Sorry it took so long. Woke up late, and had a few ideas to test for a couple of powers to update their reads since I couldn't re-create the mental and sorc parses I had listed (forgot loadouts since I never write them down). This has every power with a few different parses outside of Rage and Electric which I'm leaving to Crappy. Note: If my cr is 179, it's from taking off my face to lower my cr without losing might to help get rid of the power cost problem some of these powers have. Original vid (celestial and different combos are at the end. There were 1-2 that didn't even make 30k so I left them out xD: ^ Took 3 pushing 4 hours to render, and then another 2 hours to upload to youtube. Didn't feel like re-doing it in Sony Vegas, so I made short update videos for newer rotations I found today* Mental Melee Update Vid Sorcery Melee Update Vid Ice Melee Update Vid 3 TARGETS: EARTH - 40-42K non-pet *slight power issue* HL - 37-38K range, 40k melee *severe power issue restricting damage* QUANTUM - 39-40.5K *meh, slight power issue* ELEC - 40K SORC - 36-40K range, 42-44 melee* non-pet ATOMIC - 43-44K *medium to severe power issue depending on bot use for supercharge generator clipping* CELESTIAL - 40-44K *slight to severe power issue depending on combo used* GADGETS - 38-42K range 44-45 melee RAGE - *PENDING UPDATE* MENTAL - 40-42k melee *2 repair bots*, 35-38 range *medium to severe power problem at range* ICE - 40-44k melee, 35-38 range NATURE - 33-35k range and melee 1 TARGET: EARTH - 19-23K non-pet HL - 19-20K SORC - 19-22K ranged pet, 19-20 non-pet 20-21.5k melee QUANTUM - 21-24k ATOMIC - 20-22.5K CELESTIAL - 20-24k ELEC - 19K GADGETS - 24-25k melee RAGE - *PENDING UPDATE* MENTAL - 18-20k range ICE - 19-20 range 21-22k melee NATURE - 18-21k melee If I find anything newer, I'll update it. Comments: - Celestial already said - HL mentioned in video - Nature has no burst, the only way I got Nature past 30 to hit 35 was with iconic powers for burst. - Earth And Sorc seem good without a pet so I'm happy - If I use an iconic power (outside of ice if i remember right), it's because that power set didn't have an equivalent to it. Several comparisons for 3s, 200 power cost abilities end up being won by the iconic powers. Either they were taken for damage or utility reasons for the most part. By utility I mean like power cost for say earth dps. Not sure if I showed it but I changed Rumblecrush/Tectonic out for Gag Glove. It has less power cost than Tec while still being decent and compared to Rumblecrush, it's a burst compared to the dot which is better for crit damage difference. Cones need to be worked out however. Sometimes when I use it, if I miss a target only 2 instead of 3 targets will have the extra ticks from Debris Field on them which is annoying. - Excluding bot clipping, crappy was normally 500-1k underneath my reads if that's an issue. - Any changes to power cost to compensate for the powers that is accompanied by damage changes, is going to ruin this somewhat balance we have outside of the few outliers. Example being HL is 37-38 ranged and 40 for melee. If you nerf the damage to change the power cost, it'll have to be severe enough for me to run the rotations done at the start for me to still be able to parse at 40+ for melee. If not, the rotations I"m allowed access to won't change and my damage just decreased, same for ranged combos. And any rotations that don't include clipping will take a hit for no reason for the most part.
Thanks for the info. Don't worry about how long it takes you to post this stuff. The fact that you take the time to do so is awesome and we thank you for it. This week we have a lot going on since Starro launched. We will check this out. If anyone has any loadouts/rotations that they are using that are different from HoiiowDreamz let us know.
Seconded! Thank you very much for your hard work! This kind of information is incredibly helpful! ^_^ b
Good job HoiiowDreamz. Feedback One thing I want to note about the Mental/Gadgets rotations is that they rely on Handblasters Fist Slam. Fist Slam has the shortest input sequence for any melee group damage attack and is a good clipping candidate because of its animation time. It also provides reasonable power back. For burst-heavy powersets like Gadgets, constant Fist Slam clipping allows you to make maximum use of your burst powers since your supplemental DoT damage is rather lacking. You basically end up doing a weapon hold-clip every second or faster. Fist Slam is great for parsing, but it is a horribly unfun way to play the game. The constant tap-hold clip is also a really good way to destroy a new gaming mouse. However for something is that burst-heavy like Gadgets, it is the way to go. If you don't want to use Fist Slam, you can use a lower-parsing melee Weapon Mastery rotation.
Glad you guys are watching, We put tons of time into testing things and its nice to see you guys taking the info in. I would love to get some set standards for where you guys would like the powers to be at for when we get to fine tuning them after all the powers are on test. 1 target melee: ?? 1 target range: ?? 3 targets melee: ?? 3 targets range: ?? My numbers for 3 targets range would be 40k. I say that cause some powers exceed 40k but the power cost is pretty high so after it got brought down with the way you guys are doing things we prob would be sitting around the 40k mark anyway. Then for 1 target range i'd say 20kish is the sweet spot and in actuality most of the time if a power is doing 40k on 3 its gonna do roughly half that on single so hitting that 40k on 3 would help single target numbers to but then we still have to account for some single target only abilities. As for melee damage I'd say about a 4-6k dps increase is acceptable. You still want people to be rewarded for melee damage but you don't want it to be over the top. It would also be great if you could give everyone on test like 260 skill points so we can have some complete stat specs so everyone is on the same level and so we can spec'ing fully into at least one stat tree and have one WM combo available to use. #Naturelivesmatter
Seems like the baseline testing ground is with 2 Controller power sustain and on a 30 seconds time frame, why is that? I mean, 30 seconds actually makes sense.. but balancing everything around 2 controllers pushing out power? It's like we've already decided every raid must have that setup.. Also thank you Kuro for this, it's clear this took some time and effort.
All that i posted above really depends on if weapons get adjusted cause then things might change but as of right now thats my opinion on things. Theres a lot of weapons that can use a bump up in damage. Other then about 4 weapon combos none of the others will reach these numbers. I would really like to see a lot of weapons brought up to par so more combos could be viable. Handblasters fist slam, Martial arts-uppercut WM (single target), Dual weild-flurry shot WM (single target) and handblasters solar flame are all weapons that you can reach these numbers with depending on what power set your using. I feel like i might be missing one...? If i am post it and let us know. Other then those the rest need a good buff. WM combos like dual weild-explosive shot and even handblasters-explosive shot that used to and should be good really kill your dps at the moment
It's mostly because sparring targets don't return power currently on test, which means with a might spec, you might barely get 10-15 seconds of a rotation without having to take a soder to get power back which skews your numbers again. Any power that has a dot wind up like say sorcery with soul well, you wouldn't even be able to tell its consistent damage because you'd be out of power. I have 2 trolls botted with 189 troll gear, vit oly mods and gen, and if i remember right, max sp in vit as well and as you can see, some rotations still slowly go through power and hl can barely last for 10s for some of the more old school melee rotations like ram spam and claw final ram whip etc. if I remember right, you can't even do ram snaptrap fan if you're clipping fan with ram instead of doing a rifle tap after fan currently without eventually getting low on power. You can test without controllers, it's just that it's going to be vastly different than a raid setting where you do have power and are allowed other rotations. As an additional side note, if you change to might/pow and put sp in power to try to run some of these rotations for say 15-20 seconds, your parse readings go down by like 40% I think. You won't even break 13-15 I think it was for single target and I forgot what it was three targets. The escalating might from your sp heavily influences your damage. For raid situations, you're better off running 2-3 trolls and doing higher damage rotations than to have 1 troll with a group of people spec'd for might/pow or having might powers struggling with cheap rotations that don't actually get to use the might they have effectively. I don't even find a purpose in doing might/pow currently since I tested straight prec specs. For single target, I can land around the same area as might spec using dw tap hold with less power consumption, and melee (at least currently with op ma uppercut wm) I can get slightly higher. Why go might power for solos duos and alerts, when I can just go prec spec and not lose damage. To put things in perspective for single target, a 200/300 power cost ability will do like 10-12/13k damage non crit. My dw with max prec does 5k on a tap range, and then each of the following bow hits during the flurry hits for another 5k each for like 25k total. MA uppercut hits for 30k non crit, 60k+ on crits. Even for melee on 3 targets, the rifle wm (one of the few other good combos I saw) was outpars'ing some of the early reads I had for might spec. I can land 35-38 on 3 targets with rifle wm compared to prob <33 maybe even <30 for might pow spec. At this point, I'd actually recommend people to just keep their prec armories on live, and just grind a second set for might spec for when they do have power.
This is a list of the WM dps for the different weapons I got. This was 189 with prec oly mods, prec gen, and only 60sp put inside of crits. No sp in prec. No prec neck to bias to start of the reads, no blast adaptor in my weapon socket. Just sitting on single target and hitting the prec buff off cooldown and you get this. WEAPONS-FULL CRIT 17920 PREC DW -EXPLOSIVE SHOT - 10.145 -FLURRY SHOT - 12.951 -LAUNCHING UPPERCUT - 11.431 -GROUND POUND - 12.828 BOW -MAGNUM ROUND - 10.885-11 *LATE MISTAKE* -FULL AUTO - 9.156 -SPINNING PUNCH - 11.659 -SMOKEBOMB - 12.743 BRAWLING -SHURIKEN STORM- 10.230 -ENHANCE SHURIKEN - 11.932-12.198 -HOME RUN - 11.683 -DOOM SPIN- 10.271 DUAL PISTOLS -METEOR BLAST - 8.7-8.8 -SOLAR FLAME - UNTESTABLE -ULTRA FURRY - 7.079 -DUAL FLURRY- 11.333 HANDBLASTERS -ARROW FLING - 9.862 -EXPLOSIVE SHOT - 10.401 -HAYMAKER - 11.511 -GROUND POUND - 11.641 MARTIAL ARTS -LUNGE ALONE - 9.400 - SMOKEBOMB ALONE - 10.5-11.2 -METEOR BLAST - 9.456 -UPPERCUT 15.777 CRITS FOR 40-50K -SWEEP SHOT - 10.515 -LOFT SHOT -11.487 ONE HANDED - FLIPSLASH ALONE - 10.539 - PULSE BEAM - 12.948 - SOLAR FLAME - 9.968 - DUAL FLURRY - 11.935 -STUNNING SWIPE - 12.640 RIFLE -SLIP SHOT - UNTESTABLE -FULL AUTO - UNTESTABLE -AIR LAUNCH - 11.845 -FLURRY - 13.358 SHIELD -MAGNUM ROUND - 9321 -LIFTING STRIKE - 11.404 -BIG SCOOP - 11.002 -HOME RUN- 11.197 STAFF -MORTAR - 9.365 -FLIP BURST - 10.056 -AIR LAUNCH - 11.066 -CLEAVE - 11.955 TWO HANDED - MEGA SMASH - 8.352 -ARROW STORM - 9.870 -FLURRY SHOT - 12.823 -SPINNING PUNCH - 12.192 -KNEE LAUNCH - 10.703 DW Flurry Shot, Ground Pound, Bow Smokebomb, Brawling Enhance Shuriken, MA uppercut, 1h pulse beam dual flurry and stunning swipe, rifle flurry, staff cleave, 2h flurry and spinning punch are all decent weapon masteries that can give you competitive damage. Keynote: these were done with 0sp in prec. With MA hitting for 15k+, that led to the joke me and Crappy had where we said a weapon was hitting harder than nature. Without a form of cheesing for Nature, for single target it was like 12-13k before. You could be nature doing a full, triple dot ranged loadout with 250sp full oly mods and be losing to a person with 80sp just using MA and a weapon buff. I'll go back and test might/pow and prec with sp and have updated numbers for those so you can see.
Oh no, I understand that completely.. I'm just asking why 2 trollers instead of 1? I still don't think most raids would opt for 2 trollers if 1 can do it - and evidently 1 is enough for end-game raids as of this moment. The raids we run Dps weren't power specced as far as I know, they just did their own thing and when they run out - they run out. It was still a breeze with a solo troller, and even with a couple players not doing their role properly at all. I would really appreciate a Dev giving their input.. like do they want us to balance around 2 trollers? I've been min-maxing for way less power consumption than you have.. I mean, I already run into an optimal 42-45k ranged hybrid for gadgets for a 2 troller setup but I thought it would be absurd counting on it. I just want to know if this is something everyone wants - balancing Dps around 2 Controllers' power output, rather than 1.
Because the best loadouts that will you let you parse for 40k+ can't be maintained with 1 troll. If you're going to float in the 30s because you can't do a full rotation, you might as well go prec and not use power at all like that. I'll make a short video of ice showing the damage difference from 1 troll to 2 trolls.
I understand where you're coming from, but you need to remember this game is very Dps focused for some reason.. It seems like to me most people just want to Dps, and if we trail back to 2-3 Controllers being a requirement for performance, it's going to hurt the game's populace again. (I would personally love seeing more support roles.. this Burn Fest on live has got to stop..) Maybe the Devs want to take a look at it and adjust power consumption so we can reliably make 1 Controller work for optimal Dps output. Or if they don't - I would appreciate them making it clear, so I can do as you have and test while relying on atleast 2 Controllers. Thanks again Kuro.
Funny thing is that I"m leaning toward 3 lol Most of these I can get away with taking a soder every blue moon with 2 trolls. However, in an actual raid, as a dps, I can't guarantee both troll dumps like I can in a 3 man group. I'll be competing with healers, other dps's, and ever so often the tank. The only way I could guarantee power like how I have currently is prob to run 3. If I wanted to HL dps comp someone, I'd run 4 because we actually needed it (video of me, crappy, madrabbit, and gesenai testing claw final ram whip). One of the things that people were pushing for was to make dump strength stronger because right now I'm getting like 15-1600 dumps from my vit/pow troll and my power costs are 5-7k. Editing and uploading a video of the dips I'm seeing, every power dipped severely besides ice, and I'd make a stretch to sorc and nature may not dip that hard either. Everything else was 60-80% of it's normal dps when I ran out of power and some of them couldn't even last to 20-30s before I had to take a soder.
I don't know if it's better to tackle the power issue from its consumption source or from the Troller's power out, but I do think it would be a good idea to address it this way or the other. The massive majority of players in the game are Dps, if this forces a new meta of 2-3 trollers on them to enjoy their role.. we'll be looking at a lot of upset customers.
@spord @Shin-O-B What is your opinion on bot clipping? That is where you use a mainframe/repair bot to clip a power, jump cancel the summons, and go into your next power. It has been in the game for a few years, but fell by the wayside after Advanced Mechanics became popular. I can see bot clipping becoming popular again and was wondering if that was viewed as a "legit" clipping method. Feedback As a counterpoint to all of the Might testing, I tried out a couple of all Precision Gadgets builds today. Here are my stats: http://i.imgur.com/sCeNhuo.png Note that includes the power dump buff, but not the self-weapon power buff . Group Demonstration Note This build requires two controllers and has a bit of a build-up time in the first parse. Assuming your hand doesn't cramp up from the constant Fist Slam, you can maintain a steady 42k-44k/s. I had a couple of 10s parses that went as high as 50k/s. In my opinion, this is horrible to play for more than 5 minutes. Single Target Note This build requires a single controller, though two were present for testing. Assuming you have a bit of luck with your crits, you can maintain a steady 23k-25k/s.
Thanks for posting this! It's tremendously helpful for everyone here on the Systems Team . More Controllers will make individual DPS stronger, but group DPS suffers heavily as you continue to add more Controllers. 1 Controller = 5 DPS (baseline) 2 Controllers = 4 DPS (need a 25% increase per DPS player to match 5 DPS) 3 Controllers = 3 DPS (need a 33% increase per DPS player to match 4 DPS, or a 67% increase per DPS to match 5 DPS) Because of this, we're not worried that 3+ Controllers will become the new meta If you have time, we'd also like to also see some testing with Supercharges. In real gameplay situations (which is what we're trying to balance for, not just Target Dummy parses), most players will bring a Supercharge, so they won't be using 6-button rotations without a SC. Obviously, for a SC loadout, you're going to need a longer parse to get meaningful numbers. Also, I'd like to emphasize this point: we're not aiming for perfect parity on Target Dummy parses. We're aiming for a competitive environment in real gameplay situations. For example, on Target Dummies, abilities with DoTs or Fields or Melee components will generally parse higher than those without them, but in real gameplay situations, we don't expect players to achieve 100% uptime for those types of abilities - hence the higher parsing damage. Target Dummies are still very useful for finding bugs or illustrating large discrepancies between powers (it looks like Nature could use some help), but they're not the gold standard for DPS balance. Thanks again for this and keep up the great testing and feedback!
So based on the numbers we're getting: 2 Controllers = 4 DPS, require a 25% damage increase per DPS player to match a Solo Troller situation. Kuro's numbers aswell as my own reflect a 30-40% increase in practice. 3 Controllers = 3 DPS will actually require a 67% increase per DPS player, and so even if our loadouts are able to push up to 50% increase with the extra power somehow, we're still falling short. So as of right now the optimal build really is 2 Controllers in your raid group - no more no less. I'll do my best to record actual gameplay of T8 raids this weekend, I'll also make sure to include a SC. Thank you!
To add onto that, with 2-3 trolls, you'd also have less stress on the healer in addition to the damage discrepancy. Also means more cc and easier multiple debuffs, and if you have earth or sorc and the trolls are superspeed, speed drains also factor into dps. In addition to this debate, as penryn showed, he was doing 23-25 as prec build gadgets using MA. My dw build for prec is basically the same area as my might specs for certain powers as well. If we were talking about maximizing damage for a raid group, you'd ideally go 1 troll 5 dps 1 heal 1 tank with 5 prec-based dps's since they will match might spec but also take 1-2 less trolls. Prec specs have been tying with/beating might specs for single target while might specs win on 3 targets when they do have 2 trolls. - With 1 troll, currently no point in Might or Might/Pow specs. Might specs can't maintain rotations that would be fun and put out damage that compete with prec. Might/Pow specs could potentially be fun assuming you don't have a pet nerfing the regen but your damage is low still, regardless of what you do. -With 2 trolls, currently no point in Might/Pow, allows for most might rotations that compete with/beat prec specs, easier stress on healer. - With 3 trolls, allows for all besides maybe atomic/hl rotations that beat prec spec, probably no stress on healer.
You're forgetting about the extra controller damage. I'll just use 1C and 1D to represent the damage from 1 Controller and 1 Dps 1 controller, 5 dps 1C + 5D 2 controllers, 4 dps 2C + 4D 3 controllers, 3 dps 3C + 3D 4D * 1.25 = 5D 3D * 1.67 = 5D However, you have 2C and 3C compared to 1C to make that difference less. So it should be: 1C + 5D = 2C + 4D = 3C + 3D I'll just go on an average for all of the powers and say a 30% damage increase because I was landing between 60-and 80% of my reg maintained damage when I dipped from power drain. 1C + (5*.7)D = 2C + 4D = 3C + 3D 1C + 3.5D = 2C + 4D = 3C + 3D Even on the high side, it'll be 4D, maybe 4.5D in realistic situations if you have supply drops and supers out. But then that trade becomes 1C + 4.5D compared to 2C + 4D. You have half a dps worth of extra damage from the dps role, but you have an extra controller doing damage. I'm thinking that's going to equal out, especially when you consider group utility from the healer power management from solo healing as well as supercharge benefits for dps and group emergencies.
