Trailblazing Guide to Fire

Discussion in 'Oracle’s Database (Guides)' started by Soulburn32, Feb 16, 2013.

  1. FALLEN-ONE Active Player


    Yes, definitely an increase in defense. I wouldn’t put it on par with other tanks but 55 or 60k at max cr is a reasonable ask. Atomic has like 60k without the aura I think, rage has like 65 something k while enraged and ice has like 65k. Earth has 70k with aftershocks. Right now everything is wrong with fire lol speccing 40 extra skill points into critical hits actually hurts you and your group because it makes it much harder to heal and know when not to mention the reliance on crits which actually make it even more difficult to heal as a healer when they proc. The worst you can do as a fire tank is to spec into crits dom&resto for sure. Maybe they could do something like adding in the damage absorbtion mechanic when using burning det, similar to atomic’s aura and make it last for like 14-15 seconds similar to rage’s enraged mechanic. If they do that, the heals need to be increased too... it would be pointless however if they buffed every healing ability but kept defense at a laughable 42k base.
  2. L T Devoted Player

    When I did the tank v tank analysis, I saw that Fire was on par with the other tanks if you increased its restoration by 30% or if you increased it's max defense buff to 80%.

    I guess since Fire tanks haven't complained too much and aren't excluded from content, this is low priority.
  3. VariableFire Loyal Player

    Meh, I just gave up tanking. Last straw and all that.
  4. Darth Piper Loyal Player

    The problem with Fire tanking is that you need to be on the very high end of SPs. I haven't seen any way to increase defense beyond obtaining new, higher level gear and the neck mod (Fortified Assault in my case for survivability when not blocking, casting powers, etc).

    I've tinkered with Resto augments (currently run one resto, one dom in the adaptive augments)... and even have an origins augment at max level that I can switch in if I so desire.

    As to stat points, I've still dumped most into health, but then got my resto up to 100 before worrying too much about dominance (60, at present). Fortunately I have 450 of them to place so I can get some stuff.

    As I've said in a previous post in here the new seemingly go to artifact combo for a Fire tank is to use EoG, Scrap, and Manacles... and then use Pheromone Bloom (iconic) as a supercharge. With appropriate mods and actions, you'll be able to almost continuously keep PB on cooldown which means your EoG will act as an HOT for a brief time too.

    Any other findings you can add, L T?
  5. FALLEN-ONE Active Player

    Interesting... Could be the case. My biggest complaint about fire is the bouncy health bar due to lack of defense and crits from backdraft that make it extremely difficult to know when to heal/how to heal as a healer. I don’t really like the resto approach too much just like I stated earlier because it’s very crit dependent and you could get outperform by somebody who has better RNG and lower resto if they crit at the right time and you don’t with all your resto. Bar drops very very quickly, I’d give it a defense buff and keep resto the same so you actually have the time to use your heals as opposed to just spamming backdraft and clipping bd/stoke just to sustain the incoming damage.
  6. AV Loyal Player


    In terms of healing, Backdraft really isn't doing much in current-tier elite content or anything that matters. None of our self-healing is, for that matter. It's nice for staying topped up and I'd imagine for Dilustel Refractor procs (hard for me to guage that in combat but I do feel like it seems to help) but definitely not something you'd even attempt to use to recover from spike dmg unless safe to taunt and w a hard clip or someone has a death wish. Fire's a straight-up shield/turtle/healthpool tank against anything capable of putting a significant dent in its massive health pool that quickly. There are exceptions with mixed boss + adds situations that make juggling tf out of the adds w physics sometimes being the best option but in general, bosses fall into two categories: i) "This can't kill me in <2-3s unless I srsly **** up a mechanic, so I can usually melee it"; ii) This thing can kill me out of block in seconds and I need to turtle except to pull/shield or to put it on its *** w a counter."

    In general, in serious content vs bosses that put them at risk, fire tanks should be pretty much perma-blocking except to do a shield (clipped), backdraft (preferably clipped with a shield), or a support pet (preferably clipped to a shield and preferably a shielding pet like Boo Jr), or obviously to respond to mechanics. This is doubly true for dangerous boss + dangerous mechanics.

    The bottom line is that no amount of healing focus will prevent us from being at the mercy of our healers. Leaning hard into self-healing costs us where it counts: our giant *** health pool. In the end, we have to trust our healers. We can use bd to spot heal but our first instinct after taking a massive spike of dmg should not be, "I should unblock to heal a few thousand health out of my 15k+ health pool." It's ultimately a drop in the bucket and the practice just sets ourselves up for failure when we're already going to be getting hella overhealed anyways and the damage we'll take while unblocked vastly exceeds the self-healing we can do at the best of times.

    This has never really changed. Fire has always been a shield/turtle tank in anything that matters with timing being critical. Well played, it's an invincible beast; poorly timed rotation/ability use or poor loadout and it's roadkill. I don't feel like it needs any changes.
  7. FALLEN-ONE Active Player

    LOL. I know... I know better that blocki/shield combo with massive health pool is the only viable way to do the elites. I’ve been getting bashed a couple of times by people who can “actively” tank the elites and so do so by healing themselves... and they do so without immolation because of them heals+fire soul combo are powerful enough for them, so I laughed and left. Every time you use your backdraft in a pile of adds or every time you pop your heals you are lucky to break even in terms of health, you won’t heal jack... More often than not you will hit the ground from attempting such stunts and even right after your backdraft refisters in the log. LOL.I was always a strong advocate for blocking through everything since it actually increases your defense given your health pool. What I was saying is that, if devs want to help fire to be a self efficient or at least a semi efficient tanking power they would have to increase from current 43k defense to like 60k to actually be able to gain some health from backdraft and heals since you won’ be getting hit so hard or being one shot from attempting to backdraft in desperate attempts to gain some health back once getting low. And yes, I agree on the timing... As far as changes go, yes it does, at very least fire sould passive needs to go.
    • Like x 2
  8. AV Loyal Player

    L O L dafuq

    Yeah I agree with most of what you're saying but I feel like that big of a def buff combined with our already massive health and solid shielding would be pretty darn OP and feel wrong. Plus, not that I really care about tank dmg since it's a drop in the bucket, but even while blocking, our Immolation, pulls, and dots do a good amount of damage for no work on our part. If they changed anything, I'd rather see additional team-cleanses/protections like on Eternal Flame and a regen on Immolation when attacking enemies are burning. They could probably fix the healing by having bd heals be based on number of enemies affected by the pull (like it sounds like it should be) and by making internal frame a set time instead of a set number of attacks (cuz lol wtf 12 hits when holding 20mobs XD).

    All that said, stacking Dilustel Refractor onto our existing healing abilities is nice. Still not "I don't need no stinking healer" nice but closer to "I'm basically a Paladin" nice.
  9. Darth Piper Loyal Player

    They are trying to get tanks to be more active... and that's where fire tends to fail most. The whole Fire Soul thing is slow to build the defense buff and requires too much to keep it up. It would be one thing if the self heals were better.

    What artifacts do you run? I've got Eye of Gemini, Scrap of the Soul Cloak, and Manacles of Force... all at 160. The other nice thing for self heals is to spend a point in the Iconic Powers tree... Pheromone Bloom. It's saved my behind many times... plus other nearby folks love the SC rebuilding. :)
  10. AV Loyal Player

    The thing with Fire Soul is that even combined with the "def +10% while not blocking" mod, there's nothing to be gained by not blocking unless there's adds to be juggled in order to reduce incoming damage. Like.... our damage is utterly eclipsed by that of even a meh DPS so I don't see the point in playing non-defensively. That said, I do like that it lets us do head math to say "ok, if I keep blocking I'll take more damage than if I unblock to juggle the adds," so it does make fire tanking a lil more dynamic.

    I run Manacles of Force, Dilustel Refractor, and Legionnaire's Sparring AI. Dilustel could be swapped for EoG or Lazarus Pit Water but I like Dilustel. This offers close to the best possible assortment of health/dom buffs. I'm not gonna run Cog or burn SP on weapon mastery but if your team has a heavy prec DPS focus that would be pretty OP. In general, I find our SC's very situational and find I'm never in a situation where I need it and don't have it anyways so I don't care for Scrap/EoG on fire tank, in general. That said, I think Manacles + Scrap + EoG + Neo-Venom Boost would be sexy af depending on how well Neo + Fire Soul + HT stacks, especially with a more SC-buildy loadout

    As for my turtle setup, Unshakable on Manacles is "meh" imo but the shield CD reduction is OP. Most valuable part of Dilustel is the stats but the group heal is ok for helping keep the group topped. Legionnaire's Sparring AI seems deeply underappreciated, especially on fire tank; we're either blocking vs a ton of adds and therefore always getting counter procs or we're fighting a single target and it's easy to farm counter procs, so Sparring AI gives us mad immunity.

    My general loadout is Immolation - Flashpoint (for physics/add juggle/short range taunt) - Backdraft - Phase Dodge - Hard Light Shield (mostly for the clip + to mitigate the extra dmg I'll take for the short time unblocked) - Eternal Fire (for team cleanse/immunity). If I need a single target pull I'll replace Flashpoint with Fireball or Lasso. For trinkets I run Supply, Personal Dampening Field (mostly for the clip), Sidekick, and Boo Junior for the shields. I also run the HT mod that gives you an additional power attack after Phase Dodge, which works surprisingly well in a mod slot that doesn't have much else to offer tank.

    I clip Immolation with PD into PD dash, BD with HLS (timed to even out time shielded), then use dampeners as req'd to clip bd/trinkets w/e HLS is down. Or if things get hairy I'll just go "ahhh" and clip the whole damn tray. I love it cuz there's virtually no time unblocked and, combined with team shields, hardly any time unshielded. The downside is that your health almost never moves, so healer's get used to not having to worry about sudden priority heals. In situations where we can melee, I do staff Overhead Smash clipped to Flashpoint (which sends everything flying 30ft in the air) followed immediately by Backdraft, repeated until everything's dead. This keeps adds permanently controlled.

    Edit: I think tonight I'll try a way more agro approach with Scrap + Eog aimed at keeping Neo-Venom up as much as possible and see how it goes. Could theoretically result in the best mitigation + CC possible. I think the right mods and loadout could sustain this consistently but we'd still only have it active 50% of the time. Maybe still doable by timing shields for when Neo-Venom's offline.
  11. WesPypes3679 Committed Player

    Updated my Fire DPS video. The previous loadout video was a little outdated and I have since improved the damage potential for Fire DPS.

  12. Apolloin Well-Known Player

    Great video Khaos you’re giving me the itch to switch to fire
    • Like x 1
  13. DeitySupreme Steadfast Player

    If you’re going to use 10 second parsers than you have to do at least 2-3 in a row. Your first parser is going to be fluffed because of the initial fireburst. Also, you don’t need both wildfire and flashpoint in the same loadout. You’re better of replacing one of them with robot sidekick.

    Do fire burst wildfire detonate wildfire fireburst wildfire detonate fireburst and so on. You basically have the same effect except you save one loadout spot for robot sidekick. Or you can replace wildfire for flashpoint if you want to be melee.

    And if using eye of Gemini you will net more damage using speed drain than any sc fire has including volcanic calamity. Have t watching the whole thing but had to point that out.

    Edit:
    Finished watching.

    For you might aoe you’re better off using stoke flame over your flashpoint because it adds another aoe dot and it also clips inferno. So you get 2 aoe dots at the same time. No point running both flashpoint and wildfire as I mentioned earlier.

    For single target you’re also better of using inferno instead of the boulder. It’s more about the rotation than anything else. You should be doing:
    inferno >absorb heat >heat vision >absorb heat > overheat > absorb heat > heat vision > absorb heat > repeat.

    The cooldowns don’t seem to work out at first because you can’t use them left to right. You actually need a rotation.


    And for prec single target use:

    Inferno, stoke flame, fiery weapon, overheat, robot sidekick, and speed drain.

    Clip you’re first 3 abilities than use a weapon combo into over heat and use weapon combos until your first 3 powers are if cooldown.

    These are my fire loadouts.
  14. AV Loyal Player


    For serious business, I've yet to find anything outperform Inferno - Heat Vision (Enhanced) - Wildfire - Spontaneous Combustion - Mass Detonation. I use Volcanic Calamity as Scrap + supports running EoG = volcano spam but def agree if someone's running EoG they should run Speed Drain.

    I can't recommend Robot Sidekick in current endgame content (it will die immediately and consistently) but it's great for everything else.
  15. DeitySupreme Steadfast Player

    For aoe I use stoke flame. However some like robot more so that’s an option. And I’ve tried that loadout before but it fell short to the loadout I posted in my edited version of that comment you quoted. It’s a bit more power hungry but the damage is worth it. It’s more in the rotation than anything else. You have to use wildfire between each fireburst and mass det. Also, on the rotations when inferno is off cooldown I will use inferno instead of the wildfire.
  16. AV Loyal Player

    We talking practical or vs training dummy? Because I used to use a rotation like that and in both cases damage increased by ~20-30% when I switched to this one. The one I listed is meant to maximize single target / raid boss damage though and you need a high level Solar Amplifier to get the most of it. That said, would still outperform with a substitute for heat vision and a different artifact.

    Take Robot Sidekick up against Sea Beast (even just non-elite). For that matter, tf yall doin bein close enough to burn stuff with pbaoe in endgame? o_O Good way to get oneshot. Not to be a dick but those aren't serious rotations.
  17. DeitySupreme Steadfast Player


    That last part lost me lol. I have all main dps artifacts for both prec and might maxed. I also have artifacts for all supports maxed out except troll artifacts which I am currently working on. Reason why is that I switch often to test anything and everything that comes to mind. So yes my solar is maxed. And I also have armories for every situation. So I don’t have both my aoe and single target in one armory. Heck I have an aoe, single target and even one that has both. So guess I do have one with both in it. I’ve tested the loadout you did both on dummies and in actual content to see the damage. That’s how I know that the loadouts I posted above are the most optimal for aoe and for single target.
  18. AV Loyal Player


    Aight you do you. Can't say I've seen anything to replicate those findings though and a rotation that forces you to channel that much is simply just not elite ready. Hell... a single channeled power is a liability in elite and you have to walk on glass every time you use it, ready to force cancel and peel. Spending over 90% of your time glued in place just isn't an option and if 3/4 of your rotation is channeled, your output goes to **** in any dynamic, threatening environment compared to any rotation that can be taken full advantage of while staying mobile.
  19. Schimaera Devoted Player


    People dying because they use channeling abilities in elite are not elite ready. First, you basically can cancel most of them, second, when you know the mechanics it's an easy thing to "not use the next ability" if a block or dodge is required.
    Also, I don't know when you last played fire but every of fire's channeled abilities allows you to move.
  20. AV Loyal Player


    I've exclusively played fire since release with a break for a few years. Yes it's not hard to move when channeled... but that doesn't negate the fact that having your channeling constantly interrupted in a rotation that depends almost entirely on channeling for it's DPS is detrimental. This is especially true of Devastating Pulsar, whereby effects 2 and 3 don't proc until late-stage channel.

    Again, you do you for anyone who wants to roll with that.