Work In Progress: What's Next for Arena PvP

Discussion in 'Concluded' started by Tunso, Apr 25, 2014.

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  1. Frankzilla Committed Player

    You have provided your opinion with no physical evidence to back it up only your words which is hearsay not useful in the court of dc. Obviously ppl was having problems with being interrupted hints why these things even exist pvp needed to be made easier that is fact not opinion.

    Now you always saying how ppl are struggling, leads me to believe its yourself who would be struggling without these mods. Just because ppl don't like these mods because they understand how it is messing up pvp doesn't mean they struggle.
  2. Giggles Loyal Player

    @JungleJim

    So you just basically told us all that because you have trouble paying attention to "crowd blocking" in anything above 2v2, and that's the reason you want these removed from PvP? That's not a good reason, that just proves you do t pay attention to what your opponents are doing, which only further proves my point.

    The mechanics you are complaining about, have nothing to do with HT. They have existed since beta. Every weapon has multiple single target combos. Learn your weapon better, and learn when and when not to use certain combos. Not all combos work on all situations, and clearly in 4v4 and up "crowd blocking" is a known tactic by everyone and everyone who PvPs.

    Your argument is extremely flawed and has nothing to do with HT. I'll will repeat this again, your issue is you are not paying attention to your opponents, and only you can cause yourself to get hurt by explosive or deadly block. The only person executing the combos that can be countered by a block, is you. Stop blaming game mechanics for errors on your end. Also, yes I do t have the problems you have. I don't allow myself to get countered by block often. I'm very good at baiting my opponents, and that is another skill people need in PvP. :)
    • Like x 3
  3. Giggles Loyal Player

    I First off, your post is a complete contradiction. Your post contains no explanations or "physical evidence" of anything, just false information and maybe an opinion or two of your own. I on the other hand have given examples which is "physical evidence", if you follow the instructions properly. These are examples that I and others encounter everyday. I have explained in detail how to deal with the mods you and a few others may or may not be having trouble with.

    I'm sorry, it's not my job to create video tutorials to teach anyone how to play the game and properly utilize the combat system in the situations where these mods may or may not be giving others trouble. I even asked a few of my league mates and people who know me well in game to read my examples over, and even they agree with me and understand what it is I'm explaining. I'm sorry people aren't fully understanding what is being said in my examples, but I can't help others anymore than I already have. If I can counter these mods, anyone can do it. It just takes a bit of practice and well timed counter measures.

    I have said countless times, I am fine with whatever the devs decide, good players will still be good players regardless of what changes. My stance is there is obviously a split, from my perspective it seems like a split big enough to entertain an Arena playlist for a few months to see what the community in game actually prefers.

    The best way to conduct this, is to make two identical playlists within the Arena tab, one with and one without HT. Then for the devs to leave it up for about 2-3 months, only rotating maps as they normally do, and ensuring the map selection is always the same for both sections. This would allow them to see what the community as a whole prefers to play, not just the vocal minority both parties consist of here on the forums.

    As Phil said himself, he feels HT is easy to use, and anyone can use it. He just feels the bar is too high to properly counter them. That skill is what determines the winner of matches, so in my eyes HT is working as intended and giving all players something to strive for with all the depth, complexity, and strategy that HT brings to PvP. This is why HT belongs in PvP. :)
    • Like x 5
  4. Lantern Doomblade New Player

    Also would it be possible for all the gear to have the same stats but different socket affinities? For example one gear set with a yellow sockets, one with blue sockets, and one with red sockets.
    • Like x 3
  5. Frankzilla Committed Player

    Sorry but I dont know phil. Um contradiction no my evidence the ht mods themselves read em very well. Now you claim other wise like the tact mods are lying that they are not invulnerable once active. So the burden of proof is on you yet you can not provide any.

    You rant on how its made pvp more complex yet refuse to speak on what its removed from pvp. I said I was done back and forth with you I mean it. Those aren't examples they are hypothetical unrealistic situations where you can stop some one before they do channeled powers and rolls everytime. I wish you were on usps so I can see you stop minigun with the ec mod even thou I know it cant happen.
  6. Starry Hope New Player

    I never said Arenas is playable right now. Actually I feel arenas is very unplayable. I can't remember the last time I even ATTEMPTED arenas due to things not being how I want it. Your reasons for calling it unplayable are your reasons, but I honestly don't agree with your reasons. Arenas is unplayable to me because of the lag, players not showing up majority of the time on the ps3 in anything above 2's, WM hitting so hard, Buff/Debuff cols, and a few other things. I can agree with you on Arenas being a headache but I can't agree with your way of trying to dominate a topic by saying everyone is wrong or "delusional" if they don't agree with you.
  7. Giggles Loyal Player

    You really need to do a better job of reading both my posts and the tactical mods descriptions in game. You clearly do not know what these mods actually say, so here is the description for the Empowered Channeling mod, and the Tumbling master mod. Let's start with Empowered Channeling...

    "Empowered Channeling: Channeled super powers are no longer vulnerable to interrupt, prevent STANDARD control effects, and add 3500 defense and 2000 toughness while active".

    Where did it say someone was invulnerable to all counters? *Hint* It doesn't.

    Now let's go over this description, shall we? No where does it say it makes you invulnerable. It simply stats you are no longer vulnerable to interrupts, which is only one type of counter measure of out the many counter measures available, and that it prevents standard control effects. In case you don't know what a standard control effect is, that's a weapon stun. So clearly, there are many ways to counter someone using this mod, as I have stated many times. I'd also like to point out as well, people can still take damage while using a channeled power and the channeled abilities last for maybe 1-2 seconds, they are not infinite animations that cost no power. Thus, you are wrong, again.

    Now let's take a look at Tumbling Master...

    Tumbling Master: Your dodge roll is no longer vulnerable to interrupt. You may also tap the movement controls to cancel out of your dodge roll into an acrobatic combo."

    Where does this one say someone is invulnerable to all counters? *Hint* It doesn't here, either.

    Again, all this description tells us is that interrupts do not work against someone utilizing a dodge roll and the tumbling master mod together. Nowhere does it mention people are invulnerable to stuns or CCs of ANY kind, so weapon attacks will CC, but not damage someone during the dodge roll. How long is a dodge roll? .5 to 1 second? It's not permanent, and we all have stuns, so there is no excuse for not being able to stop a tumbler, unless of course ones timing is way off. Then it becomes the fault of the player, NOT the game mechanics HT added. Thus, you are wrong, yet again.

    Now that I have proven you wrong again, lets get back to my main point...

    Not all counter measures work in all situations, but there is a counter for everything. Just because one of the many counters available to us against opponents utilizing these mods does not work (in this particular case the interrupt counter not working in these particular situations) does not mean people are invulnerable or other counter measures cannot be utilized successfully. It means you and others need to accept the fact that you need to use a different counter measure that is available to ALL players. That does not mean other counters do not exist. It is not the game mechanics here, it is people who do not fully understand the combat system as well as they claim. The game has evolved passed the plain jane vanilla trinity. While the plane jane trinity works in some situations, it does not work in all situations.

    Home Turf belongs in PvP because it requires people to learn the combat system in depth. HT adds complexity because you never know what your opponent is going to use next, and some counters, as proven above, do not work in all situations. HT forces all of us to stay on our toes and adapt on the fly to certain Tactical mods and HT trinkets. This is the exact definition of complexity. HT also forces us to think up new strategies and adapt those strategies on the fly as well. HT raises the bar for skill and know how in PvP, it should not be removed because a few people may or may not be having trouble with properly timing and executing the proper counter measures. MMOs evolve, not devolve. This is why HT should stay in PvP. HT evolved PvP to the next level, and removing it would only take those lairs of complexity away from PvP and remove all the depth, complexity and strategy that successfully added to our game.

    I also have to point out, you say my examples in previous posts on how to counter these mods are impractical situations, yet you and a few others in here are saying that people you all are facing are "invulnerable" to any counter in these situations. So the fact that I am telling you how to counter these particular situations is most certainly not impractical, because it is happening to you and others constantly according to your posts. Please stop contradicting yourself, and just go back and read our advice, it is very helpful information, I assure you. :)
    • Like x 2
  8. Hero of Justice New Player

    This thread has gotten so nonconstructive it's sad. For heaven's sake, you'd think HT was the be-all, end-all as far as PVP changes are concerned. I really hope this gets resolved soon, because right now all the feedback I've seen for the last 50 pages or so has been painfully limited and one-dimensional. I want to see all of the other aspects/potential changes to PVP discussed.
    • Like x 3
  9. Sara Pezzini New Player

    Looking forward to these changes.
    I think it will be most important for us healers to have as many sp as possible to gain max restoration.
  10. Redscreen5 New Player

    Can't believe I arrived late to this thread. The changes sound sketchy but let me emphasize one thing .....If mods are to be the significant decider in role functionality for future PvP we will witness a decline in support roles.

    Saying this im trying to not be biased when most experienced groups will just run scrimmages, but when you take into consideration PvP as an entity (the growth that must occur) not everyone will have the motive to mod gear. I've known good PvP players across both factions who have been un-moded / slack moding for extended periods. What this will do is cause segmentation in role support because for some reason people will tolerate an un-moded DPS MORE than an un-moded support role i'd go as far as saying this is a fact.

    I had a conversation with someone yesterday about this and the only conclusion we could come to is to put mixed synthetics in but at a lower tier. So while core single mod sockets will remain at 6 maybe have mix synths at a 3 or 4 ? I know some people are against it but like i said this isn't to cater for us, its also to attain newer players into multiple roles. Otherwise what the devs are proposing is unless your 120 SP+ and have the best moded gear, your chance of being a productive support role is severely limited, now considering healers are almost two WM combo's away from being one shotted that's a very worrying proposition.
    • Like x 2
  11. Redscreen5 New Player


    This is the point im getting at in my previous post, there has to be a makeweight.
  12. ChaosInternational New Player

    New direction with the discussion.

    Personally, I enjoyed arenas pre WM. I enjoy the matches that take up nearly or all of the time because those are the matches against players with comparable skills. PvP right now is, again, a crit fest. Everyones survivability took a nose dive and the matches are too short lived to even learn your opponent well enough to combat their strategy.

    I support the changes in part, I just don't trust the devs will be getting around to solving the current problems with the combat system until after they add or remove a layer. It seems utterly silly that they insist on solving the easy problems that have yet to perpetuate and leave long standing issues that are more difficult to rectify. Problems need solved, it's just that simple.

    I still maintain that the role specific stats should be a 100% primary or secondary stat buff and that we should have a singular damage stat for all roles, powers and weapons relegating heavy hits and the dps primary stats to crit mags and %'s. I believe this will ultimately balance roles and envourage players to do more than just dps. As a controller, getting by on cc effects and damage mitigation is a blast being that I've never enjoyed the hard hitting, slash and burn approach. Your role benefits should be enough to see you through a match whether it be some sturdy defenses as a tank or troll or damage negation with healing yourself outright. Doing damage in support stance comes from a tactical application of your power/weapon capacity. That can be said for the dps side as well but a dps can usually count on a crit or two to get them a near kill, support roles have to rely on a few more crits and their ability to manage taking those shots.

    Things like consumables or buff sodas allow players to find an edge on the competition just like HT mods. Removing these just makes it more vanilla. Nobody has an unlimited supply of said consumables or buff sodas, people spend time, money and bits just for crafting purposes. Removing this from half the game sounds ludicrous. Everyone has the ability to obtain these advantages so stop with the QQ about being forced to play a certain way just because your opponent didn't bring a knife to a gun fight. In spite of these advantages, I have lost many matches and never thought twice about whether or not my opponent was using a buff soda or consumable.

    Now, the broken counter mechanics and players who exploit the window of opportunity. Baiting is a good and effective strategy, one I use infrequently. It doesn't seem rational that the person on the other end gets the opportunity even though on my end they missed the window and I have already carried on with something else. Why not favor home court for both sides? That seems more reasonable even if the counters become less likely, I'd hazard they'd be smoother than they are now.

    Anyway, that's my rant for now. Hopefully a green name will appear with some input here soon, it's needed.
    • Like x 3
  13. Certainlogic New Player

    Please nerf the number of wins for Lair feat. For only 25 points, one thousand wins is tarded.

    Lair is the worst PvP map ever. The camera angles suck.

    One thousand wins this terrible map for 25 points.........
  14. Black Raiton New Player

    You get wins each time you win a set. So if you win a full match that's 3 wins added so technically your only winning 333 matches. Even if you lose the match but win 2 sets that counts as two wins. Unless they have changed it since I did it. So I think 2 star feat is fair
  15. Businessman Ultra Well-Known Player

    The problems with WM would be fixed if there was a second PvP content only arena. People say it can't be supported, but it would most likely be frequented mainly by people who currently scrimmage. Add a PvP SP tree so that SP earned solely in PvP can be used to determine what you have to work with. Disable anything earned in PvE, give a stock breakout trinket and soda. Make the regular arenas no holds barred... nothing restricted, nothing limited... you can go all out with anything and everything (aside from PvE gear...). The hardcore/competitive players should be more than happy with this idea and the much larger base of PvP players should too.

    After 60+ pages of pointless arguing over HT, MOVE ON. You have nothing new to offer on the topic. Leave the conversation.
  16. Robot Superpatriot New Player

    Me rikey, my vote goes for yes on tactical mods
  17. Drakonicus New Player

    I have a question Tunso, and i apologize to you and the other players if this goes to much off-topic, if this is the case, i will happily make a new thread.


    A lot of what you talk about, especially in the "The Hard Core Trinity" and "The Group Engine" seen to apply to PVE as well as PVP. With WM, there see to be a change on how much damage the support roles can do. So my question is: Are any plans to introduce things like this on pve:

  18. Sophittia Well-Known Player

    I don't think the devs have properly thought this through.... unless I'm maybe misunderstanding :p

    Tanks will still be able to cleanse.
    Trolls will still be able to debuff heals, defence, damage etc
    Healers on the other hand..... nothing?

    If I go against a controller, as a healer, I'll still have my heals debuffed and most likely lose as a result. Nothing changes.
    And if a tank goes against a controller, they'll be able to cleanse away any debuffs put on them, giving them an advantage also.
    So really, healers get the short straw here.

    Aside from that, I'm looking forward to balanced gear. That's at least one positive :)
  19. Frankzilla Committed Player

    I thank you for putting this up here because you prove me right. If someone is using a channeled power the only way to counter it is to interrupt it. Since it prevents standard control effects then stuns are out the question too. So like ive been saying and you just proved correct while active there is absolutely nothing you can do and your hypothetical situations where you can prevent any and everybody from activating these mods are impossible. And please dont talk about blocking and shielding because if you are skilled then the direct and correct counter for moves as such are interrupts point blank period. There should be no and hopefully will be no exceptions to this core mechanic.

    Also you like to speak of the vanilla countering system when everything is included in that the only thing ht did was remove vulnerability to interrupt it added nothing skill wise all of the skill been existed. it took skill to excute rolls and channeled powers prior to ht now you benefit from using these moves no risk involved yet being rewarded.
  20. Beta Cell New Player

    I am a relatively new player and a PVP vet of both Champions Online and City of heroes.
    I wont pretend that my opinions hold too much weight here because I am not experienced with with DCUO pvp and have not tried it beyond duels and open world pvp. I intend to delve deeper into pvp after these changes go live.

    For what its worth, I would say that if its the devs goal is to make PVP as accessible as possible and get as many people involved in pvp as possible, then they need to leave HT out.

    1. These kinds of consumables and devices, are made "available to everyone" but the fact is that not every one will have them for various reasons (even RP reasons). This will eliminate some potential PVP participants.

    2. Dealing with these mods and consumables tend to require special strategy that the average noob will not know about and may not understand. The standard DCUO non HT counter strategy is simple taught to the player in PVE making the transition from PVE to PVP less daunting.
    In short the knowledge of how to cope with HT like items in combat (in addition to actuality possessing such items) is another barrier to entry for PVP.

    3. Balancing pvp, especially in super hero games in difficult. The more simple PVP is the more likely the devs are to be able to achieve some level of balance and the less resources it will require to balance.

    4. Truly skilled pvpers (and hard core) will continue to flourish regardless of the level of complexity of PVP.

    5. Champions, COH and seemingly DCUO all had a golden age of pvp, and in every case that golden age was before whatever system that made pvp more complicated came into being.

    TLDR
    In other hero MMOS adding additional layers of complexity via items and gear to PVP divided the PVP community and causeed PVP to shrink in to a small niche hard core crowd.
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