Work in Progress: Combat Balance

Discussion in 'Concluded' started by Spytle, Feb 26, 2014.

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  1. Baryon Boy New Player

    Animations shorter than that will be brought up to 1-1.2 second, and animations longer will be shortened. They have said this, several times, and it's also what the 'normalization' is in animation normalization when they talk about it.

    edit: And now you've met one who doesn't jump cancel Soul Well.
  2. Deepeess New Player

    And why are we taking Kb/mouse vs gamepad speed into consideration?
    if someone uses a controller to play on the pc, its on them they made their choice,
    any game when it comes to min/max will have the kb/mouse as a winner.

    And just to be clear i play on pc using a controller and i have no problem
    if someone is better than me because they use kb/mouse, when i
    start to have a problem with that i will use my kb/mouse.
  3. Baryon Boy New Player

    Never said I don't clip. Did say I don't jump cancel Soul Well. Do occasionally clip it with Boon of Souls though.

    I'm not a no-clipping purist. I clip, I just don't see the need for the ridiculous clipping rotations you see in videos.
    • Like x 3
  4. Ogat New Player

    Soul well is not a channeled ability thus cant be jump cancelled- you can still jump while casting it but you never leave the animation tiill it's finished unless You clip it.
    • Like x 5
  5. winter13 New Player


    I don't use soul well :D

    Even if I did I would use wod to clip as intended on the dps side, and boon of souls when healing. No need for jc.
    • Like x 1
  6. EvilSnake Well-Known Player

    seems to me they didn't put big enough targets and shields over our heads some ppl still wanna bigger hug
    • Like x 2
  7. Invictus2112 New Player

    I... don't even know if I want to jump in on this conversation, but at the same time I may as well. I have a more vested interest in the WM system proper, but the implications of animation normalization and JC revision are... well, they aren't even implications. Crap's gonna change, yo!

    I want to address what I think is a point I haven't, at least, since scanning through this thread (free admission of not having read every page thoroughly, so my apologies.) Actually, two points. Here is the first. Those who are opposed to this change don't appear to be unilateral in why they do, and I think we need them to separate out a bit so they can be responded to in kind. The first are those who are afraid of how powers will be affected. Biggest offenders given appear to be HL and Gadgets (no idea how fair, just naming what has been named most.) Having used fan, I can DEFINITELY see how Fan, AS IT IS, needs it to do anything useful.

    ... So what makes you think it will be as it is? Here is the thing: They could NEVER touch Fan because no matter what they did, it would be jump cancelled. They couldn't buff it into working without JC because you could then JC that result. This is not a singular exception. The fact is, JC as being used for damage, as opposed to the intended role of emergency mobility, is unable to be accounted for in attempts to balance powers. We keep talking about might sets this or buff might that or nerf this power or that set... except the thing that is actually creating discrepancy? It is the degree to which animations cannot be reliably factored into the balance of an attack, power, or powerset. The devs Can. Not. Balance. If JC and these animations stick around as they are. Its just too variable. That is why it is being called "normalization." Because they need a medium, an actual definable system. If they have that? They can actually begin to more readily balance powers, because they know how they will act within the definitions provided. So for those worried about balance... I suggest you hold off. Because this could very well be the prelude to more active balancing.

    The second group, however is... well, they are not incorrect in their concern. This group legitimately enjoys the "speed", for lack of a better term, that the current system of clipping and JC provides. Lets face it, JC'ing some moves can feel fast. I certainly feel more active JC'ing Plasma retch into whatever than leaving it go. I myself could, however, appreciate the shift in tempo. But some don't. Some want it non-stop.

    Unfortunately here, this is the end of the line. You have a couple of months to somehow shift the devs mind, and I think Spytle is showing just how adamant that mind is. It doesn't help if you grant my point above, that doing this can allow the rest of their job to actually be performed in a reliable fashion. So basically... yes, you are right. The game is slowing down, and what you are looking for is being taken away to some degree. All I can say to you is: Just try to imagine how slow you could go before it was too slow. And if it is "no slow?" Then heck, quit. For the sake of whatever you believe in, don't play a game you see as bad.

    One other thing... this could even have consequences for content design. Lets face it, for many people, Nexus and Paradox were "hard", but the wrong kind of hard. One shots, unforgiving enrage timers, and massive stats contributed to a system where the way to win was, in essence, mastering the systems above. Thing is? They HAD to do this for content to be a challenge for these masters, because this mechanic is so undefinable in their job as designers that they really couldn't even make any other mechanics or "gimmicks" to increase difficulty without asking for technical skill. They just couldn't. You have 3 HL dps who have full knowledge of how to clip and JC, you can make all the funny or interesting curveballs you want; they just burn through it before they become an issue.

    It seems many of those posting who are in for the speed of the game also want harder content. If you want harder content at this speed, no negotiation, you are, unfortunately, in the wrong crowd for this game. I wish I had a better answer, but I don't. Not with the circumstances the devs face. BUT, if you are willing to try to adapt to the change in system, I am willing to bet money (not much, too poor, but money) that you will see more challenging content, in a way that both shows your skill in role and in general as a player, and simultaneously can be much more easily shared with others. Again, if your idea of hard is burn or die, they are moving on. But if you can accept a raid that is difficult because of some mechanic, then the devs actually can work more on this because they can have a good definition of what the dps can do in a given amount of time.

    TL;DR: I apologize, it is the Great Wall of Posting, but I just flat out can't summarize this. This is a complex, delicate issue, and if you think that can be addressed in two sentences, then... well, I just am going to have to say you are most likely mistaken.
    • Like x 4
  8. Baryon Boy New Player

    This is A Good Post. Thank you for it.
  9. TrueOlympus New Player

    I think the animation tighten should be adjusted some more.

    0.8s-1.00s

    So slower powers will see a significant improvement and faster powers will not see a great reduction. From my PoV the whole point of tightening the animation times is to make balance easier. The current projected interval imo might be too devastating to some powersets(especially when coupled with the adjustments to Jump Clipping).

    While my suggested interval and the projected interval accomplishes the same thing, I think my suggestion will be received better on many levels and may require less adjustments to upper tier powers. Powers that set up dots should be 1.00s while burst powers that are designed to be fast should be 0.8s (when I say powers in that statement, i mean specific powers and not powersets)
    • Like x 6
  10. Karasawa Loyal Player

    I apologize in advance for not reading every single post in this thread as it has quickly ballooned in size and it's difficult to keep up. Kudos to the devs for actually reading everything.

    While I've gotten used to jump cancels, I can understand that nothing should have a 0.0 animation time. It's a reasonable statement that 0.0 seconds is hard to balance around, lol. However, I think it's also important to look at why jump cancelling has become so prevalent. One big reason is that a lot of channeled powers are pretty bad if NOT jump cancelled.

    For example, it simply doesn't make any sense to sit through the entire Fear Gas animation. It doesn't make sense to sit through an entire Fan, Absorb Heat, or Glacier Flash animation when the damage isn't there AND most of them make you vulnerable to interrupt. I understand that Glacier Flash alone does more damage than a non-channeled power like Frost Snipe but in the time it takes to channel I could do 2 Solar Flames clipped with Frost Snipe instead. Really, I can think of only one channeled power that's worth waiting for in any situation and that's Photon Blast.

    If you slow down jump cancelling I think you should also think about speeding up channeled powers to finish in 1-1.2 seconds as well. Or increase the damage. Or remove the vulnerability to interrupt. Or some combination thereof. Or all of the above!

    Another reason why people jump cancel is that it can turn an otherwise useless power into something useful. For example, Nature DPS used to jump cancel Bloom to speed up their rotations. Why? Because Vine Lash, Briar, and Harvest have horribly slow animations. At some point, someone clever figured out they could use Bloom (something otherwise useless to a DPS) to speed up those animations, increase mobility, and put out more damage. Of course, Bloom is a beneficial power while most channeled powers are offensive. So will the changes to jump cancelling affect only offensive powers (like finishers) or will they also affect beneficial jump cancels (like Bloom)?

    Also, keep in mind that all powers can jump cancel (even Electricity can jump cancel spark barrage). So even if you don't change jump cancels at all, every power will at least be balanced in just having access to a jump cancel.
    • Like x 3
  11. SuperiorMouse New Player

    this is so true. BUT there's nothing wrong with that or him having that stand.

    clipping when used as intended is great. clipping for the purposes it's being used for is not great. i don't care if you think it's fun or not. JCclipping is exploiting a system intended for other uses. and personally i want it only usable for how it's been intended. the players will always find a way to circumvent everything anyhow. i'd rather see the mechanic completely fixed preventing it's exploitation than wait another 3 years to see how this tier of player finds a new way to exploit a semi nerfed incarnation of it. if the devs only partially fix the issue it'll give the players that much more to work with when they find the next way to exploit it. so i'm advocating a hardline by the devs. i don't want a hacked up fix of the system. fix the mechanic completely .5 at least but i'd also like to see 1-1.2 ideally... and then do a proper balance pass so we can finally see what's working properly and what isn't and move on. and if the 5% of players who hate it that much leave over this, good riddance. it's nothing compared to the thousands who've been forced out directly and indirectly because of this escalating pervasive play style. killing off the hyper competitive portion of the player base is a good thing for everyone else. i'd like to see how good these players really are without all their tricks :)
    • Like x 4
  12. Lord Cooler New Player

    Signed up to forum just to write this. me and my friends are playing the game for more than 2 year. and by friends I mean not a few, a few dozens. and I'm one of the creators and moderators of the biggest unofficial forum in my country.(TR)

    You made most of the powers useless now, any dps power could do good in the one we have but no you had to ruin it with an excuse worse than George Bush's attacking Irak excuse.

    So now since you want to earn money make people to change powers like you do all the time here's what we are gonna do.
    Not gonna buy the new dlc, gonna make everyone who know how to do send tickets, not gonna spend a single €. And go back to wow since like you said this game is becoming more like any other games.
    In addition to this, I'm gonna tell some things in my forum about this game.
  13. thelostczarnian New Player

    not really since they are normalizing power animations across the board on ALL powersets so if your powerset of choice gets lower damage its very likely the others will too. lowering the damage out across the board this way might be better than you think since everything feels a lil too easy atm. stuff melts too fast. one fast short combo and most enemies are toast. dont panic unless it goes to test and things are out of line with eachother. dont compare new hl with old hl. compare new hl with the other adjusted sets post dlc 10
    • Like x 1
  14. thelostczarnian New Player

    hl is not getting nerfed...ALL powersets are to be normalized. hl players are just the ones making more noise. that is all
    • Like x 4
  15. thelostczarnian New Player

    finally someone else realizes this will affect all powersets and not just the 4 key rolling hl guys. it will affect everyone just as much. need to see this on test before making major opinions on balance
    • Like x 3
  16. kAiSeR007 Dedicated Player

    Be my guest and try to give any useful feedback instead of downvoting others. That might be actually better than just giving an abstract opinion about others concerns.




    You can define a poop as a natural waste of the livings, but at the end it's still a poop. Call it normalize, nerf or adjusmenet, the result is the same, some powersets will get their damage reduced because of that.

    Anyways, it's really interesting how you say that HL users are just making noise, when their powerset is going to get affected by the animations normalization and the JC adjusement, but then when outrage CD was getting increased you were the first one out there in the forums claiming how could that be! Sometimes people have a very selective memory :D
    • Like x 4
  17. thelostczarnian New Player

    because it takes no skill on k/m to be WAY faster then gamepad. the devs want options. they dont want everyone to feel "forced" into using a k/m in a game designed from the ground up around the gamepad.
    • Like x 1
  18. Dj_T New Player


    Not really hardlight needs to be adjusted to hit alittle harder now if this goes threw, Hardlight was about speed vs hard hitting damage example celestial hits hard and hardlight hits fast and aoe. If jc goes away hardlight will be slower vs a celestial that will be the same, cause celestial doesnt need jc
  19. Radium Devoted Player

    Thats a very good point.

    With this update we could realisticlly be seeing a shifting of what considered "Top Dog" in the game. Mental for example will get a pretty big benefit for animation changes while Gadgets will probably see a decrease.

    Its going to be really interesting in the coming months to see how stuff plays out when powers like that start to have similar times.
  20. thelostczarnian New Player

    i didnt say if shouldnt be increased i said they increased it just a little too much. the cooldown is 0.5 sec longer than the combo animation. mixing in dreadfull is the easy fix but found that you get countered nearly twice as much in fights with multiple bosses. outrage isnt as fun now so i dont use it as much outside of pvp and tanking but i keep up anyway so i dropped it. i had spoken my piece and i was done. nothing wrong with that. the reason i downvoted your post is for the reason that hl is not the only power that will be affected by this. thus i dont agree hl needs a buff to acount for the new cooldowns. did i ask for a buff for outrage? heck no! i said id take a damage hit over the cooldown increase. i was never against a nerf overall. get your facts strait before you call me out ok pal
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