I don't usually make threads

This just isn't true, PvP at the start of the game was far more bare bones (no mods is just one example). It's very easy to further strip features out of PvP (give everyone even skill points, take out the need for gear just to name two). Combat also isn't entirely counter reliant outside of legends, due to the insane damage currently as well as HL DPS having the safe damage it does, being too reliant on counters actually ends up hindering you.

Except healers and trolls are still vital to a successful team, and healers are still comparable to DPS in terms of strength if they also have the trolls to back them up in a team setting. PvP currently is not geared towards DPS vs DPS, it was meant to bring balance between roles for 4s/5s (which in comparison to previous seasons at the beginning was successful). It's just they completely blew the solid base they had at the start of the season by throwing AMs into the mix and throwing damage on base weapon attacks completely out of wack.

Group shielding?.....

First to counter or first to crit has been the essence of PvP for over a year now. Not that you'd agree but I digress.

In 1s, 2s, 4s, 5s? There's a different playstyle to each mode and there is no one playstyle beats all for all of the game modes in arenas.

Too true.

You fail to appreciate that a team is made up of individuals so it applies to all of the above. Different group strategies doesn't discount ones ability to "first to counter/crit". Unless both groups are huddled within the same area, there's more 1v1, 2v2 action going on instead of 4-5v4-5.

Even without mods, counter role debuffs, confidence boosts, and coordinated cleanses still gave PvP a type of complexity that's almost totally lacking now.

And I can tell you it doesn't, as the most powerful and strongest way of DPSing doesn't even rely on counters currently. One counter doesn't mean anything in arenas unless you have poor healers on your team who are slow to react to focus fire, so your state of "first to counter" isn't correct in any area.

You also had less weapon combos, less powers, less weapons in general due to no shield as well as no immunity. Exclusion of the RPS system alone isn't enough to make old PvP more complicated, not even close.

Didn't say it was "more" complicated. That's a bit too subjective. But we have certainly lost something significant.

I don't fully agree but I see where you're coming from. It's not DPS vs DPS oriented in the fact that having roles still gives you an advantage. But it is DPS oriented in that roles are so nerfed in strength that they're not all that fun to play.

Also, I would agree that arenas were extremely counter-oriented before the rise of AMs. Legends is pretty counter-oriented though. It's both good and bad. It encourages skill in "mind games" to outwit your opponent into giving up a counter. But it is also very punishing and discourages you from playing with people who give up too many counters (noobs, basically). It's the same as not wanting to play at a Blackjack table with inexperienced players--they make it more likely for the dealer to win.

Couldn't have said it better, TY.

Can you elaborate or am I incorrect because you disagree?

Oh, and I agree I thought it was weird that they nerfed shields to only mitigate 25% of incoming damage but left immunity's shield alone.

Instead of negating 100% of incoming damage capped at 20% of your health it should have been 25% of incoming damage capped at 20% health if they were to be consistent.

You're incorrect because the first person to counter isn't in an automatic position to win, neither is the first person to land a crit unless it's with a high end dual flurry or something like 7xtap hold with shield (however if you're getting hit with that in a 1v1, you deserve to lose considering they can be blocked on reaction and being block broken is always a better alternative as long as you have some way of breaking out of the CC).

It isn't about you being incorrect because you disagree, it's simply not a correct statement.

True, the shield changes were always something that confused me ever since I first saw them. Same with certain DoTs being hit (though AM DoTs certainly needed it).

I think immunity and rage's mechanic should have been made into percentage mitigation with shields left alone. If they were worried about excessive survivability, they could have simply adjusted the calculations so that the overall damage the shields could take were lowered.

Because you said so, got it.

See this is why PvP discussions get NOWHERE, people can't think for themselves without being "corrected".

Are you just outright deciding not to look at the reasons he listed as to why he felt your statement was wrong just to try and pick a fight?

Well you see most normal people would appreciate the help from a more experienced and skilled player informing them of their mistakes and correcting them, but then people like you pick a fight for no reason even when I've done what you asked and explained why you were wrong when I simply could have dismissed you.

If you want a comparison on how ridiculous you're being, try telling Messi or Ronaldo that the way they play football isn't correct just because "they say so" and see the reaction you get.

The reasons PvP discussions don't get anywhere is because of players like YOU. People who spread misinformation, then when more experienced players attempt to correct them they're far too stubborn to accept the advice and continue providing mixed messages to the developers while trying to start an argument and derailing every constructive debate or discussion

They need to pvp to figure out how to balance PVP properly. I'm definitely not talking about a casual set of pvp neither(dev vs dev).

What I'd give to get a 2v2 with Mepps and Spytle, especially if Spytle picked Superman.

Are you kidding? Spytle and Drenz. Spytle needs to use Superman because heat vision is so good apparently and Drenz needs to use Saint Walker because he's comparable to Shazam.

Yes... and then we'd go the ol' Luthor and Catwoman. Luthor because of Superman, Catwoman because her burst will take out Saint so fast he'll be in respawn longer than actually fighting.