It's too easy to get to EG.

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by Aetrius, Jun 19, 2022.

  1. TheLorax 15000 Post Club

    Well they succeeded with two out of those three things.

    That's an idea.
    • Like x 1
  2. Aetrius Well-Known Player

    I don't agree. CR skips will hit endgame with one artifact (not necessarily a good one) at 80-100, body augs (not necessarily the right ones) about 2/3 of the way to the top, and around 90 SP. If I remember correctly from the last free CR skip we got. I was trying to highlight that you could play through the game and end up in even worse shape. Yes I did it very rapidly, much more so than a new player is likely to be able to, but it doesn't change the fact that there's very little in place to point these players in the right direction, and nothing to stop them from jumping, fully unprepared, into EG content.


    Here, I agree with you. In my initial post I said easy, and everyone just took that to mean fast, which is mostly my fault because I highlighted how quickly I had done it. What I was trying to get at was that there's nothing to make a new player pump the brakes and actually learn how to play before they get into content that's intended for experienced players. There's nothing that makes a new player (or a bad one for that matter) from showing up with max CR, but low artifacts, no artifacts, or just plain wrong ones. Max CR, and rainbow augs, or Max CR and 40 SP.

    Lots of people have said there needs to be a much better tutorial system in the game. I agree. I'd also say there need to be some hard stops at the tiers that force people to be at a certain level of SP before they move to the next one (it doesn't even have to be a big number, just enough to make them realize that SP are important and help your character). Maybe make it a feat in the general tab so that experienced players that have already hit the benchmark can bypass with a replay badge and still powerlevel their own toons. Put some warnings on the aug system (big red letters that pop show across your augment screen that state - this is not optimal for your role, and advise what you should be running) and require them to be at a certain level before you can move to the next tier of the game.

    And as for artifacts, well if the Devs don't want to make their own guide, just stick a link in game pointing to some of the guides here on the forum. There are some really helpful things on here, but there's nothing that points anyone from the game to them. But, I do think there should be some minimum level of functional arts to enter EG content. Yes, I know it's possible to complete content without arts, but let's be honest, everything is now designed with them in mind - just look at the ridiculous hps on the mobs if you want proof.
    • Like x 2
  3. TheLorax 15000 Post Club

    Just today had an atomic tank in RTE3, 2 artifacts not even at 80. Right gear, wrong augments. Couldn't hold aggro because he just blocked 99% of the time. Died multiple times because he couldn't keep his aura up. Didn't even know what button to press to break out. You would think a CR 359 tank would know how to break out.
    • Like x 1
  4. Aetrius Well-Known Player

    You'd think that, but they even took that tutorial out. I don't know how long its been since you leveled a character from 1, but the tutorial on the ship doesn't even make you perform the basic counters anymore.
  5. TheLorax 15000 Post Club

    I know. I was against that.
  6. Reinheld Devil's Advocate

    I do agree that it's working as intended...they want us at endgame. Endgame players use replays, EEG do not(save resetting an event run). Endgame players need artifacts and maxed allies....EEG players do not (or it's optional at the very least).

    I also think that there is a difference between power leveling (buying tier gear and using an oversight in the GW bosses) vs just real leveling via playing. If you are really just playing the game naturally, you won't level in 3 days. A person who is going to 'power level' is 100% aware that they will arrive at EG unprepared to actually be all that viable. Even if they plugged that GW loophole, someone who wants to power level can 'get' some cash and TC gear their way up, just running a few Funhouse or Manhiems to get the rings/weapon/necklace to round out a set, or buy a few tier pieces as needed. Not saying that power leveling is good or bad...we used to do it walking someone into Gates and prime as soon as they hit level 30 and could go in....it's been a thing in the game since inception. The issue is that people seem to think there is a 'fix' for this. The only fix would be some sort of checks when you queue in. A SP check, or aug/arti minimum, or requirement that if you run a role you'd have to have passed some sort of tutorial where that role is explained. And as your example above illustrates, an 'end game' player on a 3 day toon is very different from a noob player on the same toon. Those checks could not know the difference between the 2.

    None of those things will ever happen as it would exclude people, and DI has proven time and again that they don't care to do that. The model they've laid out is one where 'everyone' can run anything they want at any time....they forget that 'running' and 'finishing' are 2 different things and that up to 7 other people are being impacted by some guy who just had to get there in 3 days (or 3 hours if you are a go-getter).

    My one suggestion on some other thread long ago if they wanted to try and put some sort of progression in was that you can't progress to a new Tier of content till you beat the hardest thing in the previous tier. I'd let someone else figure out what those runs are, but say for example, FOS2 or Khandaq in T1...gotta beat that to get into T2. Wave or maybe Nexus to open up Tier 3. UM or Bombshell or something for T4 access....whatever. Not saying any of these runs are particularly 'hard' for most of us, just saying for someone that has NO clue, there is a challenge. They might learn something about mechanics or even how to assemble the group to get in...even if they were just wanting a carry (still possible BTW...). They still wouldn't be ready for endgame, but they'd learn more than just where 2 bosses are in GW and how fast the respawn rate for them is though...which is something. Yes, the SP/artis/augs will still be lacking, but the player might actually learn something about the game along the way...I think that counts a lot more than +30 or 50 SP would.
    • Like x 1
  7. Tiffany6223 Loyal Player

    I like this idea. It makes sense and seems reasonable to me.
  8. DeitySupreme Steadfast Player

    That’s where I 100% agree and maybe I didn’t make my stance clear enough. When I say I’m ok with the speed of progression I mean that I am ok with how fast players who put the work in grind to EG. I’ve also been very vocal that I think the game should do a better job of teaching the players. It’s one of the reasons I’ve been pro clamp. Making players have to learn mechanics as they progress leads to a healthier overall player base
  9. Tiffany6223 Loyal Player

    Perhaps the creation of some side missions that will teach new players their roles, how to (heal, tank, control, DPS) would be as much of a benefit as them learning that there are mechanics in instances which must be observed in order to succeed. If the new player is obeying all the mechanics of the instance but isn’t performing their role or worse is just super bad at their role, it does nothing to improve the chances of beating the mission.

    Learn your role + learn the mechanics = successful EG.
  10. willflynne 10000 Post Club


    And in the process you'd hamstring (if not outright screw over) players who prefer to go it alone.

    It's not an ideal method (very much a slower process and results in lower SP totals, for starters) but going it alone most of the time/sticking to solo content IS a valid method of playing the game and progressing through it. If it wasn't I wouldn't be starting to get into Atlantis on my characters.
    • Like x 1
  11. BumblingB I got better.

    Short answer: Ultimately, nothing.

    Long answer: You can't really do a lot. In other games I play with group elements to MMO elements, there are always the inexperienced players. The devs want players to be around the same level to play together. This is why we have event episode releases. More players = More Money. (And mo problems, amirite?)
    I have and always will be an advocate of giving more to the paid boosts to high end CR. The SP given is no where near enough and they only ever give you enough XP to level one artifact to 80. Could they give more? Yes, absolutely. Will they? I don't know, if they feel like it will yield more revenue, then yes.
  12. Proxystar #Perception

    Not a side mission, there needs to be an additional story driven mission added to the leveling process so it isn't avoided either purposefully or accidentally by a new player, it should happen after the final mentor specific level 30 mission.
    • Like x 2
  13. KidKretz Committed Player

    post 30 tutorial, im glad this idea is catching ;)
  14. Reinheld Devil's Advocate

    Sorry, but if there were more of those solo only players than there were of the ones who just want to stumble into endgame GROUP content with no idea what to do or ability to do it, we wouldn't be having this conversation for the 1000th time. And if you want, make it only apply to alerts and raids...that's fine by me. That way the solo/duo players can chug along, but they can't queue into a DWF run if they haven't beat Khandaq or Wave yet. BTW. Tie the whole thing to a 0 star feat you can unlock on an alt for free so you only need to do the progression 1 time if you want.

    Not saying solo isn't a valid way to play the game...I do a lot of solo myself, but if people stuck to solo play only we'd never run into them, to be having this conversation...whether they are good OR bad players.
  15. Tolly Committed Player

    The CR should be at a level consistent with the SPs unlocked by the CR jump!

    Because it's like asking a Lada to race against a Ferrari....
  16. Tiffany6223 Loyal Player

    Tiffany6223 said:
    “Perhaps the creation of some side missions that will teach new players their roles, how to (heal, tank, control, DPS) would be as much of a benefit as them learning that there are mechanics in instances which must be observed in order to succeed. If the new player is obeying all the mechanics of the instance but isn’t performing their role or worse is just super bad at their role, it does nothing to improve the chances of beating the mission.

    Learn your role + learn the mechanics = successful EG.”

    Eh, forget what I said. One of these days I'll learn my lesson.
  17. Proxystar #Perception

    Don't stress it, you weren't wrong really, just not as a side mission :) a main mission
  18. TheLorax 15000 Post Club

    There should be 3. One starting at level 10 (?) when a character gains their support role, teaches quick basics about the role, equipment, switching roles. It could be setup like a mock duo, very simple, just you and an iconic NPC who you have to keep alive or powered up depending on the role. The next mission can happen around level 20, the setup can be a mock alert, a little more advanced lesson with three NPCs filling in for the other roles. The last one can be at level 30, also a mock alert because I think a mock raid would be overkill.

    These don't have to be complicated or especially challenging but they should be engaging enough for a new player to get a feel for group content and their role in it.
    • Like x 1
  19. Proxystar #Perception

    Nah, see the reason I disagree with this is because it'll risk fragmenting the fluidity of the leveling process and possibly causing confusion at a earlier than necessary stage.

    A player is at level 10 after about 2 story missions, adding extra layers at that point risks not even being properly registered by the player, they lack the knowledge to understand its importance and are still wanting to just play and in fact is premature also given the story missions are in any case best performed in DPS role.

    Any tutorial is best served being placed at level 30 immediately at the point story ends and the player starts to focus on end game.

    It could that at that point the justice league provides you with a set of support gear, tells you to equip it, then queues you for an alert with NPCs (like those in flashpoint) where you're forced to play support.

    This effectively pushes the client into a support scenario without option, im fact make it so you can queue nothing else until it is completed.

    It can even loosely explain what to put in loadouts and what stats to put in primarily, it can't be too advanced though or it risks being too convoluted and ignored or worse player just quits.

    It's important but must have limits.
  20. TheLorax 15000 Post Club

    But you can't teach everything about a role in one mission which is why I feel it should be split up.

    Edit: when I get home I'll type up something more clear. I don't think I'm explaining my thoughts well.
    • Like x 1