What exactly does "Elite" mean?

Let's ignore that you are replying to Obsidian for once... Obsidian may express his discontent for certain aspects of the game, but he's expressing the concerns of multiple league mates as well as a plethora of his viewers. To merely write this off as him being personally disappointed is an extreme disservice to other players he may represent. Obviously there are more players that feel the same as he or even I if this topic comes up fairly often. At this point it really comes off as personal attacks towards him and not the argument itself.

Obsidian knows he isn't in control of the game. What are you his counselor? He's merely expressing his opinion. By this logic, when any topic is brought up and you are disagreed with, we should all respond with the same sentiment you are directing towards him. I've seen a lot of your replies, and they are often, ironically, very narcissistic. You often impose your own views as fact, or express sentiments in the same way as Obsidian but because you are on the side of the "Devs" or the "forums" you feel just when in reality it's just your opinion as well. A fine example would be you saying "you need to realize other people play the game" or something like that. The same could be said for you proxy as well as some of you other guys. But it often seems as though despite you guys always saying this, we in the supposed .000001% (or so you like to say) don't deserve a say at ALL, which is ridiculous.

Let's take Obsidian out of the equation and answer a simple question, what does elite mean. PERIOD. None of the semantics. None of the DC apologetics, etc etc. Of something is advertised as elite, what would you expect from it? That's the question at hand here. If the game is TRULY for casuals only and that is the majority consensus then as stated I have no problem with that, but you don't get to market something as ELITE and then say "well there's more casuals". Can't have your cake and eat it too.

I am aware of the population drop but if you actually read my other replies you'd know I acknowledged this and this fact can be booked down to one point: we had no other options. Now we have elite as well as reg and event. If people don't want to run the hard content then they don't have to. This wasn't the case with OC and I can accept that. My logic isn't faulty, your argument is weak.

And you see if this is the case, then I can understand the Devs decision to make them more accessible. My point is that if this is the case why have elite in the first place? If it can be beaten day one same as reg, then what is it's purpose? If it's made to be accessible to elitists and casuals alike, don't market it as a challenge for the top players. Simple.

I would be okay with this if we got a proper challenge. Not even joking. Maybe not taking away EVERYTHING lol that's just cruel. But if we had maybe just OP items and nothing else, no higher stat gear, no extra marks, no nothing I'd be okay. You can't say take away everything though because then it's not fair. People who want a challenge don't deserve to be rewarded for doing said challenge? Lol that's assinine logic. If something was harder and you beat it, you'd expect to be rewarded for it.

1. You're welcome to view my post however you wish that's your prerogative, but ok, let's engage in a debate, because I'm interested where this is going to go.

3. I never said either side of this debate was necessarily right or wrong, what I do expect however is that if you're going to present an argument you do it in a reasonable, rational and logical manner, you also present the argument, not just use terms like "nerf" it or "buff it" without reason; you also can't just sit there and have a rant about how "easy" things are without providing any meaningful feedback.

4. I'm also not writing obsidian off in terms of his opinion in fact I'm critiquing it for what it is.

5. I would be careful about the use of the word "more", there certainly are players that feel the same way as him, the same way as me, the same way as you, the same way as Peter down the street, talking in absolutes is usually errant, using a word such as 'more' cannot be proven. I note the fact you express the term "...as he or even I, if this topic comes up fairly often..." lots of threads and topics come up fairly often it doesn't necessarily mean there is a genuine issue present, let's take for example the $2,000 cash cap for premiums. There's always threads about that, but does that mean there's overwhelming support that it be removed? Of course not.


6. In terms of personal attacks, I'm not actually 'attacking' anyone I'm simply debating with people based on what 'they say', they're the ones saying it; not me. Engaging in a discussion with someone, even robustly, doesn't equate to a personal attack. I do however think it is worth reminding you of one point however and that's this "...leave a game that has been this much apart of my life for 7 years in the hands of half the people that post on these forums..."

That statement is a loaded statement taking a swing at "half an unnamed section of the forum he believes is unfit to provide any meaningful feedback".

With that in mind perhaps I should ask the question, if it's ok for him to speak for a plethora of others, is it ok for me to defend the plethora of other players he just attacked?

7. I'm certainly not anyones counselor, but let's be real here, this is a public discussion forum and people are going to respond to what other people say, having a qualification in human psychiatry or psychology isn't a prerequisite for participation.

For what it's worth I have nearly 10,000 posts on the forum and have been playing this game since beta, so before you think I'm picking on ObsidianChill, I would assure you I debate robustly with all people, irrespective of who they are, based completely upon what they say and I've had lengthy debates with many many people on the forums.

I'll answer the rest of your question in a subsequent post as there's a character limit.

1. Elite content should be the most difficult content in the game, at present the elite content is structurally and fundamentally the most difficult content in the game.

2. The game isn't for casuals anymore than it is for elites, the game is for everyone of all skill brackets and unfortunately, despite what many might assert, all players, of all spectrums have a right to provide feedback on everything.

If we take an example,

Player 1 - is casual stays casual is happy, wants to move to normal starts giving feedback on normal content, suggests it be easier, is told by others it's already easy - genuine feedback whether agreed upon or not, player can either get better or stay in casual

Player 2 - is a normal player, wants to enter elite, cannot complete it, provides feedback on what they feel is too strong

Player 3 - is an elite player thinks normal content is too easy, suggests ways that it should be made harder

Player 4 - is a player capable of completing elite, but still finds it difficult, asks for some things to be made a bit easier.

Player 5 - is a player that finds elite way too easy, asks for everything to be buffed.

Do you see how players can mingle in and out of skill gap windows and still provide feedback that can be considered genuine within other skill gap windows?

3. Difficulty is subjective, I'll make another illustration to show my point here and also go to some length to explain to you how/why the developers monetize the different population bases and why it's so difficult to achieve a point of balance that will please 'everyone' within the designated spectrum window.

Disclaimer - Numbers are just numbers to illustrate the point and are not a representation of the actual community.



As you can see in the illustration above, you might have 10,000 people capable of "by and large" completing end game elite content, in order to maximise your potential income from this pool you need to balance the content to make it a challenge for as many of them as possible while also not disenchanting them.

If you make it too difficult you disenchant people, if you make it too easy you disenchant people, the question however arises in "how many people do you disenchant"... When people are disenchanted they stop spending.

In addition to that, you've probably got a bunch of people in that "end of normal, start of elite" spectrum spending copious amounts of money gearing up not once, but twice. they're buying resets, buying some vendor gear, then also buying elite gear. they're arguably the people playing the game, the longest in that regard.

These are also the ones those 100 at the top look down on and see as unworthy of being in the elite community and again this goes all the way down the spectrum, this is "elitist mentality".

So what I'd like to point out is I've never really advocated for "easy elite" content, I've told elite players to have realistic expectations based on this logic.

I got grilled by ObsidianChill for example for "referring to PANOE" as the perfect raid if the developers were wanting to capture this "window of logic" and I still stand by that statement, because it reinforces the viewpoint.

Obsidian sitting in the top 100 right there for example, while 8,900 other people have a different view on quite how difficult the raid was. I'm not speaking for those 8,900 other people of course I'm merely pointing out their existence.

this position remains the same with all elite content.

Do you think those 8,900 people are necessarily as good as ObsidianChill? Do you think 3,000 of them are? Do you think they don't deserve to be in elite content, because they don't find it quite so easy?

I trust this has explained my position

This is a good point, but over generalized.

What is elitist? Who is beating the content day one? What are their stats? What are their artifacts? What specifically is too easy? None of this has been answered in over 5 pages.

Should elite raids only be beatable after you're fully geared up? Oh, wait, you can't gear up until you get reknown, which you need to get by actually running elite.

Should elite raids require 400+ SP?
Should it be impossible for players with 250 SP because it's too easy for players with 400?
Should OP items be needed to beat elite?
Artifacts at 160 across the board?

See where this is going? Without specific feedback, this entire discussion boils down to untenable personal "feelings," such as "it's too hard," "it's too easy," "it's too boring," etc, which makes its value pretty much null.

I mean, you can ask the devs to eliminate replay badges and completely change the way gearing up and progression is handled, but I doubt that's going to happen anytime soon.

Beating elite on day 1 doesn’t mean as much as your group makeup. How many 250 CRs did you have? With how many skill points? How many OP items did the group have? How many 160 artifacts? Throw us a little context with specifics and we might be having a different discussion. We’re hsving a “feeling-based” discussion and surprise, surprise...we feel differently about it.

Suggested is 247 CR. Go in at minimum (241) and tell me it’s easy. And also, tell me you didn’t see this coming with OP items being normalized and Elite gear (higher stats) becoming a thing. We enter new content higher than we had before. At the end of day 2, I had purples popping at their max item level. It feels like we’re starting on 3rd base. I think we all need to be nerfed a smidge.

This is really ironic. I'm not sure if you've been around here long, but a quick look at certain YouTube channels or past posts would give you a pretty good idea why people say what they say.

I feel like we were synced-up right then, lol

IKR? I was like, "wait, did I double post? Oh, nope." Lol.

This thread is a crapstorm. Everyone has different skill levels with different level artifacts, gear, augments, SP, etc. Perhaps elite is easy to you because you're a good player with everything close or fully maxed out that run exclusively with other good players with everything close or fully maxed out.

Results will always vary with elite content and it's near impossible to cater to every type of player in every type of situation. To be honest they need to bring SM back and actually work on it, so those die hard maxed out players have something to push their limitations without screwing over everyone else. Either that or remove feats from elite so casuals won't really have a reason to run it. Otherwise it'll always be this back and forth between the same people.

I also concur with Hraesvelg, some of you may need to take a break and come back when it's feeling more fresh.

Wel since 2 elite raids coming per episode anyway. Onldy do one as usual and the other super hard with no feats and any extra on progression just add cosmetic/title that is only available in there for beating the raid and let the old SM base items drop in there. Watch how many really run this when there isnt any form of progression tied to it.

But yeah this episodes elite raids are a joke. Normal raid level disguised as elite. When you can clear it with ppl even below 250 you know there is smth wrong with it.

Fun thread.

Thanks Proxy for your analysis, I'm glad we could finally get to the meat and potatoes of this conversation. I find the actuall agree for the most part. I don't believe that elite should be solely for the top 100 so to speak, but it should inspire others to get better, not cater towards the current skill level of that makes sense. People like Obsidian and his league may be outliers, fair enough, but elite shouldn't be beaten day 1 by random groups.

This goes into my reply for shark dental and Plowed. I understand where you guys are coming from and you might not believe it but I agree. If you're in the best league, have the best gear, 400+ so etc and are super skilled then yes elite may be easy for you. My gripe with it this time around is that pug groups that are barely leveled for it are beating it. My first run, I trolled, I was 244 at the time 198 lvl augments, no OP items, 240ish sp. And the other people were in that ball park, the highest person was 248 and that was the tank...

My point is that if content is going to be elite then make it difficult. That's it. I'm not saying this from some high horse or with the max gear possible with the max sp lol. I'm saying this as someone who is just concerned with how easy the supposed elite content is. That's all. I'm not proposing that only a few should have access, but if elite is THIS accessible day one, why call it elite?

What exactly does "Elite" mean? Its not referring to players that's for sure. And I don't say that because I think players aren't elite. It just means "Hard-Mode." There's no such thing as "Elite" in this game. Everyone on this train of "I'm an Elite level player, etc, etc" is missing the point and quite honestly valuing both themselves and this game for more than its worth. This isn't League of Legends, not Overwatch, not an E-Sports game, and it never will be. It's not some crazy MMO with competitions and whatnot. And that's fine. But people need to move on and realize that instead of trying to hold onto to the first few years of the game when things were different. Sorry but its ridiculous to expect the game to cater so specifically to a small number of people. And even then, during those years, it still couldn't compare to the other stuff.

I don't know why there's all this segregation type talk regarding "casual, elite", and whatever else ridiculous label. There's nothing truly "Elite" about "Elite Raids" or "Elite Players". More often than not the "Elite players" are just people that have gotten their gear first and have spent more time in said raids to learn the mechanics. You spend more money, you throw more dollars, you spend more time(goodbye irl social life!) and you're Elite. There's no huge skill correlation there(keyword: huge). Before this gets taken out of context, there exists a skill correlation. But no its not huge. Again, not some crazy E-Sports game. Someone that got to R16 FOS SM while others beat R20. Both parties would be capable of defeating Elite Raids. This resume talk in here is hilarious.

Elite raids are simply harder versions of the raid. That's it. That's what we get. That's the compromise that exists while trying to maintain the ability to monetize and reach a broader audience than a small group of people that like to throw money and farm a bugged out raid when its released to feel "elite."(Sorry, but brag? On DCUO of all games? LOL). You want content where the result is: maybe just about 60 players(just a guessed number) out of the DCUO population beats? WHILE maintaining sufficient monetization and interest? Because you have a desire to feel "Eleeet "? Good luck.

Because maybe 20 people beat the elite raids the first day its not good enough? There's still general audience, not to mention feats. "But..But..But! Elite shouldn't be meant for general audience!" The fact is that it is. Its just not absolutely necessary to move on and get through to the next DLC. Its for people that like a bit more challenge. It was never about that "Only 20 players completed" program. It is still designed towards a more general audience than the small 20 or so that beat it the first day. Is the issue that a lot of people beat the Elite raids the first day? Do we have a number? What fraction of the DC population? Was it of equal difficulty as regular? What CR? What SP? What artifacts? So many factors.

Does SM need to come back? No. SM was hilarious after the first time around. It was recycled. Same old reused/rehashed mechanics. Exploits all around. Player switch glitches, boss glitching. Time Bomb. Mass Terror. There's no end. No better than the Deluge DLC that came out of an event. It should not come back unless its modified to the point that kind of nonsense and redundancy does not happen. Almost forgot, SM apparently had a lack of monetization and interest too. RIP.

If the goal is what's mentioned earlier, that there's about 60(again, just a guessed oddball #) or so people beating content because of its level of difficulty, because that's what "Elite" is, rather than expecting this game to cater so specifically to a minority of people that don't realize this game isn't worth the weight they're putting into it in terms of difficulty and competitiveness, better off quitting or moving on and getting with the program. If that bothers you or you don't like it then maybe find a solution, maybe pay $1000 each to have your own specific content that caters to your needs. Or something. Good luck. It sounds hard, really hard.

1) You can't say this discussion isn't about a separation of players when that is the whole point of elite content in the game. "It's not for everyone" is what has been said of elite content time and time again. It's been a separation from the very inception of of this content in the game.

2) You should check my post history before you spout off anymore nonsense. In the last year, I have only posted on three occasions including last night and today. Not a single one of those posts were directed to your precious "dear leader" NotSoChill. My comments may look like they were directed towards him, but it was much more broad than that. It was directed at everyone who shares a mentality like his.

3) No where did I talk **** about anyone expressing their opinions. I simply put a spotlight on how the minority are trying to change the game for the majority. Something that I find ludicrous because I don't like being ruled by a small self absorbed narcissistic entitled group of cry babies that want things put the way they want without any regard for other people who also should have as much weight to their opinions.

3) McDonalds already has a salad that is just as unhealthy as their Big Mac. Check out these links below. As you can see, the salad is only 20 calories less than the burger... I wouldn't call that a healthy option at all.
https://www.mcdonalds.com/us/en-us/...est-salad-with-buttermilk-crispy-chicken.html
https://www.mcdonalds.com/us/en-us/product/big-mac.html

4) You are entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to contradict your opinion in civil discourse. If you or any other player cannot handle such debates on topics that is on you, not my problem in any way shape or form and I make no apologies for bruised egos. If you think NotSoChill's bitterness towards the forum is justified I challenge you to show how he was being the champion for the game as a whole and not for his little circle of elitists. If the forum as a whole is against a single person, does that make them all in the wrong here? Only a narcissists would say yes to that question.

Never have I stated that only a few people should be able to complete the content. My argument is that I understand that DC isn't some super fancy game, but if you are going to have elite content then it should be just that, elite. I am fine with Elite going away all together if this is truly the consensus on what the game should be. My point still stands, don't market something as "elite" if it isn't. That's dishonest. Obviously the top 60 or so players could beat anything, but pretty much every group I've run with (and I've yet to do a proper league run) has beaten the new raids with very little difficulty. This isn't a matter of segregation, it's a matter of content creation. Either fulfill on the promise you made or don't do it at all. It's that simple.

1. When I say it's not about discrimination, I mean that there aren't a group of elitists sitting on their high chairs saying that they should get content catered to them exclusive. People are willing to teach and others should be willing to gain some skill regardless of whether or not the game is "casual". ESPECIALLY when the Devs themselves said they'd be taking aspects from SM and the difficulty it entailed, and applying that to elite content. If this were the case, forum posts such as mine wouldn't exist.
2. I wasn't talking to you in particular, I was just making an observation. And that observation is that whenever Obsidian sneezes he gets almost the exact reply from multiple people, it gets tiring. Instead of attacking his character, dismantle his argument and cast it aside. I couldn't care less who Obsidian is, how long he's been playing the game, etc. We just so happen to agree in this case. I have disagreed with him before in the past.
3. The minority aren't trying to change things for themselves. We're merely shedding light on the fact that DC is advertising elite as content for the so called "best players" or better yet "content that will challenge you and push you further" and yet it's a slight step up from reg. That's the argument here. Of course it'd be narcissistic of me to think my opinion Trump's the majority and I should get what I want because reasons. But the fact is that that's not the case, and some of you know this isn't the case and are arguing for argument sake. The fact is I'm just calling out the bs that is the current state of elite, period.
3 (again?). I know it does, that's why I made the analogy. My point is they don't actively advertise it as a healthy alternative, and they didn't it promote it as something it was prior to releasing it. With McDonald's I know what I'm getting into, with DC we never know.
4. I have no problem with debate at all, I just find that often times you guys go overboard. As far as your last statement goes in some situations I would say yes, sometimes the majority is wrong. (Not saying anyone here in particular). A prime example would be stats revamp. Many maple were clamoring about DC should just focus on new content and not trying to fundamentally change the game again. I remember if anyone even mentioned something about a "stats revamp" people would run them off the forums saying things like "we'll never go back to pre gu36, get over it" n sure enough stats revamp happened. Just a thought.