Microtransactions for random rewards

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by nawanda, Nov 16, 2017.

  1. krytine Loyal Player

    Ok I have to chime in. We all know a large majority of parents now a days do not parent. Myself I was able to get a credit card at 16 when my parent signed for it I paid the bill and all. But then you have psn card gift cards and multiple ways to get around buying with a credit card these days. And most parents have no clue what thier kids are doing how they do it or with whom. That is in part why cyber bullies are able to do as much as they can. And believe it or not cyber bully laws do still apply to this game and when something bad enough happens it will be brought into the main stream news and then more will happen. In an ideal world there is no need for government regulations but in this day in age with how most ppl over indulge and talk about how they are the super start or rock star everything is me me me government has to get involved to supposedly protect the ignorate ppl from themselves and those that would exploit them. As in your filters again lets face it parents want to try and be friends or dont care neither way works. And yes the system with tc needs to get an overhaul what exactly dont now dont care all I can say my wallet is still closed to dc
    • Like x 4
  2. bigbadron alt Dedicated Player

    I don't think anybody is suggesting more government regulation - the issue seems to be that the gaming industry, through the use of "gambling boxes" (which are accessible to minors), may be in danger of running afoul of the regulations which already exist in a great many countries. As I said earlier, some countries are already looking into this.
    • Like x 4
  3. SuperBell Loyal Player

    No, just wrong.
    • Like x 2
  4. Vagrant Committed Player

    My thoughts is just that, man the balls on Daybreak to introduce a new "Time-capsule" aka Loot box DURING the huge media storm of Battlefront 2 and ESPECIALLY with loot boxes coming under investigation for being borderline gambling schemes that can cause companies like DAYBREAK to get fined for not having a gambling license and actually be banned in countries that do not support their practices.
    • Like x 4
  5. ThePhilosophy Loyal Player

    Exactly. Anyone against some standard government regulation has clearly never heard of lead....or asbestos.... Or the countless dead from unsafe work conditions
    • Like x 2
  6. nawanda Loyal Player

    Your post is absurd.

    You think publishing odds or protecting vulnerable people from spending beyond their means would "punish everyone else".

    You also think that the odds on time capsules are 100% clear.

    There's absolutely no point trying to have a sensible discussion with someone who would argue white is black or black is white, as you clearly would.

    Ignored.
    • Like x 3
  7. light FX Steadfast Player

    U have the right to your opinion just like i or anyone else has the right to ours. I personally never said anything about getting the government involved. I also have never said anything about how others spend their money. Like u said its their choice. I do think feeding $ into system doesnt help things but its your money.

    The system itself is what i take issue with when it affects all players because its linked to progression. And clearly im not alone on this. Now i know u didnt quote me and say i said any of that stuff. But u put out a general statement to people who oppose time capsules. I wont ever support them and ive stated why.

    And my opinion or your opinion isnt wrong or right. Its simply opinion. What is kinda odd tho is whenever this topic comes up on here some of us who dislike TCs give our opinions and some others who have the opposing opinion seem to get very angry. I cant figure out why. Actually i take that back cause im pretty sure i know why ;) The insults that happen because someone gives an opinion is absurd.

    But im not angry about time capsules. Like i said already, i find the system undesirable. And ill continue to speak up about it unless i break some forum guidelines. Obviously people speaking up resulted in changes to another game that was mentioned in the OP. I doubt TCs will change or not exist in dcuo but ya never know.
  8. Crimson Crossfyre Well-Known Player

    One problem with all of the complaints being made here. There is a system in the game to earn stabilizers for free. That one mechanism legally destroys any case you are attempting to make. The lack of patience on the part of the consumer is not the fault of Daybreak.

    Besides that, engage in hypocrisy much? You claim you want to "protect the children" yet shoot down any idea of allowing volunteer community members to be given the role of chat moderators with the power to mute gold bots AND offensive players. In almost every single area in the game there are things in /shout that are disgusting and written in a manner to get around the profanity filters yet there is no control over these foul mouthed players. Yet the possibility that a rogue moderator might prevent you from posting nonsense in chat for a set time period has you frightened? Where is the desire to protect the children there?

    Caveat Emptor
    • Like x 3
  9. nawanda Loyal Player

    Hi. I'm the OP.

    I'm certainly not saying that selling stabilizers is currently illegal. So your point about the free stabilizer every 2.5 days negating it being illegal is moot. But I'll address it anyway. Giving a vulnerable person or a problem gambler/a minor/an adult with learning difficulties a free bet three times a week does not appease gambling regulators, where existing regulation applies.

    Regarding chat bots and in game moderators for chat - I haven't expressed any view on this, so I am guessing this point is aimed at someone else. But again, I'll address it. If you want, I can start another thread about other areas where vulnerable people and children might benefit from regulatory control. I don't know why I should need to to satisfy someone that my views on the ethics of microtransactions are sincere, but what the hey.
    • Like x 5
  10. Proxystar #Perception

    Oh boy this has to be one of the best deflective straw-man arguments I've ever seen...

    You've taken the most emotive element of the OP's argument and skewed it in a different direction not even remotely related to the topic at hand in a false attempt to make the OP look like a hypocrite.

    The reality is the only common elements within your comparison are the "victims" but the topics are completely different.

    Well done good sir, unfortunately however, anyone with half an once of common sense can easily see through your shenanigans.
    • Like x 7
  11. Crimson Crossfyre Well-Known Player



    Starting with the second comment first as it is easily dismissed. Arguments have been made in the thread that the TC microtransactions must be regulated "for the children." I was originally calling out that argument for being hypocritical but I will call it what it is, a fallacious appeal to emotion. It lends no credence to the argument. Your mention of vulnerable populations is also an appeal to emotion rather than a logical presentations facts.

    As to the first point, the purchase of Time Capsules is in no way gambling because the purchaser always receives something in return for the purchase. The rare items that everyone wants are like a prizes in the Cracker Jack box or the magic symbol under the bottle cap. It is something above and beyond what one expects in the Time Capsule. The fact that one can get these Time Capsules for free is the same as a fast food restaurant giving instructions on how to receive free game pieces during a promotion.

    Daybreak Games is part of a larger corporation with lawyers paid a great deal of money to ensure that everything in the game meets the letter of the law in the jurisdictions where the game is played. If you have a Juris Doctor and know more about the law, please include your credentials in the argument. Even then, lecturing us does nothing as we can only be subjected to your opinions rather than being able to act on it or even care about your opinion.
    • Like x 2
  12. nawanda Loyal Player

    Wow, you finish that post by applying that I am lecturing people? After opening your post by saying that my points are "easily dismissed". How about you get off your high horse?

    For the final time, I am not alleging that anything DBG are doing is illegal. Go back and find a quote where I have stated or implied that, if it will assist you in dropping the high-handed tone of your posts. I don't need to be legally qualified to hold a view that something should be regulated - that's a fallacious argument on your part. I will damn well post any view I hold without having to justify my entitlement to hold such a view to you or any other poster.

    I have no idea what country you are from, but as another poster has stated in this thread, in the UK, there is a lot of attention right now on safeguarding and other areas of protecting minors and vulnerable people. I don't care if you think pointing this out is some form of emotional manipulation - you're completely missing the point.

    I would really, sincerely appreciate it if you would answer just one question for me, and it is this: if countries protect minors and vulnerable people from gambling in casinos, betting shops and from participating in lotteries (which they do), how is it "falacious" to you to imagine that there are people such as myself who would like to see such protections extended to forms of gambling within mobile, console or PC games? That's my question. Answer it, or don't answer it - that's your choice. Stop misinterpreting my point and address it please.
    • Like x 2
  13. Crimson Crossfyre Well-Known Player


    1. England choosing to be a nanny state with cradle to grave control and manipulation of its population is not DBG's problem.
    2. Purchasing the Time Capsules is not gambling. The purchaser is told exactly what the capsule contains and there is no chance of getting nothing. A better analogy would be Pokémon or Magic:The Gathering Collectible Game Cards. Those CCGs specifically target children and there is no guarantee of getting the rarest or most valuable cards in the pack but one still gets cards so it is considered a fair exchange and NOT gambling of any sort.
    3. Protections for minors who play games already exist. In America, we call them "Responsible Parents."
    4. Your idea of protection is my idea of overregulation, overreach of legal authority, and interference with free trade.

    To sum it up, there is nothing in the Time Capsule mechanism that qualifies as gambling in the United States so no regulations or protections are needed.
    • Like x 3
  14. nawanda Loyal Player

    I appreciate your answer to my question, although you won't be surprised to know that I disagree.

    I work with people from disadvantaged groups for a living.

    For me, it's not about state interference in peoples' day to day lives, it's about ensuring that people are not being exploited by large companies.

    I genuinely don't see how having gaming companies do things like publish the odds of certain random drops would spoil anyone else's fun or constitute excessive state interference, but then, your country thinks that universal free health care is a socialist concept and that it's fine for people to have assault rifles under their bed, so I can well see why people in the US might differ. For me, the first duty of the state is to protect people and problem gambling wrecks lives.
    • Like x 5
  15. BipolarDiva Loyal Player

    Firstly. Well done.

    Second. You are sooooo getting banned.

    Thirdly. Don't give up. Taking a moral stand is never easy.
    • Like x 1
  16. light FX Steadfast Player

    Regarding #3 what happens if the parents arent responsible? Or if a child has no parents or loses his parents early in life? Or has parents that are very rarely around or pay little attention to their child? I dont want the government involved in this but parents are not doing a great job of protecting kids from anything. Some parents do tho but many dont.

    The responsibility should be on the parents to teach and protect their children from anything and everything until they see fit to expose it to em. But in reality that isnt what happens. We all know this too. Not when u can play almost any online video game that has a rating for teenagers on up and find kids on there under 10 who are saying some very outlandish stuff. Or parents who are getting their 10 year olds a cell phone. Or how this past summer i came across some young kids, like 10-13, who were throwing rocks at a dog that had a leg injury and couldnt move. Yep parents in america are doing a bang up job when it comes to responsibility.

    Lastly earning stabilizers for free ingame does not change what time capsules are. The free keys are actually meaningless when it comes to "gambling." If i go to a casino i know exactly what i can and cannot get by choosing to spend my money. Whether u win something or not does not change the definition of gambling. The definition is below.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=definition of gambling&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS771US771&oq=definition of gambling&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.10101j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 U can even see the definition under this^ one from dictionary.com that says "to play at any game of chance for money or other stakes."

    This^ talks about chance and risk. Not about winning or losing or getting anything for free. Also there are forms of gambling where the person who is taking the chance gets something of very little value. This again does not change the definition of gambling which is the act of taking the risk which is left up to chance ;) The definition of this is pretty clear.
    • Like x 3
  17. BipolarDiva Loyal Player

    That vitriol though...
    • Like x 1
  18. Proxystar #Perception

    1. The true words of one who over supports Capitalism to the point where it becomes detrimental to the well being of society.

    There is a time and a place for regulation and even the words "nanny state" are often thrown out there in an attempt to instigate an emotive response by acting like people are being over-protected against their will, like they've lost their "freedom of choice".

    It's complete nonsense, regulation occurs in order to protect society from people who wish to exploit others for gain through deceitful tactics. But by all means I'm sure you'll attempt to show me that Capitalism is the saving grace and oasis of modern society.

    There is a balance to be had between regulation and a completely free market.

    2. That's because you're limiting your definition of "gamble" to a more traditional 'casino' type sense. Let's explore the word.

    [IMG]

    The word as you can see, mentions exactly what you're saying "to play a game of chance for money" now you'll notice the word doesn't solely focus on loss, it mentions it but doesn't mention it in any sort of exclusive sense.

    You'll see it also goes as far as saying "to take a chance on; venture; risk:..."

    It is clear to anyone with even low level English skills that "loot boxes" within video games do meet the requirements of what would be defined as "gambling" within the English language.

    Now what I'll be clear about here is, what meets the English definition of language doesn't necessarily meet the definition of what is considered gambling within statue legislations.

    Gambling legislation has been around long before "loot boxes" were even created or even anticipated. This is the nature of law making, you see the same things within Copyright laws, created in and for a world that never anticipated the internet and is slowly coming to grips with having to catch up.

    Regulation comes in to play not only to "protect certain vulnerable individuals" but also to ensure "integrity" and "fairness" this is why government departments regulate and audit lottery schemes to ensure, even though the odds are horrid, that the game is in fact run in a fair and reasonable manner without "fraud".

    3. I mean this with all due respect but parents cannot control everything and anything at every given point in time, I understand what you're saying but I'm telling you, be more realistic.

    Young people don't have the same financial sense or the same decision making skills as an adult, other vulnerable adults are compromised in other ways also.

    I'll give you an example, I give a child $20 for their birthday, they go down to the store and buy a pre-paid visa or load up a virtual visa card, neither of which are regulated with age restrictions (yay capitalism!) and the child then goes and loads up DBC and buys time capsules. From there we all know the odds of the capsules and how satisfied that child is going to feel after they get "nothing meaningful" out of it.

    I anticipate your answer will be, don't give them cash, give them something else, parental failure etc. etc. while meanwhile turning a complete and utter blind eye to whether or not something could have been done to actually improve the environment in which the child is entering in to in the first place. i.e. regulating and creating transparency within the loot box market itself.

    You can't just pass blame on to parents when failings occur all through society.

    4. See answer 1.
    • Like x 7
  19. BipolarDiva Loyal Player

    Well stated.
  20. Crimson Crossfyre Well-Known Player



    Actually, I am basing my definition of gambling on law, not the dictionary. Laws require strict definitions of all terms when enacted and those definitions cannot be as broad as a dictionary.

    Using your definition, Wizards of the Coast and The Pokémon Game Company would be guilty of illicit gambling and retailers like Walmart and Target would be shut down in most states for promoting gambling in jurisdictions where it is not permitted for selling CCG Booster Packs.

    If one wanted to go far enough back, Topps should have been shut down for illegal gambling as children were taking chances with each pack having "nothing of value" if the pack contained cards already owned by the child.

    The real issue here is not protection of children, discouraging the development of gambling habits, or worry over disadvantaged populations being at risk from Time Capsules. This is really about a group of adults being discontented with the outcome of not having rare items fall out of every capsule they open with additional supportive posts from players who despise Time Capsules for various reasons.

    As stated by the OP, this player is on a crusade to have Time Capsules removed from DCUO because that player does not like them. If DBG posted the odds, the OP would complain that the RNG is rigged. If the code for the RNG was posted, the OP would find a new reason to attack Time Capsules. All of this would be encouraged by those who thing DBG is running some sort of MMO Charity for their own personal amusement in which all players must play by the rules of the aforementioned players.
    • Like x 1