Obsolete OP Styles

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by Kanniu, Aug 22, 2020.

  1. Kanniu Well-Known Player

    A bit of a rant, but I've run Darkseid's War Factory at least 150 Times and the elite alerts at least 300 times and still haven't gotten the op items to drop. While a league mate of mine has run these less than half the times I have and gotten them AT LEAST 2 times. I know it's supposed to be random but it's super frustrating especially since I only need them for the styles and not the stats. There isn't even a feat attached to them. Can't there be a alternate way to get JUST the styles. Perhaps sell it on the quarks vendor for 500 quarks or a new vendor all together for 400 source marks or something?
    • Like x 6
  2. Brit Loyal Player

    Put the OP Items (or their respective components) onto the freaking vendors. I am happy to drop 100+ Source Marks just to buy a single collection piece, or paying Source Marks or Episode Currency to buy crafting components for those respective OP items.

    That's the way it should have been all along anyways. RNG drops are dumb. Let us farm. I'd gladly pay 100 Episode each for Monitor Energy, Canary Cries, and Spark of Skylands.
    • Like x 6
  3. SekretVillain Loyal Player

    What I dont get is there is a freaking RARE style vendor that is always overlooked for these situations. I dont get it.
    • Like x 5
  4. Kanniu Well-Known Player

    Hmmm I completely forgot that vendor even existed. When was the last time they updated that vendor?
    • Like x 1
  5. SekretVillain Loyal Player

    2016 or something like that, and it wasnt a big update. Reason I say that is it has nothing I was able to buy. Which theres several op item styles they can throw on there for 80-100 Mark's a pop.
    • Like x 5
  6. Al Uzza Active Player

    I completely agree. Some of the old OP styles are so cool, but I seem to never be able to get it. I think that after an episode become old, they should add the op item styles to the rare style vendor. They don’t even have to grant the feat just the style.
    • Like x 3
  7. spikeat Well-Known Player

    Especially the ones that require collection pieces.
  8. willflynne 10000 Post Club


    Thing is, if the RNG drops keep players playing (which is kind of what the devs want us to do for various reasons) then I'm not sure how dumb it really is. Frustrating? No doubt about it. But RNG is a tried and true method of keeping players engaged, so it'd be dumb if they didn't utilize it.
    • Like x 1
  9. Kanniu Well-Known Player

    I get that but I've run it so MANY times and still haven't gotten it drop. An alternate way would be nice since it's not like anyone's really going to need the OP item itself. I just want the style. There isn't even a feat attached to it plus it's been years so an alternate way to get it for us "unlucky" players would be nice.
  10. HurricaneErrl Dedicated Player

    How many years later and STILL running Prime every week for that stupid style. It is ridiculous

    I definitely agree the older styles that were RNG drops should be added to a vendor or something. The collection ones though, at least are obtainable by other means so I don't really see as much of a need for those being added to a vendor
    • Like x 1
  11. Brit Loyal Player



    I personally do not believe that.

    I remember playing the early days of Everquest when pioneering MMOs out of the old text based MUDD era. Early Everquest, all equipment was RNG drop.

    Even the early days of the more mainstream World of Warcraft, all equipment was RNG drop.

    Then they started to implement the badge progression system. And you know what? It has been popularized and spread to the majority of MMOs now. Players largely seem to recognize it as a superior system. Developers largely seem to realize that it attracts and retains more players having a grind rather than having an RNG shuffle. DCUO was built from day 1 with a Badge system for the purchase of tier gear in place, with the concept of tier gear being better than the dropped gear from the beginning (with the tiny exceptions of when Runes of the Norsemen was released, and then the OP items). A fundamental part of the DCUO design acknowledges that grinding things through badges is the preferred way to obtain gear and will lend better results with the playerbase.

    To convert it into math for you:

    If we assume that a rare item were to have, let's say, a 1% drop rate. The average player will have to run roughly 50 times in order to get the item. Some will get it on run #1. Some will not get it by run #250. It's entirely random. But statistically, the average player should expect about 50 runs.

    In contrast, if you make something just cost badges. The content that drops that item would normally give 4 badges. If you set a badge price-tag on that item of 200 badges, then players will still be expected to do the 50 runs. It will be a roughly similar lifespan for the content for players chasing the item.

    Where the two plans diverge though comes from randomness versus consistency. The player who does get the random drop on Run #1, or #10, or #45, no longer has to continue running the content when progression is tied to RNG. Once they get it, they are done. And conversely, the player who runs 60, 75, 100 times and doesn't get the item may eventually give up working for it. There is no guarantee that when Player A gets his on trip #1, Player B will actually be willing to run it 99 times to balance out the 49 trips that Player A doesn't take. And since mathematically 1% of all players actively running the content will lose all incentive to continue running the content at the completion of each lootlock, the population is constantly diminishing, making it harder and harder for players to get those groups, with no guarantee that they ever get the item before the rest of the playerbase simply moves on.

    Compare that to the far more successful badge strategy. By allowing progression gear to be purchased through badges, instead of farmed through RNG, every single run retains value until you exhaust the vendor. DCUO has very successfully approached this. They release a suit of gear, a second suit of the Elite gear, weapons and accessories, but then they also have two waves each Episode where they release additional Style pieces and Materials and Auras and whatnots, with feats attached, so that even players who used replay badges to claim all their gear right out the gate still have a reason to return. As long as there is progression purchases tied to those badges, then every single run retains value. And as long as the runs retain value, players will keep running it.

    The fact that this thread exists showcases the subsection of the population who failed to get OP styles through the RNG means, often years ago, and still cannot obtain them through the poor RNG odds. Yet fire up your random queue for those older raids, or start advertising in /LFG, and see exactly how small the section of the population is that is interested in running them. The tendancy is that, over time, players are not willing to keep on running old content ad nauseum while chasing some absurdly rare, basically unobtainable RNG drop. Instead... they give up and move on.

    And that right there is why the RNG system is inferior to the badge system. It fails to motivate players significantly to run the content past it's shelf life. And it also fails the "lucky" players by giving them the rare drop too quickly, killing their chase for rewards and leaving them meandering around with nothing to work towards. It is a failure in both regards. Which is probably why DCUO itself employs such a robust Badge/Gear Purchase system.

    Placing the OP items or their components directly on the vendor allows the development team to set whatever price they feel is appropriate. Theoretically, they could price the components so that they totaled so high that, after purchasing your gear you would still have to run the lootlocks even past the release of the next Episode, so players obtain the OP item, but not until the next Episode is already out, where it's still a statistical upgrade. That means that motivated players have two episodes worth of content to run for lootlocks, instead of just one. That means that the players have more to do. This keeps them playing longer. But it makes those rare items always looked at as obtainable, instead of encouraging players to give up on them and look at them as impossible.

    DCUO recognizes that the badge system is better, that's why it uses the badge system for our gear. Older MMOs have transitioned to badges because it's more successful; not the other way around. DCUO just needs to embrace what they are already doing and provide more avenues to utilize the highly successful badge system.

    OP item components onto the Episode vendors.
    RNG styles onto the Vendor 00 and Vendor 22 style vendors.
    Quarks vendor to sell RNG Time Capsule styles.

    That ability to be able to guarantee that you get your item after X number of runs will motivate players far more than some stupidly low drop rate for an RNG item ever will.
    • Like x 1
  12. willflynne 10000 Post Club


    It may not be a matter of belief, though. When you've got multiple players here in the forums talking about still playing old content years later in search of a particular drop and when I take my own experiences in dealing with RNG (both here and in SWG) into account, there's something to be said for how effective RNG is at keeping players playing. And that's just what we can see. The data the devs can mine from the game itself about player runs in certain content could go a long way towards bolstering the viewpoint that RNG is a solid method of keeping players engaged. And if that info is solid, they may have no real incentive to get rid of it.

    And yes, I know, there are a LOT of "ifs" in those last couple of sentences. I won't deny that. :D

    I know from my own experiences that if I'm chasing a certain drop from some piece of content and I get it, the likelihood of me running that content again plummets and it's not limited to MMOs. My swimming excursions in the new Animal Crossing game have decreased dramatically once I got the last DIY recipe I needed that you can get from grabbing sea creatures. Also, I won't deny that what you spelled out has merit (I snipped it because that was a LOT of text, not because I disagree or disregard what you said) as I took advantage of the opportunity the Rare Style vendor provided to get styles that I normally wouldn't have had a chance to get.

    But whether it's in this game or something like Animal Crossing, RNG gets used because RNG works. As nice as it is to have a vendor you can go to, the thrill of the chase (even a virtual one) can and will keep a player engaged in a game.
  13. Brit Loyal Player



    I just don't see it. There are handfuls of players who are still seeking those old rare drops, but based on the massively reduced number of player running old content, compared to the huge amount of population running the content that is Content Relevency for them granting Marks and allowing vendor purchases, the vendor method seems to motivate players a lot more. But, like we both said, there is no way to know the exact metrics, so that's not a point worth arguing.

    I'll agree with you 100% that players who get the thing they are looking for generally stop running content. However, with RNG, you can lose those players who get "lucky" on earlier tries by having them stop upon completion as well, meaning that they don't even run as many times as they would have if they were farming badges for a vendor. And at a certain point, people do eventually just give up when they don't get it for long enough.

    From everything I've seen though, in the way of keeping players engaged in the game, players seem far more motivated to run content for relevant marks than they do to run content for absurdly rare RNG.

    Perhaps the best way to look at it would be this:

    If you wanted to buy a new car, how would you get the money? Some people might decide they want to play the lottery to get that money, because the RNG might give it to them. Most people are probably going to get a job, because they can grind it out; put in the appropriate amount of time and work, and be guaranteed to get the rewards.

    People will be way more willing to grind than they will to roll the dice. Grinding will make the players play more than RNG will. As players are completing everything they need from the Aethyr vendors, they are quitting running the World Bosses. Motherbox's impossible drop rate is not enough to sufficiently motivate many of them. However, if Motherbox was added to the Aethyr Vendor for the max 999 Aethyr, I think we both know that there are tons of players who would do another 15 hours of Bounty cycles in order to farm the Aethyr for it. People will run more stuff for grinding than they will for RNG. So if the goal is about motivating people to play, then vendor purchases are the thing that motivates people more.
  14. SekretVillain Loyal Player

    I dont get why allowing people to get just the styles of old OP items is a bad thing, maybe it's not. Any developer care to give feedback?
    • Like x 2
  15. Kanniu Well-Known Player

    Yeah would love a response to see if this is possible.
    I've just decided to stop trying to get the OP Drops until an alternate method of getting them is added
    • Like x 1
  16. SekretVillain Loyal Player

    I've deleted the last 4 or 5 from my inventory because of how much luck it takes to get everything or of course being legendary to buy everything off brokers.
  17. SekretVillain Loyal Player

    What annoys me is, premium people have access to the DLC, but its clear these op items are directed more towards being legendary to obtain them before they are useless.
  18. Ghost27Xog Well-Known Player

    Be nice if these OP Style items only(no stats) would be in the Quarks Vending Machine. Just put the items in there if the style is at least 2 years out from the current End game DLC.
    Devs could also make these items 2-5 k a piece and non tradable of course. Might boost some Time Capsule sells a little more.. Who knows?