Stat Clamp Choice

So it is personal....

By the way, my favorite game is Ace Combat 5

Would i be willing to give up my feats? Yes, i would, if that would put us all on a fair playing field. However, knowing that would anger plenty of you, grandfathering you in seems enough like a fair compromise to allow you the benefit to keep what you accumulated over the years, but going forward you will adhere to the rules everyone else now has to follow.

I understand the reason why you want AQS, but the reason why i perferred the clamp, is because AQS further fragments the community, by allowing players once geared enough to avoid having to queue up for older content. Meaning less people filling the queues that need them.

The reason why i couldnt get a group was because under current content, queue times were upward of 30 minutes, i was told to "look for a group/make a group", like players who actually wanted a run where everything didnt get melted within a instant. Now getting a group for a run has been made easier, and the onus of getting a group together for feats has been placed on those who seek them.

Let me be clear...I still want AQS. Clamp or not, If I can get 4, 5 or 6 people who can do a raid and get a feat where BURN BURN BURN is not the answer, I still don't want to have to find those extra 1-3 people to 'fill' my group just because of the 8 requirement. If the group is capable, you should still be able to go in 'short'...if not solo.

And I was talking about feat runs. 'Authentic' challenge runs pre clamp were definitely harder...no one said differently. I'd argue that MOST didn't really want to run something where they'd be stripped of their advances...but either way, yeah...AQS would have helped you too because maybe you'd only need to find a few like minded individuals to tailor a run to your liking. BTW....Are you really being 'challenged' all that much since the clamp? Honestly? For me it seems like you can still pretty much dummy through things and make it as long as there is not a 1 shot mechanic... or other mechanic that 1 or 2 people can continually f up so the group breaks up (BBS...PB...DM card game)...It just.....takes....looooonger now. Feats however...well, don't look for those in Omnis. And if you are worried about the queues not filling, well I guess you don't REALLY believe that the vast majority of the players wanted or needed the clamp/Omni changes. If you did, you wouldn't be worried about me building a short group to knock out feats....something I'd never queue for anyway. There are plenty of noobs to fill your queues.....right?

I'd want what was there before. The drops of old useless gear for styles, collections, briefs/investigations, 0 marks other that what a chooser would provide and yes...the feats that were in there originally. The mantra of 'leave it for now and come back to it later when you are more powerful' was repeated by the devs for years....and it was an understanding that for some who could not accomplish something now, would have the chance to do it later as they grew stronger. When those 2 or 3 SP wouldn't matter as much anyway, or the OP gear or whatever. Well, now that option is removed.

BTW... let me say I'm not expecting an option. Just saying IF there were an option, that's how I'd see it. I'd only want that option with AQS so I could also NOT have to fill a group more than what I needed to complete it...if that was just me, great...if it were 2 other people...also great. If 7....triple great! Many people's complaints about high level people 'facerolling' things and making their runs no fun would have been solved with just that change. As much as people seem to think endgame players really wanted to flex on some noobs 200 CR below them, I'd guess most would have avoided the noobs, making it much more likely they'd have had similar runs to what they are getting post clamp...i.e. without the OP people to 'ruin' things for them.

I was honestly trying to NOT get sucked into this conversation....I seem to have failed.

Here some food for thought! How many times have you qued for omnibus amd have people who que in as a roll not play the role? How many times have you been trying to put a group together and have 2 people send you a tell for an invite where one has 120sp and another have 500sp and you actually chose the one with 120sp?

And yes I do believe if I spent months running things normally and getting our butts kicked we should go back and do the same to them! The difference to all of this is the opinion of myself and othersI have talked to! By saying that, others on this post apparently believe I must list everyone whom I've talked to! Here is another question, out of all the groups you've put together made up of ones who are NOTt your friends or leaguemates how many actually come to chat so everyone can be on the same page? So I say yes I believe anyone who is well past older content should be able to chose , if they as a group agree. People talk about it's fine if you don't want feats and that itself is wrong as well! The fact that people are so afraid of others going back and get feats is a disgusting elitest display! If that's how you feel and it should be done right tgen the free CR jump toons should be taken away as well if it's all about earning it! This whole thing is made to help give feats if not evident in the older styles being given as loot! I mean if you want to make this game really intersting again then we should go back to the loot roll system again!

Again it amazing to see how people have an issues with options and opinions!

Naw I love when you get into it. I value different points of view.
I completely agree that the mantra should stay intact, so what I’m reading is the +15cr and stat bleed isn’t enough to appease that mantra?
I personally love the clamp, but am not unaware how many people don’t. I am always curious as to each individuals reasonings behind their disdain for it, and unlike some I don’t judge the folks that are being honest when they say it makes it too hard. I think it sucks for them most. The people who can still beat it, just takes a little longer, get much less sympathy, and the ones whose only goal is faceroll everything get none. Just like everything else in life there is layers to this, and I would be ignorant to assume that everyone has the same reasons for not liking it.

Half the fun of the forum is getting to choose.

It should be at least 30cr, just to keep us at the level we could have been before the instance left endgame. It’s just bizarre that I’m a lower level in Wonderverse now than I was before House Of Legends launched, let alone Doom.

I thought you were an opponent of choices...you know....options?

For the record, I don't think I've ever said it was 'too hard'. I actually find very little challenge in the runs post clamp...they just take longer. The only difficulty which is added in a random clamped run is added by bad players...not the clamp itself. The bad players were always there, it's just pre-clamp I could sigh and just keep going if I ran with them....now I have to drag them kicking and screaming across the finish line, or just walk out and try again later (my usual choice).

Now, I can admit that some thing might be 'too hard' for some, but I'd also guess opening a jar of pickles is 'too hard' for some. I don't think its the pickles jar fault for that. The metal 1 solo was 'too hard' for some when it first came out as well. I believe that was the players' fault too. It was doable on the weakest of my toons...as long as I knew what I was doing.

EDIT: And no, I'm not trying to offend or make fun of someone with a disability that would prohibit them from opening a pickles jar....for those of you who might go there.

Theres nuance, just some dont really care about it. Im down with options.

Does those options conflict with the solution being posed? If they do, doesn't that defeat the purpose of the solution? Would AQS solve the problem of raid queue popping? No, it allows players to go in smaller groups and the more geared they are the less people they need.

Im viewing it from my view if i was a user of AQS, if i get geared enough after 3 tiers i wouldn't need anyone to queue for old raids because i can just AQS it myself, removing myself entirely from the queue pool once im geared enough. And that one less person filling the queues.

Or the system now where, youll NEVER be leaving the queue pool, unless you strictly stick to pre-made runs.

The stat clamp helped get the queues flowing, and AQS would undo what the stat clamp just did.. If queues didnt pop before because the content was obsolete, Imagine whats it going to be like, if dont even need to wait for someone to queue to get into a instance.

AQS is going to be Mage Boosting Selling Service all over again

The stat clamp had nothing to do with the queues flowing. Adding marks and the 'omni' system did that. You could have introduced those 2 things without the clamp and the queues would be popping like mad (and this time they'd actually stay popped...not cancel 7 out of 10 runs when people decline). Now...do I think we should have gotten marks for old runs we could faceroll? No I do not. The clamp was needed if you wanted marks from old runs or the marks system would have become a bigger joke than what it did anyway (FOS3 Spams, OW bounty farming, 'certain' run source spamming), but make no mistake. If the marks and Omni were removed from the mix, you'd still be waiting for 1000 years to get Bombshell or BBS or DWF to pop. Anyone doing those for 0 marks post clamp would be doing them for feats and feat groups will STILL be made up vs random queue...and those people would NOT be filling your queues...same as if they AQS'd in solo/duo.

Don't believe me? Think back to a year ago when the 'victory' statues were added at the 10 year. I had a dozen toons that had NEVER been through DWF, Inner, UM...mainly because those queues would not pop if I tried over the years (admittedly Its not like I tried every day....but I'd wager I did try some), however with the requirement that I needed to run those to get the statues meant I'd have to run them. Guess what? Suddenly those queues were popping often and I got all my toons the full checklist before the event was over. Was that the clamp? No...it was the fact that 'something' was added as an incentive to run. A statue...a feat...a list to complete (hey that rhymed!), same as the marks and omni reward box is driving people to run the old content via queue now...it's not the clamp.

Exactly correct

Pre stat clamp:
Need feats; hit higher CR than content I need to run and run it over and over till feats complete might take a while but doable because "Progression Matters" (no one wants to be told their level twenty wizard they have played for the last two years can still cast his ninth level spells but all his stats and spell power will be capped at first level now go fight the Lich King (D&D people get it)). If it was an alert/raid I throw together a group from league or asking in chat might take me a half hour tops.

Post stat clamp:
Need feats: CR is irrelevant because stat clamp so be prepared to grind and die endlessly and grind for months to get one feat worth 10 pts. You could wait for a group for hours if your lucky, probably take days or weeks to get a group together since most of league quit over stat clamp (yeah yeah yeah ,good riddance, no one cares, save your breath, I care my friends left) and you can hit up chat for days and be lucky to get two people that might show up.

I marathon gamed over the weakened (9 hours is a lot for me) and watched the same three people asking for the same thing for two straight days. I finally asked if they kept running the same thing and none of them had even gotten a group to run it once. Wow, just wow.

If this doesn't apply to you awesome I am thrilled you have it going so wonderfully for you, but your anecdotal experience does not negate everyone else's experiences.

That one sentence I think encompasses a very legitimate point. You could get feats significantly easier pre-stat clamp and some who did that seem all to happy to pull the ladder up behind them. Worse the ease with which you could get magnitudes of those feats were more like an elevator and now that they have the feats they blew up the elevator and are telling new players "You have to work hard for it like I did." I got the feats, it was easy once you progressed to higher CR than the content which is normal and how progression works. Now it's a relentless grind. Their is a lot of truth to the call out at the gatekeeping, elitism, and prejudiced attitudes from some players at others. Just look at the vitriol spewed at "casuals" with even the word "casual" used like an insult. Sorry that some people live in the real world to and not just in game.

I'm good with casuals and I'm good with the people that play day and night. I'm fine with a full rework of feats since it is true we pre-stat players had a significantly easier time getting them. I would love for stat clamp to be an option and I don't care if they got rid of all rewards since people are just doing it for the feats anyway or for fun. Why does someone else's fun threaten some people?

Yes, I am aware that new content at the highest CR that just came out was mildly harder but you still had the benefit of tons of others right there with you playing the new content so no hours or days waiting for groups to form to run content.

It's would be better for then to just a lot usto share our feats just like our alts. Just add the features tag in the mainframe in our base.
You use replay badges to unlock feats & styles.
Imho so what if I or other got the feats the hard way it's not about us we are done with the old crap.
Yeah there would be people will exposed it to make in game and/or real money, he'll people would just do it for free if you use 1 of these, But if they do the dev's will still make money. Look at the broker yea people prices would change , for some it would be good some would be bad all in all who fricking care it's a game not real life.

Getting some kind of Choice would be extremely nice. I dont care about constantly getting marks from them. Just make it a different difficulty (kinda like how there are event, normal, and elite). Seems pretty pointless to have all this good gear and stats just to be able to use it for a limited number of missions when I get powered down if I go to other areas.

Remove the marks from the equation and the queues would again be dead....people want marks, they don't want the clamp...they endure the clamp to get the marks/rewards....not feats. Go the other way and it's a ghosttown again. Your system requires that payment was added because the vast majority of players didn't want the clamp....the need for marks prove that to be a fact. AQS would have required no changes...still would not....but would allow people to play they want to. This is why it was (and still is) the superior solution we opted not to take. And it still has value for feat runs even with the clamp.

And if AQS made it so people who DON'T want to run random anyway, I'm not sure why you think that would impact you negatively. People would run AQS to get feats, or ensure that a 'one guy can f things up' mechanic goes well. According to you (and many of the pro-clamp), many people only care about running the older content for 'fun' or now...marks too. No one would AQS if they were looking for a challenge, fun or just marks...again except where there is a mechanic one guy can biff up (like ToTD before the recent changes). So if you strongly believe that....why would it matter? The bulk of the population would still random queue... would still omni ...and the queues would still be fine.

Unless you don't really believe that....which it sounds like you don't....which means I and every other anti-clamp person is correct. The needs of the few are outweighing the needs(or wants) of the many....Spock would be saddened...if he could get sad.

Reinheld, despite your well articulated and irrefutable points at nearly every facet, don't bother responding to Solowing.

Solowing has already proven multiple times that he/she is absolutely unwilling to see other people's perspectives regarding the stat clamp except his/her own and anyone who's thoughts don't align with his/hers is wrong. I work with people like this who lack both self-awareness and employ a my-way-or-the-highway mentality and they are the least liked people in my office.

In any case, you're right and Solowing is wrong.

/thread