Dear devs & community - restructured progression proposal (including elite)

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by Proxystar, Dec 9, 2018.

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  1. Proxystar #Perception

    introduction

    I thought it would be useful to make this a new thread, i had been thinking of new ways to structure the progression model to hopefully do a better job of appeasing all types of players, allowing reasonable access to rewards while creating a structure that also restricts but adequtely rewards failure (edit: i should say appropriately encourages the attempt despite failure) but motivates, encourages and rewards success.

    Too often players argue about the subjective difficulty of content and this difference in opinion differs because of opposing views surrounding an entitlement to reward coming up against the equal entitlement to a challenge along with this is also a desire for recognition of ones achievement through an in game distinction.

    Balanced with this is the developers need to monetize a grind and the necessity to the players that a grind exist because players need to be engaged.

    In order for there to be a truly challenging elite environment some of the rewards need to be filtered in order to prevent a sense of player entitlement derailing the difficulty level, while also preserving the most inportant rewards to those of actual achievement and success.

    My proposal is therefore as follows;

    A new Batman DLC launches

    event content


    This remains the same as is entry cr is 258, all players beneath are scaled up, rewards can remain as is.

    normal content - the primary grind

    Entry requirement is cr258, difficulty remains pretty similar to now. Players are rewarded marks to buy vendor gear. When they have bought all vendor gear and accessories they will reach cr268

    the additional grind - elite content

    You cannot enter until cr268, you have to gear up first.

    This is the extra grind and the difficulty is increased to the point where players are expected to have become adept at the normal versions and have geared up.

    There are 2 raids and 5 bosses like normal

    The enhanced version of the style is placed on the vendor it is just a style and not a piece of gear - this enhanced style basically becomes a participation reward and is monetized.

    When you beat any boss in elite you are rewarded renown, when you reach the applicable level just like you do now, you can buy a style piece until complete.

    This approach rewards players to try to play elite while also meaningfully rewarding effort and allowing barbie players to get what they want but also forcing them to actually at least beat some elite content to deserve the reward.

    The elite gear itself will drop from the bosses themselves but not as RNG.

    Raid 1
    Boss#1 - option waist or boots
    Boss#2 - option hands or shoulders
    Boss#3 - option back or head

    Raid 2
    Boss#1 - legs
    Boss#2 - chest

    This then rewards players for completion of the raids not partial completion, creates a distinction elite players want, which is to be 'better'. The rewards for completion are better stats.

    In addition to this there would be three feats
    25pt - completing style
    25 pt - completing raid 1
    25pt - completing raid 2

    All feats come with titles.

    Obviously all the prices have to reflect the length of the DLC window.

    The best normal gear remains in the vendor
    The best style becomes a grind and effort reward
    The best gear in the game becomes an achievement reward.

    conclusion

    This structure requires people to level up before elite meaning that the elite content can be set at a level of difficulty it deserves and targets the correct audience, it encourages participation despite failure and rewards success.

    There are also plenty of ways for this to be monetized. The speed at which people reach elite will obviously come down to replays used but at the end of the day that's personal discretion and if people want to be world first then hey thanks for supporting the game ;)

    Otherwise i believe this structure would be far healthier for the game. Happy to hear what the community and even the developers think ;)
    • Like x 9
  2. Light Bender92 Well-Known Player

    I actually kinda like this idea. My only problem would be if they make the elite drops ridiculously unlikely to drop n so we were forced to spam. But if each piece consistently dropped (once you had enough renown for said piece though) then I'd be down for it. I'd actually be okay with just working towards that vendor style as I don't really do elite for the cool gear but for the challenge, but I know that wouldn't get a lot of players to keep it alive (look at SM lol). If they can find a way to make elite challenging without just "more adds, more health, more damage" and implemented this, I honestly don't think I'd have a problem with it.
    • Like x 2
  3. Brit Loyal Player

    I would strongly disagree with the idea you propose that Elites need to require the full suit of normal gear.

    Elites are now and should always be about flawless execution of mechanics, and NOT about simply out-gearing them. By design, every Elite has almost identical entry requirements, and can be succeeded by players in the minimum gear IF AND ONLY IF they perfectly perform the mechanics. And that is by design.

    Nobody wants to grind the exact same raid twice as long, to earn two of the exact same suit.

    Players interested in running the Elites essentially run the Normals just until they get the mechanics down well enough to do Elites, and then they do Elites from that point onward.

    They are designed for two separate target audiences. One group of players who want the more casual, forgiving gameplay of Normals, and another who enjoys, rather than being frustrated by, the challenging elements of Elites. Making it mandatory that both types of players must participate in both types of content in order to continue with progression will only serve to alienate the playerbase.

    "Normal" players will be frustrated when they are forced into Elite Content that they find "too hard". When they do not play at the level of execution required for Elites to be successful, they will be frustrated by the groups that criticize them, and by the continued failures, until ultimately they stop trying. And when the next Episode drops and they're still 10CR behind, they will be doubly annoyed that, after successfully completing everything, they get demoted down to the Event status all over again and have to waste their time gearing up with Attuneables when previously completing the Normals was enough to feel as though they had reached the 'Endgame'.

    In contrast, the "Elite" players will be bored to tears when they are forced to grind a full suit of teir gear out of Normals before being allowed to even start the Elites. And if that doesn't bore them into the point of giving up, then when they finally reach the Elites, they face a brand new frustration: hundreds of players who do not have the skills to run Elites, who are pushed into the Elite bracket with them because it became mandatory for progression instead of optional. Soon, only League runs will be successful, and anything built in LFG will be basically guaranteed to contain a majority of players who wouldn't normally ever even bother with Elites, but who are now forced to. This too frustrates the Elite players, until they get sick of carrying the weaker players, or being held back by somebody else's failures, and ultimately just decide to quit trying.

    Trying to force Normals and Elites to both be mandatory, instead of being parallel roads, forces two very different styles of gameplay with appeal to different types of players to both become mandatory. It would be about as welcomed as making a 10CR gap for raiders that was only possible to bridge exclusively by doing PvP; it's just a different style of gameplay that those same raiders are not necessarily interested in.

    What you are proposing would make every raider have to experience a cycle of Easy-Hard-Easy-Hard, when in reality the players either want Easy OR Hard, but not to be forced into the other.

    I appreciate the suggestion, but it is a terrible idea that is pretty much the opposite of what Elites were designed to do.
    • Like x 4
  4. Proxystar #Perception

    Nah my idea has the intention of making the gear drop guranteed .

    This would mean players are rewarded instantly upon completion.

    Technically a player could be geared in two runs of raid 1 and 1 run off raid 2.

    But if the difficulty is set right they're not necessarily going to be completed instantly and the fact that you only need to beat it a few times allows for more room to make it a real challenge without needing to make it a spam

    Of course the renown element remains intact to encourage people to keep running the elite even if they were to be good enough to finish it quickly.
    • Like x 3
  5. Proxystar #Perception

    The elite raid difficulty is set at a level of difficulty with vendor gear in mind, you're not over gearing for elite, you're gearing up for elite.

    I would assert you're incorrect elite players don't care about gearing up, they care about there being a purpose and a goal to that gearing up.

    They used to gear up to run sm for that same purpose. If the status quo remains now elite content will remain trivialized because theres no need to even gear.

    The best way to get people to gear up is to make them gear up. If you're not wanting to gear up then why are you even playing?

    Also my model isn't forcing anyone into elite at all the elite content is clearly in addition to normal

    If you don't want to run elite you simply don't run elite and you stop when you've completed normal just as you do now, nothing changes.

    If you're after just cosmetics hobble your way to renown just like you do now.

    If you're after the best gear well then gear up and actually overcome the challenge and beat the content.
    • Like x 2
  6. Zneeak Devoted Player

    Now we're talking. ;) Interesting thread.

    EDIT: My bad, read the thread a little to fast for my own good. Interesting concept overall.
    • Like x 1
  7. Light Bender92 Well-Known Player

    I'm going to break down my criticisms of this comment by paragraph. I understand where you're coming from but I really don't think you thought out your response and just let emotion fuel it.

    1. You're right, elite content should not be simply about out gearing mechanics, which is exactly why you wouldn't be able to enter until max cr. If everyone is max cr then you CANT out gear it and it becomes solely based on skill. It makes it easy to see who can't beat it because of gear vs who can't beat it because they're just bad unlike now where any time criticism is thrown at elite it's just said that "oh well your cr is higher and you have more sp!" lol.
    2. You're assuming it'd be twice as long. But why would it? The only reason it takes this long now is because devs expect you to do either elite OR reg (that's why they even implemented the 50% cost reduction once you get elite gear in case you WANT to get that extra style feat. No one is expecting anyone to run anything twice. Just half the time it takes to get reg gear and boom done. This'll incentivise those that only run reg to do elite since they'll have so much more time left, and it'll give players that want a good challenge to still still have something real to work towards. Going back to my previous statement, if ppl are elitists they were gunna get both sets anyways, and if ppl hate elite then they weren't going to get the elite set anyways. This also eliminates the time complaint.
    3. Another assumption. I actually usually just jump straight into elite tbh. Especially with the Atlantis dlc. Besides, refer to the second to last sentence of number 2 if you need to see why this point doesn't matter.
    4. Again this doesn't force anyone to do anything. I see your main gripe however is that the entry CR is max cr, but what if it isnt max cr but sumthn like 263-264. If you farm half the set, why not just get the whole thing? That's my point here. Having elite being the same cr requirement is what's causing us to have all these debates as it is. I don't think it should be entry cr period. But if you make it half of the vendor gear/max cr then people might as well just get the full set anyways. And again if they're elitists they're most likely getting the set ANYWAYS, especially since in this model elite gear drops in the raid so they won't have to focus on getting marks for their gear...
    5. Normal players won't feel excluded because normal players don't even do elite. As far as them being demoted to event status, I think that's a bit of an exaggeration lol and by this logic every dlc we're technically "demoted" because we become scrubs compared to the new elite raids.
    6. Elitists won't be bored because they know that they'll be working towards their progression. Only way we'd be bored is if we got to elite and it was lackluster. Otherwise no one would really care. (Assuming that the reg content didn't take years to farm marks like I suggested lol, which would make sense) also you keep saying reg players would be forced, which they wouldn't. And let's say they were, it would kinda be a good thing as more players would get better and not be "regular" players.
    7. No it doesn't
    8. No it won't
    9. It isn't a terrible idea, your understanding of it is just pretty terrible tbh.
    • Like x 2
  8. willflynne 10000 Post Club


    The thing is, sometimes you don't need the best gear to overcome challenges. My own experiences in playing the game over the years have taught me that.

    If a player wishes to take a shot at Elite content at an entry level CR or being what some would consider undergeared and test their ability, they should have that chance. Some of the best content runs I've had have been where I take on a fight that, by most accounts, I shouldn't be able to win. Taking on Sub-Avatars at a CR where I can't even get loot for my efforts is my go-to example, but basically running any content where I'm at entry level CR (and usually well below recommended CR) have provided me a lot of fun runs.

    There's also a part of me that looks at "you have to get all the gear before running the Elite stuff" as being pretty similar to the "you must be THIS tall to ride the ride" mentality that's been exhibited by some players since the start of the game, and that's always going to leave a bad taste in my mouth.
  9. Proxystar #Perception

    What if the difficulty of the content was at such a level that even being at max vendor is undergeared.

    The first boss you beat has to be through hard work and coordination.

    This rewards you with a piece of gear, beat that boss again and you get another piece, making that boss easier and preparing you for next and so on, slowly building up to the completion of raid 2.

    There is of course the option that you're such a beast you defy the odds and beat in just vendor gear this maintaining your status quo.
    • Like x 2
  10. Brit Loyal Player

    You're completely neglecting the fact that you leave a 10CR differential between the Normal and the Elites, and that is not reconciled without completing the Elites. This means, when the Episode after this launches, we are faced with one of two options.

    Either the entry level requires that you have completed the Elites, which forces all the "Normal" level players down into the Event level teir of content because they no longer meet the minimum threshold.

    OR

    The entry level only requires you have the gear from completing the Normals, in which case the players who have the gear advantage of having completed the Elites essentially have already skipped over the entire next suit of gear. Using the current numbers to demonstrate: Owlman: 195 -> Mera: 205 -> Cyborg: 215 -> Ninth Tride: 225.

    In the current model, the Elite gear is only better by a very small margin. Enoughso that the Elite players do have an improvement to chase, but with Ninth Tride as the example, Normal suit is 225 and Elite suit is 227.

    Proposing a massive 10CR spread for the gear means that, if the entry level for the next Episode is based on just the Normal level, then anyone who has this new, substantially better Elite suit has already eliminated basically the entire grind for the next chapter. Based on the model you propose, it would look like this:

    Owlman: 195 -> Elite Owlman: 205 = Mera: 205 -> Elite Mera: 215 = Cyborg: 215 -> Elite Cyborg: 225 = Ninth Tride: 225 -> Elite Ninth Tride: 235 = Next Normal Suit.

    Or that new Elite suit becomes the mandatory minimum threshold to get in, which means players are forced into that cycle of Easy-Hard-Easy-Hard, where grinding both the Normals and the Elites becomes mandatory for progression. In that case, progression looks like this.

    Ninth Tride: 225 -> Elite Ninth Tride: 235 -> Next Normal Suit: 245 -> Next Elite Suit: 255.

    With that model, Elites are no longer optional, they become a mandatory portion of progression.

    So either you block all non-Elite players from progression, or you eliminate all the grind by allowing the Elite players to earn their Elite suit in just a couple of runs, and that suit to be able to skip them over their entire next teir, jumping them straight to the next Elites, basically making there be almost ZERO grind for Elites. It's literally a case of completing the raid once and then being done with all gearing until the next Episode.

    That doesn't add artificial longevity to the game; it would actually eliminate it and making gearing up substantially faster.

    The current system, where the Elite gear is only a small, relatively insignificant upgrade over the Normal gear, is the only way to keep the Elites fully optional, while not having the Elites obsolete content before it is even created. And with the current system, the current carrot-chasers who want to eek out every tiny stat upgrade they can get have one or two incredibly rare or grind-heavy OP item per Episode, which keeps them grinding away at those Elites long after they've finished the renown.

    I think you're not giving Daybreak enough credit. The current system is well thought-out and allows everyone to progress without shutting down a huge portion of the playerbase. Your proposal either blocks all non-Elite players, or causes all Elite players to skip all gear grind treadmill, neither or which would be good for the game.
    • Like x 2
  11. Proxystar #Perception

    No apologies i just didn't clarify that aspect of the matter in my proposal.

    The elite gear provides no significant increase in cr if at all.

    It can either be the same item level with additional stats or it can be 1 or 2
    Item levels above normal this would create a differential in cr between elite and normal of perhaps 1-2cr points.

    Creating a small visible distinction between players. Im not sure why you've read into my idea meaning elite gear would be significantly changed from where it currently is.

    In terms of the op item that can remain as is, it might provide a player with a small shortcut to an appropriate cr in DLCs and allow them to maybe enter content a little earlier than others but having the stats would alleviate the need to exclude them from elite prior to gearing up.

    Also i think you're reading too much into the math, they're arbitrary numbers to present the proposal in a manner understood not a set in stone fact.

    Also at what point are you going to accept some progression should be through achievement.

    As discussed earlier in another thread too many people get free progression.

    The argument is therefore does that progression outweigh the effort. In my proposal you can gain the style over time with ease however if you want the ultimate progression then you need to actually complete the content.

    There has to be a balance.

    Im sure some might be equally upset the style is separate in my system, but that's the compromise, you can't have it both.
    • Like x 3
  12. Trexlight Devoted Player

    The idea is the basic Progression of an MMO. But DCUO has broken from that mold and is basically a Casual MMO. Instead of working upwards through Progression, we are handed everything and we choose how to proceed especially in a limited timeframe. The idea isnt bad because again, its the basic form of Progression MMOs follow. But with Replay Badges, the rush to complete content, and even design of content (albeit it is fun btw, not knocking it), there wont be a change nor should there be unless we set the time tables different on how Content is delivered and its longevity which being a Free to Play MMO, its likely to change.
    • Like x 3
  13. Shark Dental Devoted Player


    At first I was concerned that this would cause the devs to attempt to spread out DLCs even more than currently (3-6 months), which I believe would be a fatal mistake. However, on closer consideration, I think that gating elite at 10 CR above normal could be good, because it would require gearing up, and the elite raids would basically overlap with new DLC launches somewhat, essentially giving elite players a mixture of elite and normal content to run at the same time. It could also give the devs time to streamline elite addiontally prior to launch.

    Basically, using your example, I can see it as:

    Downfall of the Bat - January 1st

    Solo
    Duo
    Alert
    Raid 1 Normal (I wish we got 2 alerts, one with an elite mode, honestly, but whatever is good for profits, lol)
    Raid 2 Normal

    Downfall of the Bat - Elite Launch - January 15th or 21st

    Raid 1 Elite
    Raid 2 Elite

    Now, people who have replayed will be striving for elite immediately.

    People not replaying will start playing elite around March 1st.

    New DLC - The Starro Strikes Back - April 1st

    The cycle repeats itself, but this time, elite players can continue to go after the rewards from Batman DLC elite, while gearing up for Starro at the same time.


    Potential issues: You mention no RNG with gear drops (maybe you address this later in the thread, I still have to read the rest), but that only means a single successful run to obtain the gear reward. Unless you're referring to groups needing on loot, which I don't think would go over well. Or are you talking about scaling drop gear with a higher CR or something?
    • Like x 1
  14. Shark Dental Devoted Player

    I like separating the elite (glowy) style, because we both know that's what most players are interested in. That way players interested in a challenge can get the challenge and have better stats and CR, while the players who want a glowy style can get it without having to set foot in elite if not desired. They would have to take advantage of double currency weekends and/or replay to be able to afford the style and the vendor gear within the life of the DLC, however.

    Perhaps the style would only unlock once the full vendor style feat unlocks.
    • Like x 1
  15. Knarlydude Loyal Player

    With the recent Daybreak restructuring I highly doubt anything like this will come about.

    Here are a few reasons why it will not work.

    1.The stats on gear are too close to gate the elite instances to justify putting a gate there.

    2. For something like this to work DCUO would have to bring back CR differential and that's a no go in most players books.

    3. It's too late in the game to keep on on switching the leveling format.

    4. Last but not least.......Stats are suppose to matter not gear or CR.

    edit* People already complain about the grind and this would add on top of the existing grind.
    • Like x 2
  16. Proxystar #Perception

    Why does CR differential have to come back, please explain your reasoning.

    Stats do matter under the system, the stats derived from the vendor give you the necessary stats to complete the elite content, the stats from the elite gear provide you with the necessary stats to assist you with the elite content should you continue to struggle with the elite content, while also increasing your performance in preceding content.
    • Like x 1
  17. Proxystar #Perception

    No, the players would have to still set foot in elite, they just wouldn't have to "complete the raids".

    i.e. if people are going to insist on farming just some bosses, they're only going to get some of the pieces of elite gear and eventually the style pieces.

    This is to encourage people to "attempt elite" and not just farm out normal and somehow expect the rewards, even now you still have to "complete" some elite to get the shiny style.

    With this structure I personally think it allows for the raids to be structured in a manner that meets a higher expectation of difficulty because if anyone comes back with the assertion that they expect to get the shiny style and they shouldn't have to complete the instance, you just say "well you can just spend way more money than you need too and fail at last boss over and over".

    What I'm effectively trying to do is preserve a method in which the developers can monetize the elite style, which is something I personally think is heavily going on, while maintaining a degree of monetizing the elite gear itself but creating an environment where the challenge can be made difficult irrespective and just tell people to toughen up if they fail.
    • Like x 3
  18. lukelucky Devoted Player

    When new content beat u down making u learn the mechanics and or gearing up some the game was beyond great

    Imo ELITE should be scaled hard enough it stays relevant for at least 2 dlcs. If the next dlcs drops and the previous elite is a cake walk devs failed imo. Day 1 elite drops and beat....... nothing I can type wont off and so fill in the blanks as negative as u desire
  19. Iconic Simulation YouTuber

    If I get what youre trying to get across that in itself would fall flat. If its relevant for 2 dlcs than the gear from it would be worthless because by the time people would get it...the next 2 sets of elite gear would be better. And if that truely is the case then the devs wouldnt be able to justify making an elite suit for each dlc. That would equal one less style and less people running elite. Thus killing off elite. Pls consider the domino effect that this would create before suggesting an outlandish notion such as this. Honestly I feel the devs just need to put in more involving mechanics that cannot be mitigated with healing or extreme dmg output. So many groups either double or triple heal to avoid death or dps stack.
  20. lordexecution365 Loyal Player

    I just about agree with this the only part is there still needs to be RNG as far as drops go.

    Players still need to run it a few times there shouldn't be a rush or players shouldn't feel, forced to spam replays as if that makes sense.

    If it took 1 or to times to aquire the gear it only leaves feats and not much else for the masses that couldn't actually beat the elite version.

    Granted it goes against the grain and will be very upsetting to players that it will take time to actually get what they want but the grind should last the life of the DLC or it would cause more harm to the entitlement crowd or I'll informed.

    I like the suggestion and it should be implemented as well as restoring gear checks in content before you get to the first boss, like the first set of adds, especially in elite raids.
    • Like x 1
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