Seems like even the dps understood my statement but you didnt (like always with your critical replys) and yes i would have no issue with 2 trollers and 2 healers. It would be much more balanced but dont forget that most players are DPS on DCUO so having 3 DPS is fine with 2 tanks 2 heals 1 troll but 5 is seriously just too much and not fair distrubution of rolls its pretty simple to understand. The fact that the newest Elite raids can be done with only one of each support roll and 5 DPS (same setup as regular) shows that the designs arent optimal for Elite and show why endgame players get bored of the Elite raid content quick. And the DPS should never have such large impact (it should have some impact ofcourse but not to the point where it is extreme) on how difficult it is on the Tank on Elite raids to the point where the emerald eyes etc die so quick that most challenge for the Tank is gone. I like the emerald eyes but if they die in 7 seconds due to High DPS the whole threat on the Tank is gone. Looking at a Elite raid like false idols Elite first boss where one Tank has to survive those few sub-bosses thats a actuall real difficulty and a much more challenging design longterm for the Tanks because the DPS cant burn through them due to the phonix etc. Such designs are much better then your typicall „kill all adds strategy as soon as possible with 5 DPS“ thats boring and not enjoyable or fun longterm. So Elite raids should be designed for 2 Tanks also if you would really think about it you would know that support rolls work together the more pressure on the Tanks (very high incoming damage) the more pressure on the heal (higher power consumption) and that puts the troller under pressure which would increases the chance that groups would use a additional heal/troll but a second troller isnt as impactfull as a second Tank or second healer. Elite raids can be designed in a way to force people to use 2 Tanks (false idols Elite,darksides war factory Elite,throne of the death elite only very very few elite raids that needs 2 Tanks but i think it should be always the case to make sure its maximum only 4 DPS in the group i personally think darksides war factory Elite is the best example of this topic and All boss fights there need 2 Tanks and its equally as difficult on both Tanks seriously whoever made that design did a amazing Job. I dont think it is possible to force people to use a second heal or troll unless they make one heal/troll unable to use its powers due to a mechanic for a long time (but NOT a short one like being mind controlled 5 seconds) to force a second heal/troll.
Does anyone have any idea how many good tanks are still in the wild (not relegated to league runs only)? I've only seen one tank in the wild recently and he was terrible. It was only a duo but he basically was only doing weapon attacks the entire time
1. I perfectly understood your statement and I perfectly understand all the statements you make, I will however verbalise when I disagree with them and that is what I'm often doing, because I disagree with, not all, but sometimes some of your many fundamental views it seems. This isn't because I'm critical of you personally, but because I'm critial of the ideas. I have no "beef" with you per se. 2. The reason content is designed the way that it often is, is because it creates the greatest level of flexibility for groups to create their own role structures while retaining the possibility of success. if people want to make 2-2-2-2 groups they can, if they want to make 1-1-1-5 groups they can and so forth. The exception to the rule I will point out is that there's generally no requirement for a second troll and at times even "a troll" at all, because that role is quite realistically fundamentally broken on many levels. 3. Different group structures will have pros and cons depending on what roles they've taken with those cons creating weak points in places and strengths in others, for example if you take 1 of each support role you can burn quicker, eliminating the threat quicker, if you take 2 tanks, things are better controlled, 2 healers and people are at less risk of death, but with a prolonged fight, there's greater chance for error. With that being said I'm quite happy for some fights to require two tanks, not because I believe it's "good" but because I understand it creates a level of variance to keeps things entertaining. 4. The spanner that is thrown in to the works there is when the developers create "burn checks" on bosses where it isn't just a case of methodical survival and error free performance but rather having to have a certain "level of burn" in order to stop a guaranteed group wide wipe. Players will therefore stack DPS in every circumstance where that occurs to ensure that wipe is avoided. 5. If you were to enforce a two tank style instance you'll also have to account for what burn might then be available in an average or likely group, resulting in you having to consider, burn timers or health of the NPC etc. It isn't simply a case of saying "make everything hit uber hard, load the instance up with uber adds to overwhelm a tank", while retaining over the top burn checks, that sort of approach is nonsensical and simply short sighted while entirely ignoring the bigger picture. 6. I do not agree that any content should be designed with an absolute requirement to be done a certain way, I know it happens, at times, and obviously as you've stated it is your preference that they do this, however, it doesn't make your preference the "be all and end all", we all have different preferences and mine for example is for content that doesn't drive any particular build at all but rather allows the players the flexibility to choose their own structure. 7. What will also happen if you push in two tanks and I think you'd have to say in fairness two healers (if what you're saying is you want to pressure the healers) then it will push other areas to compensate damage loss. you'll push controllers for example in to "buff builds" a lot of controllers already are, even with the stacked damage dealers and they'll feel compelled to run certain artifacts such as tetra, and the claw and only ever those artifacts. Controllers already complain they feel like batteries, are they going to feel any better when they realise they're nothing more than a walking DPS buff trinket? 8. You've often talked about the most recent raid for example and cited "how easy you find it", that's probably the moment some people would give you the "slow clap" in congratulations, but I've tanked this elite raid too and completed it, so to give a differing perspective that sometimes is useful, especially for the developers; You've often stated that the first boss poses no challenge to the tank, I find this to be particularly disingenuous, this fight can be quite challenging to a tank player, you have to ensure you first grab them all before they kill the group, the eyeballs can then really hurt you as a tank while you're having to kite them around, stun them where possible, while also paying attention to not being countered by Trigon. The quicker these adds are burned the better. This is somewhat made easier if there is a second healer, but then there's also reduced burn. This has again lead groups to use buff trolls to buff damage, use the suicide artifact (although I acknowledge they'd probably use that anyway) and some groups are even using "Righteous Pyres" to burn Shadow Trigon faster as well", and that's also all happening with even a solo healer at times. All of that is not necessarily an easy feat for the tank, it's all happening at once and requires a certain level of skill to undertake effectively without just being one shot or overwhlemed, while you're doing that of course I should add you're avoiding tentacles and other mechanics. Notwithstanding all those points, the power of the tank also determines the ease at which a player might tank; because despite all attempts in the world by the developers, powers simply are not all equal. Earth tanks for example might have a harder time than a Rage tank and that's simply because of how the powers operate. Have you tried Brick tanking for example and witnessed how quickly Brick is annihilated by the eyes. You're then left jackhammer tanking, which isn't terrible but does create the additional complexity of allowing yourself the time and opportunity to keep your stone skin active. Now of course rage tanks have to keep severe punshiment up and cancel etc, so there are certainly different challenges to different powers. I often find your position to be somewhat disingenuous of those realities and often lacking in real detail because your positions often just amount to "get good", "buff this", "this hits me like a piece of wet lettuce" with seemingly a lack of any real honest analysis or even a recognition of your own skill level and how your experience might differ, it's all just about what poses a challenge to you subjectively, which is fine but needs to be remembered. The second boss in the raid is by far the easiest, but in saying that I feel it's more of a group cohesion check in that they need to be aware of what the eye is doing, what attack it's doing and then moving as a group accordingly. It may not be a threat to the tank, but it is to the rest of the group and not all bosses are necessarily there to challenge the tank to an overwhelming extent. Moving on to the last boss (Mordru) You've then got mechanics that test the entire group, such as the push back (where you lunge in or position closer) and have to avoid getting too close. In addition when he grows to his final form, the tank has to deal with adds, this requires the tank to be aware of the situation around them, when the adds spawn, where they are, maintain control of them and also maintain an appropriate position in front of Mordru to avoid being pushed off the ledge. For a competent tank this isn't necessarily the most difficult but it still requires a reasonable level of awareness to undertake. In summary, you're right this isn't particularly the most difficult raid the game has ever made, but you're downplaying of it, is also to some extent disingenuous. Your feedback only reflects your own personal experience, not that shared by any others and equally so you'd say the same of mine, but that's the point, all our experiences are different. The reality is the raid can be more difficult depending on what roles you've got, the experience level of the players involved and where you possibly got them from. For example raiding with PUGS is likely to be substantially harder than a cohesive league run. You only have to go as far as Twitch and watch some of the live streams of people running it to see the real perspective (don't watch Youtube, because people cherry pick their best runs to showcase) but on Twitch you can see the amount of times people will sit there and fail first and last boss, sometimes even second boss, repeatedly, They'll be in there for hours on end as well, some of these people are even people that claim to be top 1%ers in terms of player ability, but the others in the group aren't and this should tell you something about what I just said in this post. These players often will eventually complete the content, but certainly not without struggle, hence my assertion to you that suggesting it's super easy, is as I've said disingenuous. There's massive swathes of this game that probably can't even dream of getting past first boss in elite even though you've said it's "super easy". I think at times people need to be a bit more relaxed with this whole "Mega Buff" content nonsense, if something is super easy it'll come out in the wash for sure and it always has, look at FBE for example, COUE for example might not be the hardest raid, but it's certainly also not the easiest and no two raids are ever going to be the same including their difficulty level. Sorry for the essay, but I finally had a moment to give you a more comprehensive response, it's been a busy week
Well its true that it is flexibile but also boring and quick at the same time i wanna point out that quick Elite raids are simply not longterm enjoyable such designs arent longterm challenging if they let DPS have such large impact on the succes of a Elite raid. I personally dislike designs like these and the current one is the perfect example,its pretty clear that people dont enjoy such designs you dont seem to like it and i absolutly am dissapointed by it well even if they are flexible its not the type of content that is longterm enjoyable or difficult (This is Elite not regular) with the current design of 5-1-1-1 and by the way i never seen anyone use 2-2-2-2 and very very rarely you will see someone use 2 Tanks in that raid. Elite raids must be challenging for many months such designs like the current one are not gonna give us that. Simple. Regarding streamers they seem to struggle on the first boss mainly because the Tank is dying from what i seen you do need to know this that even regular skilled Tank players start doing Elite raids with succes they might struggle but even such low/average skilled players are able to finish it if you have 2 healers on the group that use a shield for example and a troller debuffing adds with 4 DPS that have good dps its almost impossible die as Tank it is such a simple design but also boring due to that fact.If we get 2 raids per episode one should be for 2 Tanks if you look older raids that needed 2 Tanks such designs stay longterm challenging and fun and arent boring like the current one. See even The Tanks couldnt Tank older Elite raids solo like monsters of metal Elite or phonix cannon Elite but they can do this currrent one which shows that this raid is easyier on the Tanks compared to other Elite raids that needed real skill on such designs for example say monsters of metal Elite the group cant carry the Tank also on a raid like phonix cannon Elite first boss the Tank is responsible to block the skull attack from the Boss and move to the spots to avoid the one-shot such elite raids are much better and are skill based aswell as more enjoyable i personally think sometimes they focus too much on making things hard on the DPS and forget that Tanks should be the one that should struggle to survive thats the whole point of being a Tank right? Elite Raids that need 2 Tanks can give us longterm challenge aswell as new designs etc and is more based on the support rolls mostly the Tanks ,the DPS should help a Tank but they shouldnt be able to litteraly carry the Tank like it is the case on the first boss from my viewpoint the designers or some have definelty not focused much on making it harder on the Tanks it has become so far that in the current Elite raid it is sometimes harder to stay alive as a DPS/troll/heal then as a Tank this shouldnt happen seriously the second boss is the best example of this. Also again we are talking about Elite raids (the most difficult endgame content) a 5-1-1-1 setups is just litteraly not what the endgame content should be the flexibility shouldnt be the reason to defend it its litteraly the same setup as regular how would you expect the people to longterm enjoy such designs? How come people loved throne of the death which on the first boss needed 3 tanks when it first came out? Definetly 10x times more fun then having 5 DPS that carry a raid. If they want to challenge us with new fresh things longterm which needs real skill they have to do design it for 2 Tanks and make it hard on both Tanks and less about Damage and this way more DPS players (which most players are in DCUO) can also join Elite groups since it wont be much about damage but rather about the support (Tanks)rolls. Enough of the 5 DPS designs its clear that it is a boring one and a non challenging one on the support rolls and longterm boring. Its been one month and the current elite raid is done many people dont even log on since its so easy and fast so they lose on players due to such designs. I personallly dislike DPS checks for example like the second boss has,i would like to see them design elite raids to give support rolls a larger impact on succes or failure,now i didnt say the first boss was super easy (with good DPS it is) i was in good groups and bad groups and the difference is massive its basically to have DPS that kill them superfast but then wheres the challenge for the Tank? I personally like the first boss more compared to the second or last boss and im absolutly against such designs that makes DPS have so much impact on the Difficulty on Tanks (on Elite) i get that it can be considered a strategy but its a very boring one to me and the core/main difficulty on the Tank should never be changeable by the DPS and if this current Raid design was so good the Devs wouldve seen it but most people i know are absolutly underwhelmed and dissapointed by it and i know that devs realized this aswell. I would rather like to see designs more heavily on support rolls the current one is as i said mainly about damage and do you enjoy it? I dont think it is your favorite is it? They need to make Elite raids harder for Tanks in general and less about Damage, FBE was indeed super easy and its clear that many many endgame players (that all pay membership or own the episode) dislike such easy and simple Elite raid designs. The 5-1-1-1 burn everything and be done in 15 minute type of Elite raids need to stop.
I get what you’re frustrated at, but this is one of the dumbest requests I have seen in a while in these forums.
What i also need to say is that your replys are mainly about justifying the designs of the devs even though you dont enjoy it yourself that much but you are still fine with it (which confuses me) and your replys are mainly in a way to not criticize the designs the devs do why? keep in mind thats not how the game is going to get better and if we dont say whats wrong they wont be able to give Endgame players the content they want its pretty obvious that the current design is not optimal not popular and just because it is flexible doesnt mean it is good it might be flexible but doesnt have longevity and the main goal of the devs should be to keep endgame players busy longterm playing the episode / elite raid are they fine with people stopping the game due to boredom from Elite raids after 3-4 weeks of the episode release? this setup is not optimal (5-1-1-1) and also the design is wrong (damage dealers shouldnt have the most impact on Elite raids succes it should be the Support rolls) for that and by the way they dont need to adjust HP levels just because people would use 1-2 less DPS because it would be a safer design with more support rolls so it should be a longer fight thats how Elite bossfights should be thats the whole point do we wait 4 months for a elite raid just to kill the boss in 5 minutes? Thats not how to keep people entertained on endgame level esepcially since elite raids are the ONLY difficult content of a episode its Pretty simple. The message that people arent happy with such designs came across and i hope we can see improvments from now on.
I'm just going to quote this post but will address a few things from your other post as well; 1. I'm not justifying the designs of the devs and even if I were, that's my preorgative, players enjoy different things, that's what personal preferences are. 2. In my post I highlighted the very things that in fact do challenge the tank that often in your own feedback you're not acknowledging or entirely glossing as if they're not an issue. 3. You state that tanks on twitch are the problem, this is entirely incorrect, I've equally seen bad burn, and bad healing that have caused the wipes and even if the tanks were the problem, as you've suggested, then that would demonstrably prove that your position "the raid is uber easy on tanks" to be entirely false, which is it? 4. You can say what you think is "subjectively wrong", but that's what it'll always be, just your view. I mean looking through the feedback threads, there's not this "overwhelming degree" of feedback saying 'buff this raid' there's the odd post and certainly you're posting every second time, but that doesn't constitute anything over whelming, just because you're spamming a thread with personal feedback. I get the general feeling many in this community find the raid a little easy, well certainly in comparison to FGSE which was just before it, but that doesn't mean it's also the easiest one we ever had. A lot of people raved about how good HIVEE was as an elite raid at the time, said it was amazing but despite the fact it had engaging mechanics, I wouldn't have called that raid any harder than COUE. 5. You appear to now be acknowledging my point though about DPS, if you want to introduce 2 tanking then you're going to have to fundamentally address the issue of "why people are stacking damage dealers" in the first place, until you do that, nothing is going to change. 6. Also I'm curious as we can readily point out there's already examples of where two tanks are required or are useful, which is actually quite often, for my own clarification of your position, do you want literally every fight, to require two tanks? 7. The thing I would say as well is this whole issue highlights why only making one raid is such a mistake, typically when there's been two raids developed more personal expectations have been met, now that there is only the one raid the pressure has gone on everywhere to attempt to ensure the raid pleases 'everyone', when there simply isn't the volume content to do so. Like you've pointed out, have one raid, that requires two tanks. Love the idea, but when there's only one raid being made, it'll always be more difficult to incorporate everyone's personal preferences.
The runs i did see on twitch was where the Tank didnt pull all of the eyes or rage crashed or where the Tank is letting the boss face the group which will one shot anyone that is infront of the boss except the Tank ( the black beam)so thats why i said Tanks fault yes alot of the times also the damage would be too low i saw that on another stream but then again if people with rank 140 artifacts dpsing its a different story and alot of those people couldnt finish older Elite raids. Im not saying buff the Raid not at all just making sure to avoid such designs and setups its too late to adjust it. I personally liked HIVEE much much more all bossfights were actually hard from a Tank perspective And on the last boss it needed 2 Tanks and it was a struggle if i remember correctly it got nerfed slighty shorty after? Which i dont agree with ! But i trust in Charon for the future Elite raids. Im expecting 2 raids from now on per episode ideally both raids should have most of the bossfights where 2 Tanks are needed if we get only one raid (i hope not) i would expect 2 out of 3 bossfights to be with 2 Tanks ideally all of them because it is Elite they need to limit the DPS even 4 is alot but better then 5,generally they design Elite raids for a off Tank but it doesnt matter since people always try to stack as much DPS in the group as possible so they need to force groups to use 2 Tanks otherwise it will always be for 1 Tank. Now when it comes to two Tanks setup i believe only the raid from episode 24 (dark sides war factory elite) had such design where the complete raid needed 2 Tanks and on top of that it was one of the hardest elite raids ever. Ideally we will get something like darksides war factory Elite difficulty wise and on that Raid all bossfights needed 2 Tanks and the difficulty was equal on both Tanks and Whoever designed and adjusted that Elite raid did a very good job. Such a Elite raid will be longterm interesting and will make people gear up and so on to try defeating the Bosses.
You're right that tanks can cause problems, but that's of course part of why it's not entirely smooth sailing for a tank, I would say there's far more tanks in the game that can't tank that than can in terms of pure player volumes. I agree with your acknowledgement that sometimes the burn is too low and this is what I'm saying and that's why people are stacking DPS every time in raids. I will admit there are absolutely occurences where some DPS need to get better and increase damage output, but that's why content needs to be designed realistically as there's numerous play styles in the game now especially with artifacts, unless of course we're saying to everyone, these are the 3 artifacts you must have for elite, end of (that in my opinion would be bad design). For clarities sake, I'm all for "two tanking" some fights, just not every fight is what I'm saying. It really does seem like we're not really in that much disagreement other than the fact you perhaps like doing it a bit more whereas I don't mind solo tanking. MOME was another ok raid in my opinion and there was heavy two tanking in that raid too I must admit, so I do enjoy it sometimes, you'll note there also wasn't over the top DPS checks though, other than obviously to say things had to generally speaking be burned before they became over whelming or a problem.
Agreed there for sure. MOME Was indeed a really good Elite raid from metal Part 1 also the other raid in that Episode false idols Elite needed 2 Tanks on 2 out of 3 bossfights and such designs are muchhh more enjoyable longterm and difficult longterm they need to work in this direction further whoever made Metal 1 part Raids was doing a amazing Job design wise and difficulty and so on.
Yeah it's all just about balance. If we take for example the DME second boss fight that type of burn check is always going to end up in a DPS stack with singular support, because they're basically saying burn this before 5 phases or RiP everyone. It's probably those sorts of burn checks I detest the most really, because they push exactly what you're saying 5-1-1-1 and it'll happen every time. I personally think though at times that's because damage dealers disproportionately represent most of the community and thus the feedback at times always just amounts to "need DPS checks so we can flex" type feedback because to many people the only thing that matters is damage out on the scoreboard. So for what its worth I appreciate talking about better balancing support roles, because hopefully it would encourage more support players long term, although I think there's a bunch of people out there simply too scared to tank because reality is, if something goes wrong in a raid, all eyes in the raid immediately look at the tank and go
I dont have a issue with one bossfight that needs a DPS check per raid if the most of the other boss fights in the raid/s need 2 Tanks i think thats a good balance generally yes as i said earlier most players are DPS but every player can play one support roll and 3-4 DPS out of 8 players will still be a bigger number then 2 Tanks i think thats a fairly good balance. Ideally they do DPS checks and 2 Tanks setup and design at the same Bossifghts? Lets see theres many things they can do but i know that there will be changes so im really excited for the changes which obviously my feedback is there for Future episodes too not just the next one.
Everyone can play a support role, but they won't lol, the amount of people that simply refuse is right up there, it's because the only thing with community recognition is "Let's DPS Comp bruh".
Just because you don't agree doesn't make it dumb. The fact you are triggered by a discussion, means either you are one of those types of players I'm talking about or you are just rude. Either way if you don't have anything else to say than that, please refrain from commenting in a civil thread and take your ignorance somewhere else.
My understanding of dom is how well your powers actually effect the npc. So low dom means a pull will not actually pull the npc close if he has a high level but if I have high dom it will. Powers reacting to the npc should effect aggro more than not. However with my atomic tank I use might and dom split because I assume might also has an effect on aggro. If I was say an ice tank I would focus all on dom for the shields and needing the taunts to be effective as they can be since using might with that would killl me. I’ll be honest tho, I don’t really spend a lot of time on the numbers and I could be totally wrong.
Every time I run duos. My teammates have usually been people who only use weapon attacks and movement powers... These have been mid 100 missions as well as I’m leveling an alt while getting back into dc lol. Anyways the only ising weapon attacks partner has been very common on my end.
your dominance has to be greater than the NPC's willpower in order to pull or use crowd control, if you've got more than the suggested dominance outlined for the instance that should be sufficient, remember it's just the adds; your pulls aren't going to magically yank the boss in to you. In terms of Atomic, reading the tooltip it says your healing back is all based on your dominance, given you'll be doing that and using some degree of shielding most likely I don't see the benefit of specing in to 'might', it's probably more beneficial to stack dominance until max followed by health and then maybe restoration for additional shield strength if SP permits.
