W.I.P. Combat Balance - Jump Canceling Solutions

Though i'd fix that for u, now its correct

Well said. I agree with ditching charged holds, but not with damage nerfs. I'm not happy with the proposed rifle grenade nerf. Leave it alone. It's balanced and not advantageous in pvp since you don't see many rifle users. Sure it's a tap block break that does more damage than any other tap, but a hl rage or celestial dps does just as much or more damage for the same time. Some of you might use legends two face and john stewart towards the nerf rifle arguement, but those characters are op for other reasons not related to the rifle. Please keep weapon damage the same devs.

You know, you're absolutely right! *Hits Ignore on Ogat* I feel better already!

Seems like some don't actually care much about how JC affects the game and are only posting for the attention or sake of argument.

Use Pyrokenesis then phantom flames ... overrides not fixed jump canceling fixed ... i bet everyone woulda been happier IJS

Ok so let me interpret how I see Spytles comments. He states why this is a problem. 1 being related to not every power set having equal ability. The other being to much for others to see whats going on and not being able to counter. The second issue will be resolved already when they make all bb channelled. As jumping cancels them so they gain nothing from jc but speed. With home turf mods most moves cant be lunged anyway and this is really a pve technique. As for legends thats a game in its own. Balancing it should be done within itself. Now for his first he said a whole revamp to certain powers to make it fair. I could pick 1 power in every power set that by making it jc could balance that power set to compete with what we currently have. I also play this game and pay to play it just because I see a different side then you doesn't mean I don't have a say.

Spytle said a HL user jump-canceling puts up 2.5 times more damage than a HL user not jump-cancelling. Not 2.5 times more damage than another player using a different power and not jump-cancelling.

gerbal is correct. they all benefit equally the only reason you see the same powers at the top is because of effort. It's easier for some power to top but others take time and investment into making it an extremely formidable power. This is the difference between advance and casual. Altering jump cancel seems to be a hurt to advance players. Not ever power has something that can hit as hard as plague and dreadful blast so in order to make up that damage we use speed.

My point is that, in the original model that Jens Anderson posted, you have before jump cancel and after jump cancel. For some powers such as celestial the before jump cancel damage is sufficient burn to complete odyssey speed feat. But for other powers the jump cancel only equals that of celestial. This creates balance and advance gameplay. Yes I understand jump cancel is not getting removed but if it is slowed down it will lose its efficiency such as phase dodge.

Agreed.

The true method of balance in the game is to give dps classes that can be considered "Weaker" the tools necessary to keep up/do more overall damage (strong weapon/jump cancel/phase dodge/karmic hex/etc). As an example of tools that can help "weaker" dps classes as opposed to stronger dps classes is the current dual wields. For celestial and rage using the charge double throw is minus damage where as with some dps powers it can be plus damage.

The problem with adding people to your ignore list, is that you can't see what they post to "dislike" it. Or reply to correct their craziness.

Last time i checked (pre-Rage) PB was considered the best finisher in the game. Why is that?

Going to repeat this again. The devs are rebalancing the game. You have no say in that. I have no say in that. This has nothing to do with what you or I want -- faster slower ... who cares. The devs have decided that the game needs these changes to rebalance the powersets AND THE CONTENT because players are going through it too quickly. It's impossible to create new content with any challenge or replayability when you have players that use broken mechanics that allow them to melt content faster than it's designed to go down. It doesn't matter what you or I think about that, but I happen to agree.

No, absolutely wrong. Balance is a function and job responsibility of the Devs, not you. They've got a plan. We don't have their plan. Your job is to play and your idea of how the powers or the encounters should be balanced is irrelevant unless someone asks you (there are threads for that already).

The proposed FIXES allows the devs to properly balance encounters and powersets better and more easily in the future (is this repetitive yet?). It does not favour anyone who is bad or lacking anything. It favours what the Devs want for the game and the direction they want it to go in and the audience they want it to be accessible to. Unless you have some game development experience, you're opinion doesn't qualify you to decide if they're going about it the wrong way or not. Again, for the 50th million time... No one is removing jump cancelling. They're removing your ability to misuse it for damage. That is something that was never supposed to be done. So, if you're Top Tier you shouldn't have an issue staying top tier. Deal with it and move on. Fixing jump cancelling is not designed to help anyone keep up better, it's being done to allow the devs to properly pace content for the game's players and to better balance the powersets performance.

Smh. No he's not correct and your statements just disagreed with him. If the powers were balanced they would require the same effort to achieve the same results and player SKILL would be the only variable and that is what would determine who tops the charts.

Omg. You're relying on broken mechanics to perform and you think that's balance. That's a sign that the powersets NEED to be balanced. lol. I've got nothing. Someone with more patience will have to reply to you if they chose to.

I'm sure it ruins their day.

Some folks like Dianna, regardless if I disagree with them, try to put in good developed arguments with gathered evidence they worked at to prove a point. Others throw up opinions and base it as fact. And some few have decided to forego any actual method of argument or debate and made a LOT of ad-hom attacks against both players and developers. Those last few are the ones I filter out through Ignore. They're not even trying to make a cogent argument, they're just spraying negativity everywhere.

There's a lot of people who have chimed in recently and didn't even bother to read the OP for this thread. When I pointed this out, my post regarding their failure to read Spytle's arguments and reasons for the JC revision and dovetail was reported and deleted. That's the kind of people I am just filtering out nowadays, I have stopped bothering trying to debate with them.

The problem with balance in this game is NOT the result of jump canceling. The problem lies in the Might/Precision imbalance.

Here's what needs to be done:

1) Leave jump canceling ALONE! Add in Weapon Mastery as a new mechanic and see how it plays out against current playstyle.

2) Make ALL power based attacks do damage based on that player's MIGHT. ALL weapon attacks/combos should be based on PRECISION. This BS at having some power sets based on precision with others on might is just stupid and causes the biggest issues with viability of those other powers in DPS roles at high level play. The fact is that powers which are Might based are limited in their damage output by the player's power pool and the ability of the Trolls to provide power, whereas Precision powers can keep on trucking with their higher damage output from weapon attacks that require nothing other than the weapon itself. I'm not even going to BEGIN getting into the advantage only needing to mod for one stat gives Precision powers as well.... -_-

While I sympathize with the emotional arguments being used in this thread, it's astounding to me that there is such a widespread tendency to discount and ridicule the actual game developers, pooh-pooh their data, and reject their conclusions simply because of the undesirability of their derived course of actions.

How do you (the metaphoric you) play the game, understanding there are social and mathematical constructs that govern the behavior of the game's parameters and defined reality (i.e the gameplay), trusting that there is a repeatable process of behavior and internal logic laws, without trusting that the developers of the construct can be relied upon to calculate and create the world in the same manner to which you have trained yourself on and become accustomed to?

Either a) you have to accept that at some point you have accepted the frame of construct and pattern as legitimate; or b) you must by nature reject it and therefore cannot continue to accept the previous iterations, current iterations, and hence future iterations as being legitimate.

TLDR= You can't have your cake and eat it too. You either trust the Dev's or you don't. If you don't, how can you justify continuing to play the game?

They will not ONLY slow down JC.
All time animation will be 1-1.2 sec. DoTs power will be faster.
WM will give crit hit. Huge burst tick with a short WM combo(faster then actual DW hold due to GU35).
At the moment, you can do DOX speed feat without JC. Tested(and succeed) 4 times with rage, HL, celestial, mental, nature, gadgets, ice and quantum dps.
ATN, some power need JC and PD(before nerf) to do same damage than comboed power(celestial, rage, HL). But they don't EQUAL them because they consume 2x power. There is no balance if you do same damage but use more power

JC will decrease damage for those power.
But time animation changes and WM will definatlyBOOST them.

The trust must be earned. Not simply because someone has a green name you need to blindly believe everything. I do admit that when I started playing some years ago, I believed what the devs were saying, but over this last year I lost that trust I had in them because of things I failed to understand, such as: multiple buffs/nerfs to paradox and nexus in very short period of time, and what definitely made me lost the trust was the constant nonsense of DW and 1HD buff/nerf during this autumn and winter.

That doesn't mean that I don't like this new changes (at least to certain degree), that means that I'm "afraid" of this changes being a great fiasco. And about why still play the game, well because despite the fact I don't like how some issues are managed, that does'nt mean I don't enjoy logging in and playing with my toons and have some laughs with my league mates in TS. At the end, this is just a game, and the goal is to have fun. The day I don't have fun with it anymore I will quit. This is not my first game, and it won't be the last either

The forum is for developer feedback. We're not here to make friends and sing Kumbaya with eachother. It doesn't matter if the disliked poster doesn't care or never sees it. Disliking it let's everyone else know there's a problem with the post and let's the developers know how others feel about that post.

And ignoring someone who's disliking your posts and potentially dismantling your argument in replies you'll never see, could be bad for you position.

I just pray changes are not made for pvp that ruins PVE. Npc and players are apples and oranges....the blocking mechanics totally ignore this no matter how many fixes we are promised. Again I pray these fixes take into account the an Npc acts, reacts, dictates rules different than players who have to deal with lag, system, issue, animation confusion, and not being able to see control effects...while Npc have no such issues. I worry these fixes will ignore that pvp fixes and PVE fixes should be beta tested with different criteria.....I again serious worry from past practice that PVE will suffer. I am still amazed the pull someone in dcuo must have for pvp....it is the only thing I can think of that you guys have never changed back after tons of complaints ....they must have major pull and to them I finally again state...please r&d with PVE and pvp play as separate issues.....please

I couldnt agree with you more.