Who should be held accountable?

I personally blame DC for the player community as it stand. Everything that once separate each player gear,mods, and their sp have completely been throw out the window. I have ask this question a lot how in the h e double hockey sticks does a person get to end game content and still doesn't understand what to do: a tank who can't tank a troll who u have to contantlly tell pot debuff, dps 115 cr and 58 sp. Healers I do belive don't to many fall in this category as they take wat they or doing seriously.

There is not really anything that the devs can do to remedy this. They make it to end-game because no one is making them learn just carrying them thru content. The only thing that the devs have done that I can point at as a direct cause of this is being able to reach end-game without having to do 4 or 8 player content. But I do understand that not everyone wants to do raids so you cant really blame that either. The only fix really is we as a community need to hold the player responsible to their own skill but the issue with that is the glaring imbalances in power sets so you cant really do that either.

You choose who you run with, whos fault is it that you don't run with decent players?

Have to agree with this. We all know that there are terrible players as well as great players (and everything in between). Players get tired of the "build your own group" suggestion but it's an option that we all have. If a player doesn't want to take the time to form a group and would rather try their luck on PUG, you cannot blame the devs or the community for the outcome

People are responsible for their own actions. The player base is responsible for the state of the community, not DC

Built a group took 2hrs, 1st hour impatient people left and the last hour filling the empty spots. It was easier before GU 47 where many people did not quit DC, most of my league moved on to a new game after gu 47 that's 46 elitists gone from DC. So pugging is the best option when so many roles are rare since DC is now More DPS than any other role because of advance mechanics. I really enjoy watching the tanks feeling high and mighty demanding resets when people are just missing tanks for raids. lol (best part of content relevancy game update)

So I'm the blame wen putting a group together for Totd n the tank can't tank the essence or the troll want keep pot up r even a debuff wen the essence is down. OK understood I'm to blame

No, man. You're not to blame. There are all sorts of players here in the game. You have options, though, which is the only thing that the devs can do anything about. They can't control the way people play. They have given us tools to try to ease the situations that you may come across when playing with others, but to hold them accountable for the mishaps is a bit unfair. The tank can't tank the Essence? Kick him/her and search for a better one. Troll is not giving out POT? Kick him and search for a new one. Can it be a pain in the a $ $? Of course, it's part of the game. But I just don't see how the way players play the game is any fault of the development team.

Did you exclude tanks from lower level alerts and raids when they could have been learning the role coming up? Were they excluded in favor of saving a few minutes when one or two DPS were more than enough to complete the instance? If so then yes, you are partly to blame as are all of us who did this. You can't expect a player who got only very limited play time in role to be able to tank the most difficult content. The players are responsible for the make up of the community. This is an MMO that has a community with a shocking lack of understanding when it comes to being part of a team.

No I have never exclude no role from content, I remember the struggle of leveling up n been kicked n favor of higher cr. I have n still to teach ppl how to tank n load outs, just last week took a 109 tank thru totd explain everything he needed to do one of the shortest runs ever, why he new base mechanic of tank n took my advice

There is no easy answer to the OP's question and no one group that can be held to blame for some of the situations that exist. The dev's, in my opinion, did a horrible job in the way of providing a tutorial set up that gives a new player at least a basic understanding of the game. We spend at best maybe 8 minutes(?) or less in Brainiac's ship and the biggest thing we get an actual training session on is three methods used to actually defeat certain mob types. There is no training on how to be a good healer or a good Troller because we aren't even acknowledge by the game as being one of those roles until level TEN. 1/3 of the way to the highest level attainable in game before any of us is little more than a DPS that may or may not be picking powers to support other players. All of the pre thirty content is designed to be solo friendly so aside from the few alerts we have access to, none of which we NEED to complete to make 30 level, players can solo their way all the way to 30 and THEN find themselves thrust into a world filled with 4 and 8 man missions and are expected to KNOW their roles. How often does a controller need to POT or use a power push on a solo mission? (in case your wondering the answer is never .. unless of course the POT is also a really good attack and then they use it constantly) That however does not leave the community itself off the hook. Three years ago when I first started here I was the victim of a few KICKS... most of the time this was a direct result of "my buddy just logged on and I am kicking YOU so he can join us and get the end rewards" [See when you join a 4 or 8 man team WITH a good friend and wind up kicked you have a SPY still inside that can tell you exactly what happened after you wound up outside]

But there were also a few times before I learned the game's techniques and strategies where I wound up on the outside looking in because "he doesn't know what he's doing" OKAY so how about instead of giving me the boot you take 2 minutes and EXPLAIN what I should be doing? And of course the answer to that, in most cases here, is NO WAY... that would mean it would take us 2 minutes longer to complete the mission so I can move on to the next thing I want to accomplish today. It amazes me when I come on these forums and players are moaning that everything is too easy after some nerf and we all need to LEARN the game and then you go on line and most of the teams you see forming are asking for CR well above the minimum for an alert or raid because no one wants to struggle that want to get in, kick butt, and get out with their rewards.

And by NO means are some of the LEAGUES not a part of the problem... Before it was taken away from them how many leagues out there used walk in raids to quickly accelerate new members to HIGHER CR. The only reason being... The people running the league were THAT combat rating and wanted members available to run the missions THEY needed. The end result of this rapid advancement through who knows how many tiers? A large number of HIGH level players out there that are so used to being carried they never learned how to do almost anything except read a map well enough to keep up with the team. Up until THIS latest update (47) the other method was for high level league mates to join lower level ones in doing the lower level's missions and just waltzing through them killing everything that moved with nothing but a few weapon shots. I KNOW for a fact that occurred because the first league I ever belonged to had nights where all they did was low level raids and alerts and expected the high level members to tag along to "HELP" the new members. Once again .. how exactly did this HELP the new player learn anything? All they had to do was walk along behind the CR 100 DPS mowing down mobs in a second and collect their rewards at the end.

Then there is the sentence I highlighted in RED in the quote. The "community" on the whole wants everything fast and easy. Not saying I totally blame them let's face it at times this game can actually become a bit of a drag. Doing the exact same thing over and over and over to TRY and get the "good" armor drops and to grab as many marks as possible to buy good stuff. But there are way too many players in this game that do not want to put any effort into accomplishing anything. You have all seen them. A team forms and gets to the first Boss battle and it struggles, maybe even suffers a team wipe and then POOF with no good bye or anything suddenly your down a member because of the attitude "If I have to actually think and work to get marks in here I am going to leave and find another team" No one wants to take the time is talk amongst the team members and figure out what did we do wrong and how can we fix it? THAT is called team work people.

Outstanding post! You make a lot of sound points. Yes I agree that more of a tutorial for roles while leveling up would be a big help. But as you said they are meant to be solo missions so I am not sure just how it would fit in. Perhaps the devs could add missions at the very beginning of level 30 where the player teams with iconics and must take on his support role in a tutorial. These could be easily tacked on at the end of the leveling process and made mandatory before proceeding to end game content.

As for your points regarding the community I could not agree more with all that you have said.

I don't disagree with your post but I would suggest taking at least a moment to see if the player is coachable before just kicking hem. Sometimes all a player needs is a little help and encouragement. If the player is UNcoachabel then you really have no choice but to kick.

Its both the community and the devs fault. The devs fault for not providing enough mechanics and relying on the one bang too much.
But most importantly the community for all the role exclusion. Its a combination of AM+WM+role exclusion+ people who just got tired of neglect of support roles in this game and went dps.

well said...as usual!

Absolutely. I do believe that every player deserves an opportunity. Kicking someone off an instance should always be the last resort. We are just part of the problem by kicking people without giving them an opportunity, especially if they are unfamiliar with a piece of content. I really do hate having to kick players. Yet sometimes it is a necessary evil.

The devs enable las terribles by nerfing everytime they come crying, they then feel they arent as bad as they are that the content was just too hard.

The general population period being filled with morons means you are going to have alot of bad players in any MMO, when that MMO backs off and dumbs their product down repeatedly those bad players not only stick around but become pillars and voices for the community, there are literally leagues filled with terrible players that consider themselves elite, becasue they can crush gates or whatever else new, super easy, mechanic-less content they throw out.

So it's 50/50.

As a community member, you are responbile for teaching these players. Best of luck.

If the had left the cr scaling as it was originally people would of had to learnt heir role to even get the t2 kahn raid done ad t7. Would have been a pain in the butt at first but everyone would of been better off in the end...and imo had more fun along the way.

That hold icons helping while n ur support role would be brilliant