Reduced sourcemarks in fos3, why?

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by STsource, Aug 3, 2022.

  1. VIRALITY Dedicated Player

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    • Like x 3
  2. DeitySupreme Steadfast Player



    Not sure why this is so complicated to understand.

    Spotlight means double source marks. Spotlight was completely ignored because 2 raids gave more marks than content with double marks. A raid without double marks giving more marks than a raid with double marks isn’t right. Sooo they reduced how many marks those 2 outliers gave.

    Cause and effect. If you don’t understand that very simple logic than that’s more on you for not understanding
    • Like x 3
  3. VIRALITY Dedicated Player

    What do you mean these 2 raids were giving double marks? Aren't they all 10 source marks?
  4. VIRALITY Dedicated Player

    This change does absolutely NOTHING for new players except hurt their progress. Getting 40% less marks in a raid does not help them in the slightest.

    Not to mention that this change has NOTHING to do with new players or the omnibus (I'll get to that in a minute), because we're talking about 2 very different subsets of players:

    Subset A are the end-game players that are forming walk-in groups that aren't even queuing for the omnibus. They're walking in and farming source marks so they can go and buy stuff in the game. No interest in helping new players. Now they're going to run something else because FOS 3 has been nerfed. Likely Necro is up next, if they haven't already ninja'd it.

    Subset B are the new players/omnibus players that want or need to run old content to advance them to endgame. They open up the on duty menu, queue omnibus, and run whatever raid they get into. If you think that nerfing the source marks from FOS 3 (which could take 10-15 mins for new players running it, and only getting 6 source marks) is helping that, then I don't think we can have a logical argument about it at all.

    This change isn't going to help pool players out of FOS 3 into other raids. Subset A is still going to try and optimize their efficiency and time by running whatever raid is going to give them the most source marks per minute, with the path of least resistance. That, or they'll start queuing raids that give source marks, but also have a chance for a rare item (think GOM). Now they'll just custom queue for whatever raid that is, or maybe they won't. They're not going to magically start running Khandaq now, nor are they going to take a step back and think "hmm how can I now help new players now that FOS 3 is nerfed?". I don't have a good solution right now as to how we help out new players or fuel the stat-clamped omnibus, but going around nerfing source marks from raids isn't it. This decision does the exact opposite.


    With regards to the actual "issue" - Mepps said this change was about too many source marks per minute in those raids (he made no mention of new players or omnibus), which FOS 3 certainly had the highest source marks per minute (it was an 'outlier'). So instead of going back to the drawing board, talking about how they can even it out amongst all the raids and possibly come up with a solution, they made a totally illogical, rash decision to just reduce FOS 3 (by 40%) and DD (by 25%) out of nowhere in a random game update a year later. It's lazy, bad decision making, and of course players are going to be pissed off.

    If they had communicated beforehand that they have found some outliers like FOS 3 and DD, that they didn't like that being in the game design and was an oversight when they introduced stat clamping, and that they would be looking at even-ing out the source marks distribution across all raids - this thread wouldn't exist, and the community reception would've been much higher.


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    [EDIT: ^I'm not saying that having mechanics in a raid is a bad thing or something that is being 'forced' upon us. Part of the fun of the game is having drive and wanting to learning the mechanics of a raid. But forcing EG players who are in old content in which we have already learned the mechanics and exhausted it to the very end many years ago, is - but that's a whole stat clamping argument, and this thread isn't about that.]
    • Like x 1
  5. Proxystar #Perception

    Last week FGSR (wonderverse raid) was given a spotlight, the developers do this because they want people to run it, it's a bonus week and things like these bonus weeks are supposed to be fun, highlight aspects of the game, help new players with completing them by attracting players from all levels of the game and provide bonuses.

    However, despite the fact there was a bonus spotlight going on and FGSR was rewarding 20 source marks, people were still running FOS3 and DD (but more particularly FOS3)

    That is because FGSR takes 15 minutes or whatever to complete.

    So even though it was giving 20 marks, in the same time it took to complete one FGSR, people could complete 3 FOS raids and get 30.

    This poses a problem to development because it diminishes the value of their bonus spotlight weeks and prevents them from having the development impact they might want for the wider player base.

    The next time there is a bonus raid like this it would be 20 source marks for FGSR and 18 source marks for the 3 runs of FOS, so they're going to consider it more in line.

    The issue however is that there are obviously some super long outliers as well that could use adjusting upwards, its just how quickly the devs get to them, if at all :)
    • Like x 2
  6. Cyclonic Dedicated Player

    Aren't you all sick of fos3 anyway? You'll be grinding source marks until you're 80 anyway. At least now you don't have to listen to that obnoxiously long speech to be optimally efficient.
    • Like x 1
  7. Reinheld Devil's Advocate

    Meh....show me the 2.5 min run...I'm sure its in the same fantasy as all the EEG bosses being 'one shot' we heard about. Necro takes about 7 min, not 10 and COU a bit longer. FVR and FFR will also fall under the quick runs. Not 100% in agreement with Kreachure, but he's right in the fact that they should have boosted 'LONG' runs at the same time then dinked these or any future runs if it were really about some sort of proper balance. "Extreme outliers" should apply both ways. And FOS3 is only a min or 2 shorter than COU if you have a decent group....so a min or 2 IS pretty 'extreme'? Guess I better warn my lady she is in for an 'extreme' good time this weekend.;)

    And people didn't spam FGS because DD or FOS3 were short....they didn't spam it because FGS is a long raid with a potential for failure. It would have been cool if they would have held off on the change for a week, because I'd wager that COUR would have been spammed more than FOS3 or DD even if full marks...cause yeah...that one doubled pays very nicely for the time....FGS...not so much.
  8. Reinheld Devil's Advocate

    So....you believe we would have gotten the deluge of new pets and 'purchase' style items....500 mark allies.... anything else that was added when HOL cam out if we DIDN'T get unlocked, 'unlimited' source runs?

    Wow....I know the devs can be cruel (100 count WV bounties comes to mind), but not that cruel. Most other people didn't know how to scrape together a few 100 marks for catalysts to level up artis....you think they could get 700?

    Or if you mean I myself would have gotten them....no. I have bought no pets or high ticket allies. WTF do I need more than 1 pet I'll get from a drop or the broker (especially since purchase ones don't count for feats) for and I dislike the allies system, so Oracle, HOL bot and Cyborg are fine by me....70 marks I believe for the other 2...oracle was free. These aren't pokemon...I don't need to 'collect them all'...I'll leave that up to the suckers to do.
    • Like x 2
  9. Proxystar #Perception

    You can finish DD in 2.5minutes without a speed hacker, with a good group using all the artifacts, you don't need a speed hacker.

    Also no, I can't believe you're actually being this dense, the very reason people aren't running a highlighted bonus week is because FOS3 is too easy and rewards too many marks for the effort is exactly the problem the devs are rectifying here lol.

    Edit - also COU shows a better balance, let's say it takes what 6-8 minutes to finish a COU, so under spotlight that's 6-8 minutes for 20 source marks as a bonus.

    in 10 minutes you'd have got 12 in FOS - that means it's working because you'll now still run COU.

    Outside of the bonus it'd be 10 minutes for 12 marks in FOS and 6-8 minutes for 10 marks in COU.

    If it were still 10 minutes for 20 marks in FOS and 6-8 minutes for 10 marks in COU you'd never even look at COU

    Do you not see how that's better balanced? :confused:
    • Like x 1
  10. Proxystar #Perception

    I was joking about the former and suggesting that the devs would've released the pets anyway at a cost of 700 marks even though your yield was less, yes ;)
    • Like x 3
  11. the solowing Steadfast Player

    I mean we used to have 20,000+ MoT's at one time. LOL, used to skip entire tiers at one point.
  12. Reinheld Devil's Advocate

    And again...all this proves is that these would have to be MADE groups of 8 people running something that would have no impact to anyone else. Also there is no guarantee they'd run any other runs if they weren't inclined to run these because of the profit involved. Add in any queue time or having to pick up a random, and all these times turn to crap....not saying the actual run might not go fast, but sorry....you need to add 'getting in' time. Even if DD is a 2.5 min run on the scoreboard, you can't tell me that a group missing a few players (Therefore runs that would impact other players....you know...the 'eco system'), gets in the SECOND it gets out of the previous run. Even a full group doesn't do that well.

    *This is actually the main reason I don't 'spam'. Because on the FEW occasions I thought 'hmmm, maybe I'll join that group and knock out XYZ'...like for STU raid counts or farm a 1st boss drop, or a multiple pass feat or whatever, after 1 or 2 runs they ALWAYS get hung up between queues. Sorry....not for me. You know you need to add that time in if you are going for a total, right? You AREN'T going to get 2 FOS3s done in 10 min if the run takes 5, but the delay between takes 3(unless you are walking in, and even then, missing members mean slower runs). And don't get me started on the BS about how you can get 20, 50 or 100 runs done ALL at 5 min apiece...no delay between. I see the shouts in LFG man, every 6 or 7 min, the same group lead is shouting for more bodies to backfill the group....sometimes every 30-60 seconds for a while...meaning he's NOT getting back in for that time.

    And the 'balance' argument only works if you KNOW that someone running FOS3 spams would have ran FGS during that 2x week....and sorry...you don't know that. Maybe if there was not a FOS3 spam group, they'd have spammed Barbatos counts or ran bounties or polished their fingernails or daydreamed. And even if they did hit FGS, if they still have full groups (as your runtimes would suggest, how does that get you or me or any other random into FGS or anything else? You can't have it both ways...these are either full, OP, competent groups who involve no one else, or they are casual spammers picking up 2 or 3 people (or 7), each run. All you are talking about is shifting the target of full spam groups....yeah, that will fix the eco system. Sure.

    Real balance would require adding marks to the other 'long' runs, or a loot lockout to encourage running 'different' stuff. All this is is behavior modification. The 'carrot' wasn't working (marks in ALL old content...2x in this case) so they went to the 'stick'. And as I said before...go ahead and take the marks out....doesn't matter to me. If I'm in FOS3 or DD OR FGS (or any other EEG), I'm there for the omni box ONLY, which I still get...6, 10 or 20 marks....who cares? Personally if I were going to spam something for marks (and I didn't) last week, I'd have spammed the solo. 4 marks, no cutscenes, in 3 to 3.5 min and I CAN re-queue immediately and have 0 chance of a hard time due to knuckleheads....yeah, that trumps all the above.

    And I know you have been leaning heavily on this 'well I changed my mind' defense, but it's funny how hard you are defending this when scant few months (not years) ago the WAY more disruptive partial runs in HH were 'fixed' and you were throwing a fit...actually citing these particular 2 runs as the next ones to 'fix'....sarcastically. Funny the whole 'balance' and 'eco-system' factor really seemed to kick in....oh, around the time Mepps said it? Yeah, that's about it.
    • Like x 3
  13. Reinheld Devil's Advocate

    Ummmm....and the gear cost a few 1000 MoTs a pop and that was the most expensive MoT things we had. That's not creep...that's currency conversion. Now, granted, those juicy 'bonus' monthly boxes in gates and prime did really help out, but they didn't add 50,000 MoT priced pets back then....because we still had loot locks. The removal of the locks and addition of marks in EEG is why we have 700 mark pets and 500 mark allies now. Period. They were added to incentivize us running more old stale content. What it caused is the 'need' to spam whatever the best rate of return is for your time....and now they don't like that people are doing just that so they are changing the rates to modify what we run. Carrot and stick....unfortunately they made a bunch of carrot addicts and now they don't like it.
  14. Reinheld Devil's Advocate

    I'd disagree, but man...you really think they are some sadists in there I guess.
  15. Raven Nocturnal Loyal Player

    Perhaps if the Omnibus version was left alone and the Custom Queue version was reduced? Therefore hampers the spam but still allowing newer players to benefit from full rewards?
  16. ArtemisWonderWoman7 Well-Known Player

    Nvr really spammed this raid for marks completely aware that it's fast and dd raid is to but I just get bored running the same raid over and over and when I did q it on omnibus I just did it. Never had any run take 2 1/2 minutes. 8 was the average and it could go longer if it was a bad group. If anything now I have no incentive to help new player in a random q cause its not a productive run now. Ran fgsr like 20 times last week and that was a average of 20 minutes 15 fastest run so are they gonna add more marks? How about paradox or nexus or A & B those can take 45 minutes if your pugging them and I normally say no when they q
  17. DeitySupreme Steadfast Player

    The omnibus in part of the custom que. Players que up and the Omni fills up the rest of the spots. This is why some raids pop more often than others.
  18. Ryazan Dedicated Player

    The game knows when we use Custom or Omni, it's how it detects the weekly mission for Steve Trevor. Tying the instances rewards to how you queued though, I don't know if it's a thing the devs can do, but that would go with RavNoc's suggestion.
    • Like x 1
  19. Raven Nocturnal Loyal Player

    Right, but the game knows the difference otherwise you'd get credit for weekly omni mission even by using custom queue, in which you don't (I think, at least it used to be. I never run it). Taking the time attempting to "force pop" these raids in omni sounds like such a hassle and a half in which negates the spam ability.
  20. Kreachure Committed Player


    This is actually not a bad compromise if they can pull it off. Most people walk-in spam anyway which allows them to get back in instantly. Reduce the walk-in version? With the average time people take to Q or re-Q, plus cutscenes we're looking at close to 10 mins. Give the 10 marks back to the Q side.
    • Like x 1