Reduced sourcemarks in fos3, why?

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by STsource, Aug 3, 2022.

  1. Proxystar #Perception

    The problem is people misunderstand what "unlimited source" means, they think it means "unlimited instant source mark potential" what it meant was "unlimited ability to run without being locked"; they're not the same thing.
    • Like x 1
  2. Proxystar #Perception

    I run omni multiple times every week and yes, I have had FOS3 pop.
    • Like x 2
  3. Cyclonic Dedicated Player

    I don't know about the rest of you, but...

    I look forward to grinding any other instance when the next double source week pops soon.

    Life will go on.
    • Like x 2
  4. Random Mind Dedicated Player


    Looking forward to grinding... interesting. I'm trying to avoid burnout myself.

    But I agree, life will go on. People will find new ways to get SM and the devs will find new ways to nerf.
    • Like x 2
  5. Ryazan Dedicated Player

    Eh, it was just a random idea I stol- got inspired from another game where if you keep doing the same thing over and over again, the payout keeps getting reduced until it reaches a minimum cap. A hypothetical one for DCUO doesn't need to be that harsh, maybe it keeps getting reduced by 1 mark for every extra run until it reaches a minimum of say... 5, and the reset for diminished raids could be daily maybe.

    Doesn't matter much to me in the end. I've been avoiding spam since the exhausting and tedious experience that was Wonderverse's boss rotation.
    • Like x 2
  6. Hraesvelg Always Right


    It's a winning strategy. It's worked for countless religions and political parties.
    • Like x 4
  7. Proxystar #Perception

    Yeah don't get me wrong, it wasn't that I thought the idea totally sucked or anything, I'm just not sure its workable.I mean I suppose if it started at 10 right and went to 6 and stayed at 6 until daily reset that could work, right :)
    • Like x 1
  8. valiant Villian Well-Known Player

    Explain how this is a problem.
    • Like x 3
  9. Reinheld Devil's Advocate

    Uh, sorry....it is kinda the same thing. When the changes went in, there were runs that were obviously going to be better for gathering source than others. I believe I said as much waaaayyyy back then even. Not sure how it took a year for the devs to realize it (well...it took longer for them to realize HH paid 2x source too....so maybe it's not that surprising), but it did. The goal is to make some runs look less attractive, or spamming less attractive. BTW....it won't work as intended, people will still spam...and they will spam FOS3 and DD....or might move on the next thing that will require 'fixing' like Necro or COU. Jeebus, FVR and FFR are sub 7 or 8 min runs and will hit Omni on the next DLC.....the horror! Better 'fix' those too, right? All this does is penalize those who will end up in those runs legit, especially any runs that DON'T take 5 min....which are most runs.

    Unless...if I get into an FOS3/DD run that takes 20 min due to people either squatting, or having bad players, or people cycling in and out of the revolving door.....I still get 10, right? RIGHT? Oh....ok. Seems like a good fix then.:rolleyes:
    • Like x 2
  10. Tiffany6223 Loyal Player

    I think maybe they view it as a problem because it diverts players away from other content? Idk. I don’t run Omni so I’m not sure how it works. I always thought it was randomized but I guess not.
  11. Reinheld Devil's Advocate

    Seems like it would be a lot more work to figure out some sliding scale vs having some sort of timed lockout. Again, they already figured it out for the world bosses in LLL and WV (can't hit 2 phases and get paid from the same boss), so adding one to the raids (and it should only be raids) should be easy.

    Groups that spam would be hindered a bit...regular people landing in the runs wouldn't know the difference as the lockout could be short enough that even back to back 'normal' runs would be ok.
  12. Reinheld Devil's Advocate

    Uh, yeah, except that if you are relying on landing on these 2 runs via omni...and it getting in on the first pop every time...
    [IMG]
    So kinda the same.....just very different.
    • Like x 1
  13. Light Bender92 Well-Known Player

    I've read your other posts so I know you aren't exactly "excited" about this change and actually somewhat disagree (at least from what I perceive) but this entire post is basically copium. You are desperately trying to justify this unnecessary and frankly anti consumer change.

    We all know the ecosystem is a time-reward system. Until relatively recently, there was no need to really farm source marks in general, but now with the addition of 700 mark pets, and 500 mark allies (that you'd have to farm for on every toon) it has pushed us into a direction where of course people will feel the "need" to farm even if you make the argument that "technically" people don't need to do so. It's the same argument with artifacts. Yes "technically" artifacts are supposed to be year(s) long projects as far as leveling (this was stated by the devs themselves) but we know that PRACTICALLY speaking this isn't the case. It's the same with source marks. When the price of things are so high, of course people are going to find the quickest way to get the currency.

    You then say "the devs don't necessarily want you farming 700 marks in one day" and come on Proxy, this is a lazy agument. For starters the devs have time and time again said that players should get to "play how they want to play" so if some players wish to form groups (i.e. not even over saturating omnibus ques) then that's their prerogative. However, we all know this sent the case. Burnout is a thing, and after 5 runs most people don't want to step foot into an instance again. Some hardcore platers may do 10 runs of one instance, but generally I've seen spam groups begin to break down aft 5+ runs. Why? because regardless of how quick something is, the human brain can only do something so mundane for so long. So to say that even hypothetically a notable percentage of people were farming 700 source marks (which would take 6 (SIX) hours to get if each fos run was perfect, exactly 5 min each time, and qued/walked back in instantly) is a just a non argument.

    Your last 3 paragraphs then basically boils down to one point, and it's that you don't believe players would actually run content even if marks were increased so you feel it was somewhat justifiable to decrease fos. This is absolutely just conjecture and many of us in this thread (including myself) disagree. If the devs worked out a system where we got approximately the same number of marks per hour regardless of the instance, then people wouldn't feel the NEED to farm specific instances. It is not the fault of the player base when one instance takes 5 minutes and another takes 35, and the players choose to do the first. When we have end game weekly content we have to do, as well as dailies, and then on top of that have to farm 500-700 source marks for one item, then of course people will choose the instance that takes less time, because we only have so much time in general. Using the 700 mark example, if people farmed a raid that instead took 30 minutes instead of 5, the time jumps from 6 hours to 35 hours (of continuous play). This is simply not feasible.

    The main point that many of us have is that should other instances be adjusted upward, then we would see a natural reduction in fos spams. If I could just pop omni over and over and be guaranteed consistent marks, you think I wouldn't do that and instead opt to find a group to spam fos every time? They went about this change in the wrong way. I love the Nexus raid for example. If it was tuned to be inline with fos as far as marks per hour, then I would mind running it, as well as other raids that I found enjoyable but are just too long to justify doing when I have other endgame content that I need to run as well.
    • Like x 5
  14. Light Bender92 Well-Known Player

    One easy thing to do (as I'm sure the devs have access to all the data on each instance) would simply be to reward marks based on the length of an instance. Use Fos as a base and extrapolate outwards. Everyone pretty much agrees that the average fos run is 5-6 min (we obviously don't have exact data like the devs but yeah). This equates to about 1 mark per minute. For simplicity sake, you guys don't need to reward marks down to the minute (i.e if one instance is 12 min and another is 17, you don't have to do 12 marks and 17 marks, that would be a bit much), you can simply create ranges. A raid takes <5min on average? it rewards 5 marks. 5-10min rewards 10 marks. 10-15min or 10-20min (depends on how large you want the intervals to be) rewards 15 marks. And so on and so on. This shouldn't be too complicated. To make sure people run the full instances, you could even have the standard 10 marks be spread across each boss and then have a mark box drop upon completion of said raid that gives you the amount of marks needed based on which interval it fell in. This way people don't just farm a couple bosses to hit 10 marks and then leave.
  15. Mepps Sr. Community Manager

    These two instances were enormous outliers. Even if we didn't have the data, this relative outcry from two out of hundreds of instances getting a reward adjusted is evidence enough that these two were enormous outliers needing adjustment. This adjustment is simple, addresses the issue, and doesn't require building new convoluted systems.

    Yes, as a player, it always feels bad when you get less, when it takes longer to get what you want, when your favorite ability is made weaker, when the boss hits harder, when your ally responds differently, or really when any change happens that isn't making you better, faster, stronger. I get it.

    But we didn't make this change lightly. Proxy already did a pretty solid job of explaining what a video game is and why these kinds of balance adjustments are necessary. I don't think most are actually confused about that. I think it is mostly 'I *could* get source marks a lot faster than everywhere else by doing this one thing, and now I can only get source marks a little bit faster than everywhere else by doing this one thing,' and that's certainly a valid disappointment but it isn't valid game design.
    • Like x 12
  16. Reinheld Devil's Advocate

    So in 'slow' runs in these 2 instances.....and yeah, there are slow runs in there...FOS3 especially. We'll get 10, right? Cause otherwise you are changing something for the whole community based off the actions of a handful of players. And we already did that last year.

    These were only enormous outliers if spamming. Many people don't spam, but we will end up in those runs as part of omni or the occasional custom queue. MoM is a enormous outlier in it's under payment too. Any plans to adjust there?
    • Like x 3
  17. zNot Loyal Player

    Im fine with such adjustments the „complain about anything“ folks have been spoiled too much.
    • Like x 3
  18. Kreachure Committed Player

    ?

    I don't think you do. I don't even spam these raids and I understand why this is a bad decision. Most people here don't even have an issue of how fast they get marks or how strong they are. It's that this change seems redundant if you're not going to address the main issues. You have now added a band-aid to a lascerated body. Nice job. The next 2 enormous outliers will be necro, or something else that takes 5-10 mins with a good group. You gonna add another band-aid? Do we just keep nerfing raid rewards until half the raids aren't worth running?

    We just gonna skim over the fact that no matter what you do with FoS3 or Doomsday, dead content is dead content? What will this even change? Nobodys running Arkham Asylum or Coast City for 5 marks when they take longer than most raids. And now nobody will run raids that reward 6 marks, effectively killing these for omnibus and creating more dead content.

    Also what happens to the pugs that take 30+ mins to run FoS3?
    So not only are you punishing endgame players who are already experiencing burnout as it is, but you're punishing people who run omnibus, & new or leveling players who get stuck in a raid for 30-40 mins and get rewarded 6 marks.

    "Time-to-marks ratio" is important right? You said it yourself.

    It's so strange that this non-game-breaking thing was an issue you guys thought to "fix" when this game is a dilapidated mess, filled with issues and inconveniences that are never addressed.

    When 99% of the people commenting on a forum thread agree with each other, maybe you should consider that this wasn't the move.

    "Play how you want to play, but also don't" ~ DCUO Development Team.
    • Like x 9
  19. Hraesvelg Always Right


    If this has been mentioned, I apologize. I did do a bit of skimming.

    I know it's a "new system" that would have to be designed and implemented, but I think probably the most equitable compromise would be a "bonus" that you're locked out of if you run a raid in X amount of time for this outlier raids. Have an initial run be the previous amount, have subsequent runs in the locked time period be the current amount. Should encourage groups to at least raid hop around until whatever time is up. That way it won't lock people out of going in repeatedly for feat attempts, but it would also discourage the spamming aspects.
    • Like x 2
  20. Tree Well-Known Player

    Devs ya’ll did the right thing here and I will commend that and not ask for anything else.
    . And to the players, it isn’t so bad come on now……
    • Like x 3