What DC Characters Can't Be Built In DCUO?

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by Olovan, Sep 7, 2013.

  1. SuperiorMouse New Player

    this is not actually possible to do. the game is designed in a way that requires players to use BOTH a combat style (aka weapon) and a powerset together. a player cannot ignore either one and successfully complete content. like, at all.

    again, as has been previously pointed out quite a few times, the brawling animations (the obvious target of this possibility) can easily be replaced with character animations which do not resemble superstrength abilities to help players distinguish the 2 purposes from each other.

    doing this creates MORE opportunity for character customization because it allows superstrength related characters to be built (with the powerset showing superstrength related character animations) and it also allows for non-superstrength related characters who are still physical characters to be built also. characters like the Flash, Black Canary, WildCat.
  2. willflynne 10000 Post Club

    I have to disagree a bit. My Electric character was made more with Healing in mind, and I don't like constantly respeccing my characters so I played around with some loadouts and abilities from the Super Speed movement tree for being in damage mode. Preferred weapon for that role is Dual Wield. I use the movement ability pull when needed, but otherwise lunge in on a target and hit them with the Dervish ability, which carries a nice little damage buff. After that, it's mainly weapon attacks either to stun targets or build up to the 10 combo whirlwind attack in Dual Wield. My Electric moves end up being minimal, mainly the supercharge heal in an emergency or the AOE heal which carries a damage buff similar to the Dervish move when in damage mode.

    Now, while I know this is far from definitive proof, I did a little scoreboard watching while running that character through the Halloween instance. Sticking to my normal attack methods, I was at or near the top of the damage out stat most of the time. Also, even though I had a higher level pair of Hand Blasters to use (my go-to weapon in most cases), I had better results running the Gotham Wastelands content with my lower level Dual Wield weapon.

    Is my method optimal? Heck no, even I will admit to that. But it's effective enough to successfully complete content on a regular basis.
  3. McGhee Well-Known Player

    I appreciate your attempt. However, I have no issue with the weapons (I would like a feral weapon/fighting style but that's for another thread.) My complaint is with the lack of a physical powerset. A powerset with a might & mastery tree. Might would have powerful abilities; Mastery would have quick, efficient abilities. They would enhance weapon types, movement abilities, and iconic powers.

    I don't think a physical power would diminish weapon choice. In fact, the argument for why Earth is the physical power diminishes weapon choice. Proponents of Earth = Physical frequently tell me to use brawling and what my Earth loadout should be. A physical powerset would increase my options. I would get all the abilities from both trees and freedom to use all weapons.

    This is where we (you & I) agree. I agree that the Devs have come up with unique appearances for powers. Maybe that is the problem. It's hard to make the most common superpower new. It's like building a better mousetrap. The Devs have stated that they haven't added a physical power because it wouldn't be visually interesting.So, maybe, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, they could go classic. Base some of the animations on comics drawn by Jack Kirby, John Romita Jr., Will Eisner, Frank Quitely, & George Perez (particularly his Teen Titans work).
  4. Amazon Committed Player


    GOSH Superior Mouse STOP making so much sense :-D

    You make such a good point about is being a "physical" rather the Super Strength power set, and being able to make characters like black canary, wild cat etc etc

    People keep getting so limited with how CoH "did it" and that if DCUO tried to implement it, it would just be "brawling" i don't think its the case, legends and my imagination tells me there is plenty of other ways to represent this pojwerset... EVEN using existing animations.

    Oh and I would love to use this "TANK" power as a celestial type hybriud, changing combos and attacks in a certain way to build defence kinda like aftershocks!
    • Like x 2
  5. willflynne 10000 Post Club

    Thing is, it can be easily argued that the classic style is already in the game. When I think about all the different ways that super strength/physical powers have been represented in various media (comics, cartoons, movies, games, etc) and look at what's in the game, it's all there. Picking up heavy items and using them as weapons? Check (and one of my personal favorites, I still have fun hitting petty criminals with the ATMs they're trying to rob LOL). Powerful hits and kicks? Check. And so on. I think I said it earlier in this thread (or a similar one) but the only super strength move I can think of that we can't do is ripping a light pole out of the ground and using it as a club.
  6. Mr AFK New Player

    here you have, some of them are not in game:[IMG][IMG]
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  7. Neph Dedicated Player

    [IMG]
    • Like x 1
  8. willflynne 10000 Post Club

    But that "limited thinking" argument can be used the other way too. More than once folks have come into these discussions and said something along the lines of "Well City of Heroes and Champions Online had physical/super strength power sets, so DCUO should have them too."

    Problem with that is that DCUO has always done things their own way. The weapon/power combination threw more than a few people off at first, and we still have people coming into the game asking about level caps and when the cap is going to be increased. The more it's discussed, the more I can look at how DCUO did things and say that their version of a physical power set is just another example of them going a little outside the box and doing their own thing.
  9. Invictus2112 New Player

    You know, I normally am not an MMO forum goer, albeit a constant lurker, but this is something I just felt I had to chime in for. So yay, first post.

    Ultimately, I can see both sides of the issue. More importantly, I think SOE can as well. Ultimately, there are alot of moves I think of when I hear super-strength or "might". The obvious ones are, of course, picking up large objects and "hitting really hard." And in that sense, Earth as your base with brawling and the super strength iconic should more than suffice... in appearance. I think many of the concerns raised by Superior Mouse are conflated by not just the lack of an actual moveset, but the fact that the current "go to", Earth, is in a less than admirable place right now. But not just in the sense of doing poor damage, but more importantly, not having a very versatile range of options for a competitive loadout.

    The primary moves I can think of for a potential physical character are Rumblecrush, Localized Tremor, Jackhammer, and Unstoppable. Maybe shards if you are willing to handwave the very precise way you would have fractured the earth (I am fine with it, myself, but it can be a bit odd.) This does not a loadout make, at least one liable to do anything useful. For what it is worth, Rumblecrush and Shards at least is technically a proper combination, when Rumblecrush is working correctly. But it still isn't what I'd call competitive (even with the rest of the works, it takes some great skill and some luck to be competitive with the ranged might build atm.)

    Now, I can't answer for everyone, but I understand why a might set wouldn't come out anytime soon. Whatever the reason, SOE has a coordinated pattern with power sets, and at the least this one would probably not be seen for some time if this pattern is continued. Further, I don't think Earth looking so physical is coincidental. BUT, it needs love, both in the competitive department, but also in terms of how it can build and its options. For example, a physical powerset? I'd be hard-pressed not to see it as an appropriate candidate for a precision build... like Earth. Or rather, Earth as it was kind of explained, but sort of falls flat with only one move, Jackhammer, being both aftershock-able AND all that useful in a loadout. I think SOE can get MUCH more creative with aftershocks. One suggestion I loved reading was that aftershocks be spread around, including to a couple of moves in the Geokinesis tree, AND have both a tap melee and tap ranged option. This would allow for more ideas to help spread "super strong" moves around. Some iconics and bounties demonstrate moves I think would be awesome/vital to helping. The Grundy jump and super-clap, Bizzaro's overhead smash, some of the Magic mentor lvl 15 bestiamorph moves... and a couple of others, one of which I really think of is the classic "fissure strike" or earth carpet pull like Hulk would do. And Reinforce would be better having no real animation (although I COULD accept you pounding your fists into the ground and making it look like you forcibly "attached" the rocks so it could be physical.) Especially considering absorption is a perfectly workable tank mechanic for a physical type, I think this'd go a long way towards a true physical look without need of a whole new set, although I wouldn't mind that either.

    ALSO, super strength, the iconic, deserves to be more than just a gimmick. As a 22, a simple stat buff would go a long way, but also someway to legitimately use it even in actual PvE content would just be awesome. Understandably, that'd also be absurdly difficult.

    As for mastery... err, less sure about that one. Between martial arts and acrobatics, that one is much more thoroughly covered in my mind, but then again, weapons and abilities are not the same thing. Speaking of which, if there WAS a physical set, I would request brawling does NOT get changed. Reason being some strong guys could be more "clean boxing", but some strong character archetypes, like Grundy/Hulk? Yeah, either they smash, or smash really hard. Boxing itself would be fantastic for another weapon, though (for that matter, I'd do ANYTHING for that swift brawling take in legends to be available. Heat vision included. I want as much Kryptonian as possible...)

    Sorry, not a big fan of tl;dr. I will re-express the main point, however, which is that a physical power-set "could" be imitated by Earth, but Earth itself could use some love and imagination to really fill that void. Otherwise, I don't think a physical power-set is that problematic. Sure, it looks like Brawling or Martial Arts. Honestly, there is nothing wrong with taking a swing and then using that swing to build for a different swing. And as for "visually impressive"... I don't know, I'd consider things like Superman's shockwave punch, like in the Ship, and Grundy's Super-Clap and Super Jump to be as impressive as plenty of other things. More than anything, though, I think our current status is that a physical character can "be made", but poorly and unviable in any kind of meaningful content besides lower level alerts and heavily overgeared content.
  10. MIA Philly New Player

    question for you, bane in legends can juice up and be huge and very tall, why are arkillo and kilowog so short? in the comics they are tall and even as NPCs they are tall but as legends you make them super small. cna you please go back and choce one of the NPC heights for these guys and make them that size in legends? i know it can be done as a simple swap of models as they already exixst in the game.



    EDIT: ok so i saw later you said their is a camera issue. doesn't this issue come as a result of the transformation like what you say with bane and Giganta and spectre? if the model is already large isnt a fixed camera on a large toon totally possible? kilowog and arkillon dont change sizes so all youd need to do is create a fixed cam for their size that wont get thrown off by size/height alterations. the ps3 should be able to handle that and then the ps4 should be able to handle the size alterations that are a nightmare currently for those other above mentioned iconics.
  11. Invictus2112 New Player

    I don't find pumped Bane too bad, so mechanically the two big lanterns probably could. Still, they may figure the psychological effect should be reserved for, pardon the pun, big moments, like Bane having level 3 damage.
  12. Invictus2112 New Player

    And now I am beginning to feel I somehow drove everyone away...
  13. Raijin1999 Loyal Player

    You can do a pretty decent Kryptonian if you use a few powers and make a few exceptions.

    Flight, Earth, brawls or MA (usually brawls).

    DPS ---
    Debris field, totem, swoop (w/swooping combos mod), heat vision, low pressure, and either jackhammer, localized trem', gemstone shield, or unstoppable, to set up the PI damage buff for debris field, totem, and I believe tremor, if I recall correctly. This isn't listed in the power description, but totem will do more damage using the same power interaction that boosts debris field's damage.

    Using totem, debris field and heat vision in a steady rotation will allow you to set up slightly better than average dot damage. If you're a might/prec balanced mix, the damage is not too bad and is enough to keep ranged pressure on in cases where it's unsafe to charge into brawl range.

    At range, brawls stomp smash or aerial variant an be spammed again, for slightly better than average single hit damage. You'll want to use melee after using debris field to make the damage bonus count. Totem doesn't need to be used too often, as it has a long cooldown. Pretend it and gemstone are sunstone tech.

    When it's safe to brawl things, make good use of swooping combos, clip brawls long heavy hits with tremor, and rotate the camera often while you carry out your brawl combos. I've done this since I started playing, and with the swooping combos addition to DCUO, you can really keep the pressure on with melee weapons as you become a wrecking ball (it works well with nearly every weapon). Once you get used to rotating the camera while fighting, you can practice splitting a swooping combo between two enemies to play off the tackle effect and CC some mobs. If you land between the two enemies you can follow up with an AOE. Likewise, you can start a heavy combo on one enemy, swoop into another that's creeping toward you, and then use the chained swoop to go back to the initial enemy. Mix in a lunge here and there and you can play this one lightning quick. You rarely would need to use other abilities and it's very power efficient (since the 2nd swoop is free).

    Low pressure may not pull many things in DPS mode, as you're lacking the dom boost, but on its own, it acts like a piercing line AOE that travels about 12 feet wide and straight forward just a few feet short of your max red lock on range. Line up enough enemies and with one use the damage out vs power cost can be nice. Before I deleted my supes clone, I had people laughing their hides off in Gates as I tested low pressure in the opening skirmish, yanking swarms of enemies over and behind me, and away from the giants. Then started gathering them in the center and AOE bombed them till the giants got bored and rushed the gates.

    Tank ---
    Tank mode requires earth's staples - gemstone, jackhammer, unstoppable (somewhat optional depending on the mission), and you'll want low pressure as your pull. With the tank's dominance boost, you'll want to keep swoop (w/combo mod) on hand. Swoops can be used with some precision to toss enemies around like billiard balls. IE, in FOS3 you can knock medics into a corner pocket and separate them without too much trouble, and won't have to touch earthen grip at all.

    Keeping heat vision requires the tac mod that increases your defense while using this channeled power. The trade-off is dropping regenerative shielding. (Worth it, imo).

    Be aware that heat vision's fire dots will overwrite dots placed by a fire tank or dps. You don't want to overwrite their damage if theirs is stronger. You may substitute whirlwind as a spare ability instead, as it does crowd control pretty well. Either way you'll end up with a few spare slots to experiment with.

    Used these loadouts up to Prime. They worked well and showcased Earth's flexibility.
    • Like x 1
  14. ToxicAngelDE Dedicated Player

    i try to do that too on many of my chars but the event is for sure the wrong place to compare numbers...
  15. willflynne 10000 Post Club

    Well, that's why I prefaced it by saying it was far from definitive proof. :D Still, I was able to keep pace with some of the Light characters who were clipping up a storm so there is that.

    Beyond that, it's just seeing how well I can do in other content at my tier level, and so far that setup has worked out for me when I was working on the Ace/Strykers missions and has done okay so far in the Wastelands.
    • Like x 1
  16. Invictus2112 New Player


    Hah, definite proof that some creativity can go a long way! I definitely know you can make something decent with some thought, and I don't mind what we have. I just am thinking of whenever they get a revamp going, for Kryptonians and more pure brawlers.

    As far as Supes clones go, I'd argue the quality of iconic powers like Heat Vision and Freezing Breath hurt more than any state Earth is in. Although I guess tanks at least can find use for them.

    Also, I don't think I've ever noticed this about Swoop Attack. So if you swoop, you have the ability to do it again at no extra cost? What is the window on that?
  17. SuperiorMouse New Player

    there's not much to say to this. if you're not creating a character to be viable in endgame content then there's nothing wrong with that -- but you're essentially not playing the game after level 30 then and ignoring everything released after that.

    i'm happy that you're able to be satisfied with that but have to point out that the avg player wants to play the entire game. they pay to do so and want to be able to build and play the type of character that interests them and play it throughout the entire game and be just as viable as any other character.

    it's not definitive sorry. it's not designed to be remotely challenging; only fun. the last time i went in with my healer i hit a heal 2x. no one else's health dipped below 95% just through normal play without heals.

    so i think this is where your problem on the issue is. you think of these things as weapons instead of thinking of their function. the powerset is the damage type and the weapon is the delivery method. think of them like that. a "weapon" is not actually a weapon in the sense that you're thinking of it. it is a *combat type* and the devs release skin styles for different styles of weapons to create the illusion of different weapon types ie. One Hander has styles for both baseball bats and swords (for now let's ignore the fact that no one uses a sword the way they use a baseball bat). from a gameplay point of view a player must choose a powerset to determine what type of damage their character delivers and then they choose their combat style to deliver it. i'm explaining this because it's important to point out that these 2 pieces of the player package don't diminish each other (by restricting player options for example), they must complement each other (by giving players more options and flexibility). players must also keep in mind the role their character will play (since it determines group play) and they must consider visuals like character animations and visual fx and if those choices will interfere with their character concept.

    so, flash does use a combat type; he uses fist fighting (aka brawling). superman obviously does also. so does WildCat. the problem is they all don't have the same physical abilities but the game forces players to use "brawling" for each of those concepts. on top of that, when choosing a powerset, the character animations and visual fx can be equally immersion breaking. if you build a "flash" inspired character that doesn't punch... it's actually not very flash like at all. the flash is known for doing superfast punches, successive punches and inertia based punches... he also does power stunts like what are found in the movement tree.

    the flash is a good example though because without his physical attacks like the ones mentioned he's not very flash-like... but at least by taking electricity and making him exclusively a dps character you could take powers that at least don't visually break immersion -- you'd only be missing the physicality of the character. but you're still sacrificing functionality because you're restricted to movement powers which are subpar unless you're willing to start making your flash shoot lighting bolts and balls and throw shields and stuff. these are still electric looking attacks which he's often drawn with these days... but he isn't capable of these power stunts -- so you've effectively just created a "batman that shoots fire out his nose" ... sure there are many 13yos who are easily satisfied with that. i'm not one of those personally. you'll have to decide for yourself if you are.

    again, we shouldn't have to pretend there isn't fire, ice or rocks coming out of our characters. i don't want to pay for a product that is supposed to provide a definitive superhero experience and be forced into creating a batman inspired character that shoots fire out of his nose. we shouldn't have to make exceptions. we pay for this product to give us an iconic superhero experience.
  18. willflynne 10000 Post Club

    1. All depends on which definitions one might use, really. For some, "viable" means optimizing everything to the highest possible statistical degree. Going all out and min/maxing your character, for lack of a better term.

    That's just not me, especially due to my preferred play style. LOL I run solo most of the time, so until or unless I get over that, I'm almost always going into the highest tier content I can access undergeared, both in terms of gear AND skill points. So for me, having a viable build means, barring any stupid mistakes on my part, I can run the highest level content available to me without getting knocked out a frustrating number of times. And on the occasions I do run group content, it means holding my own with the person/people I'm partnered with. So far, I've been able to do that.

    2. That's why I prefaced it with saying it wasn't any definitive proof. It was the best comparison available to me. But as I said, in terms of damage I was either at the top or holding my own with other players, many of whom probably had better gear and more skill points than me. Not too shabby, really.

    3. See, personally I always thought Brawling wasn't that great of a choice for a speedster because it can be a bit slow. That's why I went with Dual Wield, to me it's the weapon with the fastest pace to it. Also, the Whirling Dervish move from the Super Speed movement tree gives you a nice little 50% damage buff, the same as Galvanize (from Electricity) when it's used in damage mode. That's nothing to sneeze at. It is the highest among the movement abilities (highest you can get from Flight or Acrobatics is 45%), but even so it's not like you have to settle for a 35% buff if you're using movement abilities to up your damage. But that's getting beside the point a bit.

    I don't just look at the weapons as weapons. I also look at what kind of attacks they give, what they are able to do. And when I look at the attacks that are in the game for physical weapons like Brawling or Martial Arts and compare them to what I experienced in Champions Online and their physical power sets, things match up pretty well. That's why I'm of the mindset that it's already there. Anything I wanted to do in Champions with a physical power can (for the most part) be done with the weapons we can choose. The rest can be filled in with other powers. The devs in this game just went a different path. That's where I'm coming from.

    Two last thoughts, though. First I won't take the "13 year old" comment to heart. :D I've always felt that super hero science is kind of squishy and flexible, so it's not that much of a stretch of the imagination for me to fit in things that might not seem to fit. The only one that's frustrated me so far is trying to justify an Ice character that flies without a propulsion device, but I'll figure it out eventually. LOL

    Secondly, I just wanted to extend some thanks to you. Even though we seem to constantly butt heads and disagree on things, you've always kept it respectful and polite and I've tried my best to do the same. It'd be very easy to degenerate into calling each other names, especially in discussions that can end up going around in circles. So thank you for keeping it cool when dealing with me and my stubborn views on things. :)
    • Like x 1
  19. SuperiorMouse New Player

    sorry, i'm defining endgame viable as "able to play all of the most current endgame content at a given tier level (which includes group content)." ie. if i'm T3 i should be able to complete all t3 content using the concept i want to play without being forced to take powers that break my imagination or technically aren't functional enough to be competitive with my fellow players.

    like i said, i'm happy if you're satisfied with playing solo content using concept builds. i think that's great, but i just think we can both agree most players want to play all of the content and still be able to play how they want while being competitive without sacrificing the concept they want to play as. additionally, if you can't enjoy the type of character you're playing you won't invest in the character and ultimately you won't stick around. the more time a player can invest in their player (style, abilities, etc) the more invested they are... the longer they'll stick with the game. this directly impacts retention numbers.

    i know. i saw that ... just reiterating the point :)

    i agree. but that's my point. brawling doesn't fit well with these types of characters because of the character animations. the brawling animations were made that way to specifically attempt to cover the hole that the lack of a physical powerset creates. if the character animations were more quick and fluid like a boxer or street fight style it would be very difficult for any player to say "hey take earth and brawling and voila" -- but at the same time by designing brawling that way the devs painted themselves in a corner because they still don't have a powerset that a physical layer can functionally use or aesthetically won't break their concept. AND because they made the animations long and drawn out that way it also prevents quick physical characters like WildCat, Black Canary or Flash from being created well because those actions just don't suit them. i probably shouldn't use BC as an example because i know someone will say she can be recreated with Gadgets, acro moves and the sonic iconic powers but even that build leaves her as a low end dps since she can't throw PoT without taking tasers or bombs, again breaking immersion. if there was a physical powerset she could benefit from that but so could Flash.

    okay i didn't do a very good job of explaining what i was bringing up there. i've been playing CO lately myself in my off time. and you brought up how DCUO does stuff differently here so you're willing to give the devs some latititude. ... well yes, DCUO is different because the powerset is seperate component of the player package compared to CO where they're all the same... the powerset must work in conjunction with the weapon in this game. in CO you can take one or the other and remain viable. this is not the case here. so yes, i could build a character that doesn't use powerset powers etc here and relies solely on iconics or movements or even just the weapon but i'm sacrificing my ability to play in groups by doing this because it intentionally cripples my character. again, this is like telling an ice player to not use shield powers -- all of their powers activate their 90% defence bonus but those mitigating shield powers is where the majority of their survivability comes from and without those they can't survive in endgame.

    thankyou. please don't... i was actually being literal when i said that (it wasn't a jab). i was trying to bring you back in your mind to when you were a little kid playing with your action figures (or dolls for some of us) where you would play in the backyard and the grass could be a forest to you and the pebbles or sand became a desert for your playtime. i was being literal when i said if you're a 6 yo or a 13yo you really could do this double think and convince yourself that those flames aren't coming out of Batman's nose or your Superman isn't pooping ice everytime something hits him... but I'm an adult and I can't do that. and as a consumer i don't feel that it's appropriate for a developer or another player to expect me to do that ... we're paying and supporting the product to develop the types of content that we're interested in. so that's why i take exception to those comments that amount to "just pretent X" :|

    of course! lol. i've been posting long enough for anyone reasonable to realize that i don't post abusively. if someone discusses something with me rationally and respectfully i'll always return that level of discussion. on the other hand i don't take crap at all so if they dish it out, i'll finish it ;) (i'm easily trolled this way lol). and thank you for not devolving the conversation either. :)
  20. McGhee Well-Known Player


    I appreciate the help with a creating a Kryptonian. The problem is this is a Kryptonian with Earth powers. I also have loadouts for a Kryptonian infused with crystals (ice) & a Kryptionan overloaded with yellow sun energy (fire). If fact the only powers I haven't figured out how to make a Kryptonian are gadgets & nature.

    I like Earth but Earth ain't Physical. The fact that even proponents agree that a certain loadout & weapons must be used to make Earth into Physical illustrates this. Do you need to use a certain loadout to be Mr. Freeze? What weapons must you use to be a Lantern? Additionally, not everyone wants a Superman. Some of us want a character with a different concept that has a physical power. Some of us that want to recreate established DC characters have to get creative: Electric Hawkman, Gadget Deathstroke, Celestial Solomon Grundy, etc.

    With the next DLC there will be two lantern powersets. If the Devs have enough creativity/material to make two different lantern powersets, surely they can make a physical. The most popular characters are physical. Can the average fan name 10 Red or Blue Lanterns without help? Atriocitus, Vice, Rancorr, Dexter, Bleez, Saint Walker, the Elephant Guy, the dude that is all head? I read the comics and I barely know em. They should be better represented than Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Flash, Hawkman, Bane, Deathstroke, Green Arrow or Solomon Grundy.

    Lantern fans don't attack me. I'm not saying there shouldn't be Red & Blue Lanterns in the game. I'm just say there are more characters with physical powers.
    • Like x 1