Devs:Stat clamp to old content is quite obtuse

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by AJPro, Feb 8, 2022.

  1. DeitySupreme Steadfast Player

    There’s also no stats piercing in endgame either. Something people keep forgetting. As time goes on content still becomes easier because of how piercing works. In fact it’s easier now than when said content were at end game. Want proof? Look at FGSe. One day people couldn’t even get past grail. Then people were find it easy enough to farm for the pet that was added. The day it was turned to EEG it was made easier. Even the open world bounties were made easier.
  2. shoegazer Well-Known Player

    I said it in a post before...elite content needs to have an even bigger difference
    • Like x 1
  3. DeitySupreme Steadfast Player

    People are literally farming elite for pets and things to sell. If you can’t beat it than maybe you should see what you’re doing wrong
  4. Tiffany6223 Loyal Player

    This is why I have resisted commenting at all in this thread until I read Ryuko's post. It is pointless to discuss as there is no compromise from the pro stat clamp side. It's their way or no way.

    "No one earned the right to trivialize content" AGAIN, I am talking about MY stats that I earned that got taken away from me & replaced with a tiny portion + a tiny tiny bit of bleed from SP, augments, arts. No one gave that to me, I spent years playing this game to earn my stats. I earned everything I've gotten. I know my role and I'm a team player. Perhaps someday some company will take away from you something you earned and tell you it's for the greater good.

    If restoring +20 CR is this much of a threat to the pro clamp camp, then keep it, I will continue to stay in End Game content, Where I Belong right?
    • Like x 6
  5. shoegazer Well-Known Player

    WHO CARES

    There are plenty of people here that think elite needs to be adjusted MAYBE you should talk to them
    • Like x 2
  6. Zneeak Devoted Player

    Funny you say this, because despite the Devs continous requests in feedback from the community to keep adjusting the Clamp acordingly, we've had dozens upon dozens of continous threads consisting of mostly screaming and whining from the "Anti-Clamp side", with some players showing little to no reasonability what so ever, unless the Devs practically undo the Stat Clamp all together.

    Frankly, it's about time that some of you actually got over yourselves and this illusion that you EVER OWNED ANY RIGHT to keep stats, to a point so high as to powerhouse your way through both older, regular and elite-content instances alike. It was a nice, unintended ride that went on for longer than it should have.

    It's over now, but it is STILL easier than at-level. The Clamp just made some players having to actually start paying a little more attention, and that clearly ruffled some feathers. It does however not change the need for the Clamp to be in place, if anything it further proves it.
    • Like x 3
  7. Grim931 Committed Player

    Isn't that the entire point of being a super hero/villain though, to become a powerhouse? At some point there has to be a realization that we are super powered beings, and attaining power is kind of the entire goal of the game. Becoming stronger, faster, more resilient, those all should be the what were striving for. Obviously, when that gets stripped away to this degree, there's going to be backlash. Clearly people were having fun with it, and the most I've seen from the Anti-clamp were people asking for the option to have it with or without. Not removed entirely.

    Intended or not, the game should still maintain the theme. Being able to grow and get stronger is definitely a part of that and any sense of progression has pretty much been cut out of EEG.

    I could not care less if the content is easier than at level, I don't want to be reverted back to where I was at years ago. Losing power in a super power themed game is not the right direction. This isn't WoW, it's DC. So yeah, wanting a character that can smash through old content like Superman kind of fits the theme...
    • Like x 3
  8. Reinheld Devil's Advocate

    While I also dislike runs where 2+ cogs are needed like Inner, BBS, Khandaq or god forbid...Prison Break, I debate that they were never easy. When those runs were current (ok...I was not here when Khandaq or Inner were current), and run every day (alerts)...or at a minimum every week, you were running THOSE raids....not much else. Much like TSD or the alert today, the mechanics don't need to be explained to 7 (or 3) every time. Sure some 1 guy might be a noob and drop orbital or F up the Mxy games(both things done on purpose pretty much at this point BTW), but likely everyone in there has run it this week...last week or the previous 3 months at one point as the DLC grows to a close. Cut to a few months or year from now, when these runs are run sporatically via a random queue and it will be worse...just like it's worse in the years old Omni content. FGS is a good example. How many random runs are you picking up bodies in the outer circle of the zeus fight? We knew to avoid it by midpoint of that dlc...you didn't need to tell anyone "stay out of the lightning that's killing you".

    Take the DM card game. By the end of the M2 DLC I hardly ran into a queue up group that didn't know how to do the cards OR knew not to touch them and let someone else do it. A month or 2 later during BOP ...not even clamped at that point... I'd never random queue that run because the fresh players were arriving and well....see button=press button kicks in and it's a fail fest. The 2nd boss rocks and block and 3rd boss 6 man lockdown mechanics....Now? No chance. That run is verboten in my opinion. Want another example? Fatal Exams. When it was current, it was common that you'd see the 'grades' feat pop...maybe even perfect grades, without having to ask about it or explain anything. Getting the stuff right makes the run quicker, so people did it right after a few times running. Now, even with explanation I've yet to see a group beat the wind tunnel, place the components and colors in the last boss and NO ONE seems to know how to guide a laser into the right spot. With the omni and clamp and all content being 'for everyone' you are almost guaranteed that it's someone's first time in there...or in any run. THAT is the reason that some runs are harder....even though the content itself is easier (as you point out correctly)...and I don't see it changing even with a role based tutorial or all the BIG RED LETTER messages that can be added.

    And yes, what I had heard back then was that people would join the game, then never get off the ship...decide it's a stupid game(yeah...the game is stupid...not the player who can't press and hold Triangle or double tap X) and move along to something else. It's hard to sell replays, respecs, TCs, Armories and Artis to people who are stuck on the ship, so get them out of there and deal with the fallout later.
    • Like x 2
  9. DeitySupreme Steadfast Player

    The thing is that we don’t own those or any stats. They could one day decide that stats in general became out of control and cut everyone’s stats to 10% of what they are now and they’d have every right to do so. I get that don’t like that stats are reduced in early content. I do. And to you it’s the principle of it being reduced more than anything else. However it still doesn’t change that stats clamp was needed for multiple reasons. Some I listed before and also because players steam rolling content kept leading to more bugs as some boss mechanics weren’t designed with people stats growing at such a rate. So they kept having to allocate resources to continue patching more and more bugs. After all is said and done the clamp is needed for the long term health of the game. There’s a reason so many games have similar systems in place. Even games you yourself said you loved have the clamp system in place. The difference being that they had the system in place before you started playing (I assume) compared to dcuo doing it now.

    Another point I keep hearing people make is that the clamp killed progression. That is just a straight but lie/bad information. You still need to gear up to be able to get into new dlcs. Stop progressing and you’ll always be 3 DLCs behind the rest of the community.

    And finally, difficulty of content is always easier when in EEG than compared to EG. The wonderverse DLC is proof of that.
  10. Plowed In Loyal Player

    It’s a video game.

    I’m not engaging with content that I’m simply walking thru, that’s the point.

    From the other side though, simply saying “I’ll just stay in endgame” is also not engaging with it.

    The change was hard. The devs have been responsive to altering it. It’ll shake out over time.
    • Like x 1
  11. DeitySupreme Steadfast Player

    I definitely agree. There will always be player who just can’t help but be ignorant and ignore things that are as obvious as big red letters. But tutorials will help a lot with players knowing what augments to use. How to pull and hold aggro as a tank. How to heal. Even how to troll. A tutorial could even show players about power interactions and other stuff. A tutorial can be been made showing players that skill means block (even thou I personally think it’s obvious). While tutorials will never fix everything, it would help a lot.

    One thing a lot of companies do a bad job in is how they implement power creep and new features. Look at warframe. A game I love yet I don’t recommend to new players. Over the years new features get added to replace old features or new in general. But tutorials aren’t added to explain these new features. So players who have been playing for a long time learn the new features over time while new players get everything thrown at them at once. Using dcuo as an example you have the mods/augment system. Before we had to craft mods and use those to equip into gear. They modding system was turned into augments while giving everyone 4 of every augment. Artifacts where introduced after players were geared and there were few artifacts. But now new players get their artifact mission while leveling and gain access to so many artifacts. We recently got allies while we were at endgame while new players get this while touring the HoL. Now while the allies do have their own tutorial, there is still a lot that new players aren’t really guided through.
    • Like x 1
  12. Zneeak Devoted Player

    Well, the entire point of becoming stronger is to be able to face the stronger, bigger evil. Not to keep roflstomping the same old hoodlums, lol. That's how easily that angle falls apart right there.

    And if that angle doesn't do it, the entire Dev's own Data and reasonings around too much powercreep over the long run logically sums it up for us. The problem is that people don't tend to respond very well when changes disrupt their comfort zones and the benefits they reap from it.... But that doesn't mean a change wasn't needed, because it most certainly was.

    Also, it wasn't removed entirely. Not by a longshot. Anyone who is trying to state this is being very biased and dishonest, at best. The Clamp again STILL made things easier than at-level, and they are STILL making adjustments around it... That is, if people are a little more reasonable than "REVERT BACK NAOW" or "MAKE IT OPTIONAL SO THE CHANGES STILL BECOMES OBSOLETE TO ME".

    Sadly, a lot of the feedback from the Anti-clamp haven't been very reasonable at all. Just quick to point the finger and blame "the OTHER side" while preparing 43 new threads all covering the same, exact subject we've already been through, yet again. :p
    • Like x 4
  13. Melusine Midnight Rainbow Phoenix

    Dear Pro-Clamp friends,
    Ok so I think there's a translation issue here. The people that feel progression has been trivialized are always the same people that feel they've had had something earned taken away from them. That's because what is being discussed isn't actually stat numerics, nor CR gains -- it's investment security!

    For years the people in charge said you could out-gear and go back to old stuff for feats and whatever. That's a broken promise. I'm not saying one way or another if it's necessary, but it is a major about-face. I think no matter how anyone feels about the issue, we can all agree that they used to say one thing, and now they are saying and doing another.

    Because the devs et al. have changed course, people no longer feel like the investment of time they have put into the game holds the same value. Not saying more or less, but it's not the same. That makes people feel duped, because they were told their time investment meant one thing, ie that they could out-gear content, but now it longer holds that meaning. Yes, people are upset generically about change, but the reason people are upset by this particular implementation of change is because it directly contradicts what they were told previously, and may have planned around.

    ==================================================================================================

    Dear Anti-Clamp friends,
    Yes, the devs used to be on a different path, and they made statements based on their vision for the game. No matter how you feel about these changes, I think it's fair to say that on Day 1, or even Day 1000, the devs couldn't have foreseen the current state of the game. We can all agree that significant changes always require adjustments. I'm not asking you to agree with these changes, or their implementation, but I am asking that you recognize that there was a need for some changes.

    The devs have told us that some level of clamping or damage/powercreep mitigation is needed to prevent bugs and glitched instances. I don't believe that there's anyone here that wants glitched content which can't be completed. So there was at least a need for some change.

    So far, the devs have lessened the clamp gradually over time. It seems they will continue to do so, with the current focus being older Elites. While I personally feel the implementation was flawed (which I have outlined elsewhere), I also accept that change was needed. I don't like the ones we got, but I am likewise observing the devs tuning the level of the clamp to allow us to be as powerful as possible without re-introducing bugs.

    If the clamp was removed entirely, that would indeed re-introduce bugs. Given that it took the majority of a DLC-lifespan to make these changes, what can we reasonably expect? Like, if they just took off the clamp, and thus re-introduced glitches, that would necessitate another long-term fix. Meanwhile they are lessening the clamp over time, and fine tuning specific outlier instances.

    Again, I'm not a big fan of what we've wound up with from clamping. But I know we needed something. No matter how we feel about it, these are the changes we have and the devs seem to be working with us. I'd rather they work with feedback to find the best balance, than that they are forced to re-work the whole thing, at the cost of content.

    ==================================================================================================

    Y'all, they are working with us. Literally all of us. Hardcores have further difficulties in Elite raids. Casuals have more access than ever before, especially to styles. Pro-clampers, it's here to stay, but it still won't teach the game. Anti-clampers, they're lessening it to the sweet spot so we have power without glitches, but it will never quite be what it used to be.

    Try to be clear with suggestions, feedback and specifics. Try to be sensitive to the experience of your fellow gamers.

    There's just a crazy amount of "if you didn't suck you'd agree!" in these threads. And liiiiike I'm pretty certain that doesn't get anywhere where they really want to go.

    ==================================================================================================

    TL: DR Differing viewpoints can co-exist. Be considerate.
    • Like x 2
  14. Essential Exobyte Dedicated Player

    Or we could’ve kept our stats and had a filter applied so that can be easily adjusted and not every stat in the game. My version of the clamp was to cut off the ends of god mode while keeping the middle part of mass destruction. It would then be up to the players to take a piece off if they want to do feats rather than everyone be at the same stats and can’t take stuff off as you are clamped right back to the same numbers. It has to be a win-win to be fair to all.

    And at the same time, devs are nerfing everything as they clamp it. Past content was hard and now it’s just laughable easy. Necropolis was a Scratchy B to do in 15minutes for speed feat and now it is instant 7 minutes clamped with no effort. Smh. How does that teach ppl mechanics to lunge the bosses to avoid artifact enhancements? It doesn’t as it don’t kill you anymore.

    This whole clamp thingy has ducked everything up. It’s like previous stuff (wm, am, sr) but with a new name.
    • Like x 2
  15. Proxystar #Perception

    As you'll possibly know I've moved from being rabidly anti clamp to positively supporting the clamp.

    The argument about feats is one I ran from the anti clamp perspective - so I know it all too well.

    In an effort to be transparent though and objectively honest, the statement you have made here (quoted above) is actually objectively false, it was false when I used it and it was false when you use it.

    To provide more context:-

    The desire to keep content as easy as it was unclamped is a selfish desire spawning from a player wanting to tread the path of least resistance or a player that knows they're simply not really that good.

    Players want to keep feats super easy, so much so, the ultimate desire is to be able to do it in your sleep.

    The truth is, it shouldn't be that way and it should probably never have been that way.

    There has to be a balance between perseverance of the challenge so that it retains value while also becoming 'easier' so as to provide evidence of a players growth (to provide satisfaction) while also allowing a player of less skill to have a go at something that might no longer need to be entirely preserved, as top end players looking for that challenge have also progressed to newer challenges.

    There is no broken promise because what you're doing is using a misleading term to give an errant impression of reality, the term I'm referring to is "out-gear" and the reason it is misleading is because we know they're primarily clamping gear stats and because they're clamped the suggestion or use of the word "out-gear" gives a false impression that "out-gearing" cannot happen and therefore whips people up in to the wrong impression of how progress actually works, especially under the new system.

    The reality however is is entirely different and the better term would be that you can "over-power" something.

    A player under the clamped system is demonstrably and quite evidentially stronger than they were when the content was relevant, You, as the player continue to progress but once the content reaches EEG it's about as easy as it's ever going to get or the progress slows ,significantly slower, to the point of almost appearing static.

    The issue really is how much "easier" should something become, the devs only ever said the feats would become easier as we progressed, that statement remains true, even today, the only difference being, the devs have drawn a line in the sand and said "yeah it's no longer going to be quite as easy to the extent you can sleepwalk".

    TLDR - There's no broken promise.
    • Like x 5
  16. Alpha Maximum Well-Known Player


    All your points are completely valid and accurate. You just can't meet the "usual suspects" (that post 16+ hours a day every day somehow) half way because their half way is for you to be quite, praise the all mighty DCUO, accept they are right in all things, and while you're at it all hail the stat clamp.

    You make a perfect and completely accurate point about how you earned your stats over the years which is a fact and they pivot to talking about how you don't own the game. That is a classic move of people that already know they lost the discussion. Change to a topic they think they can win. The facts are indisputable we signed up for a game, we earned our CR, arts, stats, etc. and now they have been massively nerfed. That is fact and no amount of them pivoting will change that reality.

    I personally have no desire to pull the long ladder up after myself and spout "get gud" and "work harder" when I got to get all those sweet feats when it was significantly easier back when progression meant something.

    This argument is the most bizarre: "Content was never meant to be steam rolled it was always supposed to be a challenge at all levels." ----- Uhm wrong. For ten years new content upped the difficultly so you got new gear to up your power to match the new tougher content while all your progression allowed you to beat low level content easier which is an industry standard in games and the whole point of progression.

    That's enough of my soapbox. I know the people on the forums will not be the decider in any of this. it will be the money and player turn over. I know enough people zip in to the game then see progression means nothing and then quit often enough that it's been noticed. In game comments, and I could be wrong here as it's just what I have seen, seem to be overwhelmingly anti stat clamp to at least really irritated progression ultimately means little if you never get to be a powerhouse like we used to be.

    [IMG]
    • Like x 4
  17. HooLeeCow Well-Known Player

    People crying about feats like it means something . Well after last "skill points matter" update SP dosnt mater .Whats mater the most is artifacts and gear .
    I got problem with this thread becouse i like when its harder but in same time i hate when they change something after half of comunity complet it on esay lvl .
    Thats mean stats clamp on new content from now on sure for old content not realy .
    How many of you wait like 5 dlc to complete some hard feats ? its quite not fair just like glitching !
    People glitch to get feats then devs fix glitch but they dont remove feats from those who used glitch . Flash to fucture elite for example many people made no death feats using glitch specialy on those hard versions .Devs fix glitch and they didnt take a way feat from people when its clear 99.9 % if not 100 % who got that feat are glitch abusers .By the way those social justice feats are cancer in my opinion like you got a bro who pee in pants yours mom is angry becouse he is 12 years old but some how you cant get candy .
    No death feats why not but individual .
  18. Destinywlf Active Player

    *yawn* oh look another stat clamp thread.
  19. the solowing Steadfast Player

    Dont see any pugs in LFG, and i don't feel like building the group myself lol.

    So i just stick to endgame elite duo/alert since those will pop if i queue for them.
    • Like x 1
  20. Tiffany6223 Loyal Player

    This is strange because you drag me kicking & screaming into Omni lol

    Actually after this thread, I don't care to ever run anything not End Game ever again, even Wonderverse, which was my favorite dlc of all time. Early End Game content has been ruined for me in so many ways, but it is the attitudes of the pro clamp group that just makes me despise the thought of running anything that is not the most current 3 DLCs.

    Maybe I should think about retiring from DC. Between the changes to Membership and the stat clamp to the attitudes of my fellow gamers (I lost someone who was a close friend because of an argument about stats clamp), I truly don't feel wanted as a customer / gamer by Daybreak anymore.
    • Like x 3