far as I have seen from this DLC and previous, there is no split damage that gets to a level of diminishing returns.

As many have seen in my video of Elite HH, I was literally walking around the room casting a single heal in boredom so whoever is in charge of raid mechanics, that person needs to seriously go look at other MMOs, or get replaced ASAP.

I really hate the 5-1-1-1 set up because when things go south or stuff needs to be done dps still point at support roles in HOH I was solo troller and I had a dps tell me to "pick up the gloves now!" I replied " Go $#%@ yourself buddy there's 5 of you in here and I don't see stuff dropping any faster so you pick up the gloves I have enough to do solo trolling".

wheres that video at?

well as long as the tank, tanks cerberus in the corner its easy as hell to stun handlers ANYONE can stun them regardless their role.

It might be interesting to take the same group of players and do multi runs with different set ups to chart the run time differences. I know it would not be an exact science but it might be fun to see what the results would be. I agree with you about overall raid mechanics being lacking in the area of role balancing.

I barely DPS anymore because there's so many. I just troll and heal for PVE but I always DPS in PVP. I have to enjoy the game too ya know lol.

say whaaat

It makes it easier to get groups because I pug a lot.

This. Unfortunately, it wont connect with some people who are deadset on the belief that 5-111 is ONLY because of bad dps.

Also, i'd even go so far as to say that thats an anecdotal statement as it can go both ways. The scorecard comes into play here. When people look at the scorecard and see a dps putting up low numbers, there is a slim chance he's staying in the group, if top dps is leading with 4 mil, 2nd at 2.5mil, and 3rd at 467k, there is no way that that last guy is staying. Obviously there are exceptions and sometimes they do keep bad dps in groups to get carried, but more often than not its because the bad dps is a friend of one of the group members so he wont get kicked.

same here I pug everything lol

I queue new T7 raids and LFG if the queue pops before I get picked up I go with the queue.

Thats just it though, whenever the devs give these adds oodles upon oodles of health, people are going to want to get things done faster. That is the problem, in depth mechanics can fix this, but sadly they are severely lacking. The current situation puts us in a state where there arent too many reasons NOT to pick up extra burn. I personally feel as though content is just not in depth enough.

There are many many many other ways to make content challenging rather than just a burn fest. I realize combat is a key feature in this game so there will be more emphasis on it.

I'll use AnB as an example. Before it was nerfed to the ground, i think it was going in the right direction. You had a variety of adds, red lanter stalkers i think theyre called, that hit kinda sorta hard, but had average health, but if a group of them ganged up on you it was troubling. These often came out in waves, and then you would have maybe two RL hunters at a time; these guys were slow, tanky amounts of health, and hit hard. Then we had atrocitus and bleez. Atros had average health but dropped aggro frequently, hit hard, had an aoe dot effect, and at low health, had a oneshot you had to avoid, as well as a charge with a tell. Bleeze had Slightly more health, was a little faster, but she didnt hit nearly as hard and she had to be burned 1st. With two tanks this part was a cake walk, though you constantly had to be on the lookout for his aggro drop.

Then there was the part where two groups had to go seperately to handle different tasks; carrying mist containers and fighting off yllw lanterns, then each group had individual bosses. then we had the maze navigation, and the final boss in which you had to break the tubes or face those lasers, stun the manhunters and fight sinestro n henshaw.

This raid imo is one of the best examples of mechanics in the game, and sometime after this dlc dropped it fell apart. Best part about it was that it clearly encouraged a balanced setup, it was able to be done in a time efficient manner even with 2 dps because there was no need to blanket it with massive amounts of health. And communication was big in this raid

Only other thing id add as far as a competent group that does 5-1-1-1 is that generaly even while pugging, players pick up different powersets, ie troll tank healer powers, and some groups are able to cover the liabilities by being able to switch to their power's other role if needed

there has always been a shortage of support roles. i remember making a wisecrack a few years back on how in order to make the support roles look more attractive to players the devs would have to beef up their stats to such a point that it would be impossible not to be an amazing healer/controller/tank. This is whats brought us to the current ways we group for content.

I'm neither for nor against. I'm for whatever works best for each team. A good team player is going to be prepared to dps and/or run their support role as needed. this is why we got armories.

While Ive been running the new content like crazy the past three days I ran NGN last night with my league. Of our group 6 were going through the op for the first time. We switched roles around a little but it was basically a 2-2-2-2 run with one of the healers and tanks switching to dps for a bit as needed. It was bumpy at times but we got through it.

I think as players continue running the new content its going to become clearer what the best group set ups are.

I'm all for diversity and versatility in game play but I'm also in a very controller heavy league with memebers who prefer running their support role over dps'ing. This is going to make league runs more difficult to coordinate. This is also going to make things difficult for support roles to gear up and learn content. In the past when you needed two trolls groups were okay with inviting fledgling players to runs. Now with a sudden overabundance of top tier trolls the lower tiered ones are going to get left behind. This is exactly whats happened to tanks and healers.

Bottom line is I think its important to know how to play both of your roles.

when as a Quantum DPS, I'm asked to put a power SC on my bar, it says to me that 2 controllers are not obsolete.